Temptation

Why in the Lord's Prayer do we ask God to "lead us not into temptation?" Does God lead us into temptation"

No God does not. It is the way it is written. Basically it is saying "prevent us from being led into temptation"

James 1:13 - Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

This seems pretty clear to me. I believe that God cannot lead us to temptation, but he can lead us away from it.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - No temptation has overtaken you but such as is to common man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Linus said:

J
I believe that God cannot lead us to temptation, but he can lead us away from it.

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I said that too, without using the Bible, but Linus have some frubals for extending my theory.

Thank you Soul. I always try to give a biblical answer for everything around here if I can. Im glad you agree with it.

I try. It's hard to give an answer wthout the bible, but I am getting there.

hmmm....i don't think that G-d is leading us to temptation, necessarily, but The satan is always tempting us in an attempt to test our resolve and to better ourselves.

This seems pretty clear to me. I believe that God cannot lead us to temptation, but he can lead us away from it

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Not to sound disrespectful, but I thought he was a "hands off" kind of god...
(this has be said many times in forums that I have been in about freewill)

Lycan

Or perhaps since god created and does everything, god tempts us as well. God created satan, and therefore indirectly tempts. Or in my opinion, there is no satan, and god is a perfect harmony between good and evil and creates both. Therefore god can and does lead us into temptation. Just another opinion.

I'm sure No*s with his knowledge of Greek could explain this better than I, but here's something from the Catechism:

This petition goes to the root of the preceding one, for our sins result from our consenting to temptation; we therefore ask our Father not to "lead" us into temptation. It is difficult to translate the Greek verb used by a single English word: the Greek means both "do not allow us to enter into temptation" and "do not let us yield to temptation." "God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one"; on the contrary, he wants to set us free from evil. We ask him not to allow us to take the way that leads to sin. We are engaged in the battle "between flesh and spirit"; this petition implores the Spirit of discernment and strength.

"Lead us not into temptation" implies a decision of the heart: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. . . . No one can serve two masters." "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." In this assent to the Holy Spirit the Father gives us strength. "No testing has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, so that you may be able to endure it."

No God does not. It is the way it is written. Basically it is saying "prevent us from being led into temptation"

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Thats not what the quote says and there is nothing in the prayer to lead anyone to believe that is it`s intent.

The fact that the Bible contradicts the prayer means nothing considering the Bible makes a habit out of contradicting even itself.

The Bible itself speaks of God leading others into temptation.
The Pharoah
Job

I think what they mean is that "God" is supposedly leading us at all times......and they are asking not to be "allowed" to go that route.

linwood said:

The Bible itself speaks of God leading others into temptation.
The Pharoah
Job

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Could you give some passages or something where it says that God tempted these two?

Linus said:

Could you give some passages or something where it says that God tempted these two?

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Lets not split hairs Linus.
We`re both familiar with the stories as told in scripture and I`m already aware of your arguments.

God Hardened the Pharoah heart so he would not release the Hebrews.
I would call this leading into temptation, in fact I`d call that locking him into temptation.

Job was tempted by God to renounce his faith.

You will say it was not God but Satan, however God was complicit in the endeavour considering it was his idea in the first place and Satan at the time was the servant of God doing his bidding.

I just wanted to see if we were on the same page, Linwood. I obviously disagree with you, but I don't want to debate the specifics of it all here. However, I will say a few things about what you have stated in order to show you that God does not contradict himself.

Job
There is a thread on this topic elsewhere, so I will not go into it very deeply. I will say that Job was not tempted, but rather tested. His faith was knowingly and confidently tested by God to show satan that Job would never forsake Him. Our faith is tested daily, and it is something God encourages and knows will benefit us.

Pharoah
We can already see from the beginning of Exodus that Pharoah does not want to let the Israelites out of Egypt. If he wanted them out he would have tried it earlier. Pharoah had alredy hardened his own heart. With that in mind, we read in Romans chapter 1 about a time when God "gave them over" to sin. He gave a group of people over to "impurity", "degrading passions", and "a depraved mind." Why would he do this? We read in the earlier verses that they already knew God, yet they refused to give Him the glory that is due Him. The same thing is happeneing here with the Egyptian Pharoah. God knew that Pharoah wasn't going to let the Israelites out of Egypt, So God decided to teach Him a lesson. God wanted to prove to the Egyptians that HE is the LORD, and that all glory should be Given to Him.

Exodus 14:4 - Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." And they did so.

God does not lead or "lock" anyone into temptation. He knows our hearts though. He knows our intentions. But He will not tempt us.

That's about as neatly as I can sum it up.

Linus said:

Job
There is a thread on this topic elsewhere, so I will not go into it very deeply. I will say that Job was not tempted, but rather tested. His faith was knowingly and confidently tested by God to show satan that Job would never forsake Him. Our faith is tested daily, and it is something God encourages and knows will benefit us.

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I`ll agree he was tested.
The testing method was temptation.

Your faith is tested daily as you say, I submit it is tested by temptation of one kind or another.

Your temptation is not to my knowledge directly generated by Gods actions but Jobs was.

Pharoah

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We can already see from the beginning of Exodus that Pharoah does not want to let the Israelites out of Egypt. If he wanted them out he would have tried it earlier.

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Agreed

Pharoah had alredy hardened his own heart.

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Also agreed but you fail to mention that Moses and Arrons displays to the Pharoah did indeed soften his heart.
That last plague pretty much did him in but God went and "hardened his heart for the 4th or 5th time.
God did not allow Pharoah to change his mind/heart.
I understand that you cannot allow yourself to believe this since if you do the only conclusion that can be drawn is that God is a vindictive, maniacal, egomaniac.

God knew that Pharoah wasn't going to let the Israelites out of Egypt, So God decided to teach Him a lesson. God wanted to prove to the Egyptians that HE is the LORD, and that all glory should be Given to Him.

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Not true.
I submit God intentional kept hardening Pharoahs heart in ordser to display his own power.
Pharoah was locked into that temptation by God himself.

I don`t need to debate this one again either but just answer one question for me.

If as you say Pharoah already had a hardened heart against releasing the Isrealites why did God feel he had to go out of his way to Harden Pharoahs heart not once, not twice, not thrice, but numerous times?

What was the purpose?

Im not going to bicker with you over opinions, but I will attempt to answer your question.

linwood said:

I submit God intentional kept hardening Pharoahs heart in ordser to display his own power.
Pharoah was locked into that temptation by God himself.

I don`t need to debate this one again either but just answer one question for me.

If as you say Pharoah already had a hardened heart against releasing the Isrealites why did God feel he had to go out of his way to Harden Pharoahs heart not once, not twice, not thrice, but numerous times?

What was the purpose?

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Did you read the passage at the end of my post?

Exodus 14:4 - Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." And they did so.

I think it answers the question perfectly. You're right in that God does harden Pharoah's heart in order to show His power, but that is only part of it. It says directly in that passage that He wants honor, so that the Egyptians will know who He is. That was the purpose. That was why He hardened his heart. Does this help?

I think it answers the question perfectly. You're right in that God does harden Pharoah's heart in order to show His power, but that is only part of it. It says directly in that passage that He wants honor, so that the Egyptians will know who He is. That was the purpose. That was why He hardened his heart. Does this help?

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Not really since it pretty much validates what I said when I spoke of God being ..
"...the only conclusion that can be drawn is that God is a vindictive, maniacal, egomaniac."

You`re saying God did this because..

1: He wanted to show his power.
2: He wants honor.
2: He wanted the Pharoah to know who he was.

Pretty self centered it seems.

yes, I know it`s not the point of the debate.

As far as the point of the debate goes we`ll have to agree to disagree

I agree with you that God is selfish. The difference in opinions lies in the fact that I think God deserves to be selfish, and you just think He is being vindictive. I believe we owe Him everything He wants. You do not. This is where we will have to agree to disagree.