question for disbelievers

lava said:

yes, i could be anyone. therefor i am someone!
your idea of being exposed by people around me is not the reason. maybe it is part of it but just a detail cos i donot have religious parents.
i donot think it is that simple.

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The religion one chooses may not merely be based on what your parents believed.

Perhaps belief could be gained through schooling, where there is an exposure to many major religions. Perhaps your friends were of that religion. Perhaps your extended family took you to church. Perhaps your first long-term girlfriend was of that religion. I don't know your circumstances, but they are all plausible psychological explanations for your belief.

lava said:

there is fake gold, but that doesnot make the real one cheap.

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That is a good point, but how many of us are knowledgeable enough to spot fake gold from the real deal?

Seyorni said:

This is a string of non sequiturs, Lava. I see no reasonable basis for your conclusions.

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reasonable basis? that would be faith within my heart. i can never share that. it is not possible. only a heart could offer that.
those reasonable conclusions are interpretions of possible experiences, reasons why.
in other words i can never say i would give proof. that is actually one of the things you'd -never- hear from me.

rojse said:

That is a good point, but how many of us are knowledgeable enough to spot fake gold from the real deal?

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to have a sincere wish to reach out who created you would be enough. in my knowledge this information is called "the heart of Qur'an"

a sincere wish from heart.

i'll try to explain how it works.
there are messengers all around the world. those are some people who were given duty by Allah. they did reach Allah and they saw the Creator and they can have naswers from Allah directly. below them there are Murshidas who's related to Messengers. we take these men as our Masters.
there are some people who claim they are Murshidas but they are not. they decieve people and spread their own words as Allahs' therefor there are violant acts come from those people. there is no way a Murshida give any hateful thoughts to people. fake ones do it and unfortunately people buy it.

you know that Islamic prayer they do in Mosques -bowing down...ect that is the daily salaat. there is this special salaat. if one wants to reach Allah then he does that salaat and makes his request to have his Murshida to reach Allah. here, sincerety truely matters. that request has to come from heart. whoever does that would have a dream. he'd see a complete stranger in his dream. that stranger is Murshida. he cannot find that person. Murshida finds him. but he would recognise him when they meet and there wouldnot be doubts. that is the -only- way how people find their Masters in Islam. the rest, who's decieved by fools don't do that salaat. they just follow fake promise of an ordinary man. that is sad. cos those people usually abused for a liars' interest and led by someone elses' ideology.

YmirGF said:

Hiya Lava,

I just wanted to give you some encouragment. For some odd reason you have drawn some of the brightest minds represented here on RF. Be patient with them and be patient with yourself. You are doing just fine. If you need any help expressing your ideas in English my message box is always open and I would be happy to help as I can.

On that note, I will turn the discussion over to Doppelganger, Seyorni and Jay because they are asking the questions and making the points that I would. I will watch this thread for a bit and see how things go. The main thing is not to become frustrated too much over what they are saying but rather, try to understand their particular standpoints. There is much knowledge therein.

Your friend in the Light,

Paul/YmirGF

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very thoughtful and lovely. thank you.
you know we are equal people who's just talking. there is no harm or difficulty.

What do you mean by "I"? Please be very, very specific.

i mean nothing but there are tools that i would call i, myself, mine. cos they are tools given to me.

I: my body, flesh and bones just like many animals. its internal functions are free from me. all of its organs work on its own. i can't control them. a cat eats, its stomach digests. same with mine. if my brain doesnot let me know i wouldnot even realise if i was on fire, i wouldnot feel pain without its warning. i am a slave of this body. that makes me think.

I: my mind, where i collect thoughts, visions, smells, some memories...etc i consider mind as a page.

I: my inner voice, which's divided in 2. so always there are two invitations i have each moment. one invites me to follow my ego and the other invites me to follow my conscience. "I" who choses between those 2 is neutral, silent. therefor i can say i mean nothing.

I: intellect, the most valuable tool. whether conscience takes over intellect or ego does.

How do you know that? You've only experienced "death" in the symbolic anticipation of it, right?

everyone dies. 100 years later, you and i would probably be dust. do you have doubts about it? death is not a symbol. it is a physical fact. even earth is getting old, suns as well. i am unsure, maybe i didnot undertand your question.

Isn't that easily explained by the presence of time as a feature of our experience of our selves? BTW, by "eternity" do you mean time stretching out before and beyond forever or do you mean timelessness? Which of those have you personally experienced as opposed to "thought" about? What was the experience?

i couldnot understand the first question, sorry.
what i understand from eternity is forever. the intellect we have is able to think and understand "forever" without being eternal or immortal in the only place we know, the earth. i know i would die and my life would end. in my daily life everything ends. the end happens all the time. day ends, happiness ends, exam ends, movie ends...etc so why this intellect is -able- to think of endlessness?

That doesn't seem to follow to me. Can you elaborate on why life ending necessitates "one final consequence"?

well, i might invent some words in English to answer this.
i kinda have a hologramic point of view about this. i donot have deep knowldge about hologramic universe. i just think that it is some kind of integration. there are maybe billions of actions i made in a life time. whether i noticed or not each of them has a result. to sit on the left or the right side of the bus might change persons' whole life.

death is the result of being born. so all of those stuff between birth and death appears to be one single action. when life ends a life with all the details in it integrate.

lava said:

to have a sincere wish to reach out who created you would be enough. in my knowledge this information is called "the heart of Qur'an"

a sincere wish from heart.

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Firstly, many people have joined cults before, with varying levels of consequence. I don't have to go into details of what has happened in cults before.

I would assume that some of those reached out sincerely for guidance. Where did they end up?

Mere sincerity does not mean that you will receive guidance.

rojse said:

I would assume that some of those reached out sincerely for guidance. Where did they end up?

Mere sincerity does not mean that you will receive guidance.

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probably in heaven.

sincerity is needed to receive guidance. this is a place where we have free wills therefor one has to ask for it.

lava said:

reasonable basis? that would be faith within my heart. i can never share that. it is not possible. only a heart could offer that.
those reasonable conclusions are interpretations of possible experiences, reasons why.
in other words i can never say i would give proof. that is actually one of the things you'd -never- hear from me.

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If faith within one's heart were a reasonable basis for belief then one must acknowledge all faiths as equal -- and equally plausible. Everyone 'feels' he is right.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Lava, but you seem to be saying that your religion is right because you feel it is right.

What I'm saying is that feeling is an unreliable yardstick. Faith, by definition, is belief in something without adequate evidence to believe (cf: 'knowledge').

None of us, my friend, can argue against your faith; against your feelings. What we're trying to get you to do is to critically analyze your beliefs and their origins.

Seyorni said:

If faith within one's heart were a reasonable basis for belief then one must acknowledge all faiths as equal -- and equally plausible. Everyone 'feels' he is right.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Lava, but you seem to be saying that your religion is right because you feel it is right.

What I'm saying is that feeling is an unreliable yardstick. Faith, by definition, is belief in something without adequate evidence to believe (cf: 'knowledge').

None of us, my friend, can argue against your faith; against your feelings. What we're trying to get you to do is to critically analyze your beliefs and their origins.

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Nicely put ...

lava said:

reasonable basis? that would be faith within my heart. i can never share that. it is not possible. only a heart could offer that.

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That may be a basis, but not a reasonable basis. It's pretty much the opposite of a reasonable basis.

Seyorni said:

If faith within one's heart were a reasonable basis for belief then one must acknowledge all faiths as equal -- and equally plausible. Everyone 'feels' he is right.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Lava, but you seem to be saying that your religion is right because you feel it is right.

What I'm saying is that feeling is an unreliable yardstick. Faith, by definition, is belief in something without adequate evidence to believe (cf: 'knowledge').

None of us, my friend, can argue against your faith; against your feelings. What we're trying to get you to do is to critically analyze your beliefs and their origins.

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yes. we are equal.
i believe my english caused this misunderstanding.
you have fatih in one thing and i have faith in another thing. we both know that. according to our different faiths we naturally have different interpretations of the same material.
i have (still learning) the knowledge that comes from my Master, Qur'an, hadiths and some messengers' books.
you have your sources
i guess we all agree here.

months ago i gave the same example to a young boy. that's an incident that happened a few years ago. i guess she was an American citizen. this lady had dream, in her dream a date was written with clouds in the sky. she knew it was the date of the end. after having that dream she devoted herself to warn people. she was telling everyone that world would end on that date.
if she and i had a chance to talk, i would tell what i have in my knowledge. that date was too soon. there were dozens of incidents expected to happen before the end such as Middle East War. there are hundreds of hadiths about it. anyways, that lady died on the exact date she talked about. she was right about one thing. world ended but only for her. ok, maybe she didnot accept Islam, maybe she was not even religous at all. but this is simple logic. death of a person is his Apocalyps. the end of the universe is completely another issue. world as we know it ends when we die. this is an example for what i mean by interpretation. imo everyone deserves to hear at least once. whether you have faith in God or not. that is what i am saying. that's also what i name reasonable.

lava said:

... everyone deserves to hear at least once. whether you have faith in God or not. that is what i am saying.

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You impress me as a lovely and noble person.

lava said:

hi,

why don't you believe in God?

i really like to know what makes you feel and think that way.

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I have logic, science and common sense therefor I have no need for a God to persuade me to be a good person

darkpenguin said:

I have logic, science and common sense therefor I have no need for a God to persuade me to be a good person

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i disgree with that understanding that claims "faith" is a result of a need.

lava said:

i disgree with that understanding that claims "faith" is a result of a need.

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Actually, I suspect that faith is a 'need', i.e., a necessary construction mechanism.

Jay said:

Actually, I suspect that faith is a 'need', i.e., a necessary construction mechanism.

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i have eyes so i can see. i need those eyes to see yet that doesnot mean my eyes made what i see reality. with or without my ability to see, there is an unchangable reality that does not depend on anyone.

I follow different Gods, I used to be lutheran christian, but it felt so hollow... like no one really cared, and just went through the motions, but with my path, i maintain a connection to the gods through the death essence.

BFD_Zayl said:

I follow different Gods, I used to be lutheran christian, but it felt so hollow... like no one really cared, and just went through the motions, but with my path, i maintain a connection to the gods through the death essence.

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world is hollow if you ask me.

1 is special number to me. sure this is my personal way of thinking.

i know i have one heart. just one heart to love. i can't divide my heart in to pieces to love. if i had one heart to fill with love, it has to be One Love. that is the love i feel for the One God, One Creator of all. if i love (and i do) love people, nature and animals, it is because they were created by one God. they are all art of Allah. i love them cos of one love that i feel for Allah. otherwise i would be like a broken mirror. i would need some personal reasons to love. like "i love this guy cos he is black." or "i love this kid cos he shows me respect." i am not willing to do that. to love creatures just because i am similiar with them or becasue they make me feel better. that is selfish.

to have faith in many Gods naturally divides my heart into several pieces. me says, if you have one heart, settle -ONE LOVE- within. that leads me to one God of all.

lava said:

Jay said:

lava said:

i disgree with that understanding that claims "faith" is a result of a need.

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Actually, I suspect that faith is a 'need', i.e., a necessary construction mechanism.

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i have eyes so i can see. i need those eyes to see yet that doesnot mean my eyes made what i see reality. with or without my ability to see, there is an unchangable reality that does not depend on anyone.

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Excellent metaphor -- when fully explored. There is plenty of evidence pointing to the gross fallibility of eyewitness testimony.