DeepShadow
White Crow
Interesting chiasmus...was it intentional? I agree with you wholeheartedly as far as I understand you. In keeping with the OP, what are your thoughts regarding the Book of Mormon's explanation of the first and second death?
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Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?
- Thread starter madhatter85
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Interesting chiasmus...was it intentional? I agree with you wholeheartedly as far as I understand you. In keeping with the OP, what are your thoughts regarding the Book of Mormon's explanation of the first and second death?
Melissa G
Non Veritas Verba Amanda
What? For saying she'll debate you when she finds the time?
Don't you have any life off the internet then ? I do.
Melissa
Right off the top of my head, I see some chiastic structure in the "immortal becomes mortal" (i.e. The Fall) vs. "mortal becomes immortal" (i.e. the Second Coming) dichotomy in the Bible, and that encompasses two entire Testaments. I'm sure you could find other chiastic elements if you cared to look.
But it'd be helpful for me if you could point out where this "megachiasmus" is so I can examine it for myself. Do you have chapter and verse?
What are you saying it implies then? I thought the whole thing that you and Soy were trying to show is that the Book of Mormon was divinely inspired. No straw man was intended; if you're trying to imply something else, please let me know what it is.
I'm saying that, when approaching this with the mindset of a skeptic, I start with the explanations that require no supernatural agent.
One possibility that does occur to me is that Smith wrote what he wrote, and later on, Mormon believers examined the text to see what literary structures could be found within it, not particularily caring what was found, as long as it seemed special in some way. I have a suspicion that if it weren't "megachiasmus", we'd be talking about "megaparallelism"... and if his writing didn't happen to fit Bedouin poetry (whatever the form for that is), that we'd be discussing some section where Smith accidentally fell into iambic pentameter or quatrain.
Look close enough at any text and you'll find weird coincidences; the Bible Code people have used this quirk of statistics to sell books for years. What I'd personally like to see is some evidence that these seeming coincidences were placed there on purpose, or that something about the nature or magnitude of them is so great that it would be virtually impossible for it to be a chance occurence.
You (or perhaps someone else... I've started to lose track of who said what here) said that Biblical chiasmus was not known in Joseph Smith's time. It is known now, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it here. At what point did Biblical chiasmus become known? Who found it, and when?
SoyLeche
meh...
Again, we aren't talking about simple chiasms. Check out the FARMS link and the JeffLindsay link that I provided earlier. JeffLindsay has a couple of them diagramed out.
It implies that the text has ancient roots - that it is very unlikely that it was written in the 1800s. Chiasmus itself has little to do, really, with whether or not it was inspired. It is only connected because if it shows that it is extremely unlikely that Joseph Smith wrote the book, then you've got to look for other explanations, one of which is that he was telling the truth about where it came from.
Again, check out the links I provided a while back. They can educate you better then I can. Apparently the JeffLindsay article has a link to a recent study on how "likely" it is that these chiasms occured by chance. I haven't looked into that yet.
Comprehend
Res Ipsa Loquitur
Melissa G
Non Veritas Verba Amanda
Comprehend, you should buy a Tissot, first class watches, and very quiet.
The grammatical structure of the book of Mormon isn't a concern of mine. Quite clearly whoever penned it would of used the KJ translation of the bible as model.. It's well known that Jame's translators, worked from both greek and hebrew. The Blochs. for instance, in a new translation of the hebrew of the Song of Songs used a third less words than the KJV.
My point is, the KJV does not fully reflect the original texts as they were written.
Melissa G
The grammatical structure of the book of Mormon isn't a concern of mine. Quite clearly whoever penned it would of used the KJ translation of the bible as model.. It's well known that Jame's translators, worked from both greek and hebrew. The Blochs. for instance, in a new translation of the hebrew of the Song of Songs used a third less words than the KJV.
My point is, the KJV does not fully reflect the original texts as they were written.
Melissa G
DeepShadow
White Crow
Too bad. If it was, you'd know that this:
...is demonstrably false. As I've been saying, the Book of Mormon contains several grammatical and narrative structures that don't exist in the Bible. How is that possible if the Bible was the original model?
Interesting...but irrelevant.
What does this mean for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon?
DeepShadow
White Crow
Okay, I dug this out of an old correspondence, so we can start with it and I'll provide more details as requested:
To examine the complexity of BoM chiasmus, it stands to reason we should look at the most complex sample we can find. Unfortunately, it's over forty pages long, so I'll have to stick to the high points.
In 1st Nephi chapter one, at the end of the last verse, Nephi says he will show the reader "that the tender mercies of the Lord are all over" his chosen people. This frames his intent in writing this book, and lines things up for his thesis, as stated in 1 Nephi 3:7: "I will go and do the things that the Lord hath commanded for I know that he giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."
This thesis kicks off the quest for the Brass Plates of Laban, at the end of which we have a repetition of Nephi's thesis, this time voiced by his mother Saria at the end of verse 5:8: "...the Lord hath protected my sons, and delivered them out of the hands of Laban, and given them power whereby they could accomplish the thing which the Lord hath commanded them...."
These two statements form the endpoints of a chiasmus that stretches through the quest for the brass plates. I have discovered eight pairs in this chiasmus, which can be arranged thus:
a 3:7 Thesis 1--"...the things which the Lord hath commanded..."
-b 3:9 they take their tents and go traveling
--c 3:15 Bedoin oath "...as the Lord Liveth, and as we live..."
---d 3:19 Brass plates are valuable because they hold the language
----e 3:25 Laban takes away their property
-----f 3:28 Laman and Lemuel murmur
------g 3:29 An angel appears
-------h 3:31 "Laban...can command fifty..."
-------h' 4:1 "...Laban and his fifty..."
------g' 4:3 Nephi reminds them of the angel
-----f' 4:4 Laman and Lemuel continue to murmur
----e' 4:11 Nephi recalls Laban stole their property
---d' 4:15 Brass plates are valuable because they contain the Law
--c' 4:32 Bedoin oath "...as the Lord liveth, and as I live..."
-b' 4:38 they return to the tent of their father
a' 5:8 Thesis 2--"...the thing which the Lord hath commanded..."
Now we know that a and a' are major teaching points of any mnemonic chiasmus, and so it is here, but the real test is the center of the chiasmus, which is always the most important point. Here again this chiasmus passes the test: the center of the chiasmus is Nephi testifying that the Lord is "mightier than Laban and his fifty, or even than his tens of thousands".
Nephi's thesis returns in chapter 17, as the beginning of another chiasmus. Here are all the pairs I've found; please forgive me that I don't write out all the references this time:
A 17:3
-B 17:18
--C 17:19
---D 17:24
----E 17:30
-----F 17:33
------G 17:35 (beginning)
-------H 17:35 (end)
-------H' 17:38
------G' 17:40
-----F' 17:41
----E' 17:42
---D' 17:44
--C' 17:47
-B' 17:49
A' 17:50
As you might have already guessed, these two chiasm are mirror images of each other, thereby forming part of a larger chiasmus over the entire book. The end arrangement looks something like this:
a
-b
--c A
---d B
----e C,C'
-----fB'
----A'g
-------h
--------i
---------j
----------k
-----------l-D
------------m--E
-------------n---F
--------------o----G
---------------p-----H,H'
----------------q--G'
-----------------rF'
----------------E's
--------------D'---t
--------------------u
---------------------v--H
----------------------w----I
-----------------------x------J
------------------------y--------K
-------------------------z----------L
-------------------------z'---------L'
------------------------y'-------K'
-----------------------x'-----J'
----------------------w'---I'
---------------------v'-H'
--------------------u'
--------------D*---t'
----------------E*s'
-----------------r'F*
----------------q'--G*
---------------p'-----H*,H**
--------------o'----G**
-------------n'---F**
------------m'--E**
-----------l'-D**
----------k'
---------j'
--------i'
-------h'
------g'A*
-----f'-B*
----e'---C*,C**
---d'--B**
--c'-A**
-b'
a'
Very interesting.
God did not leave anyone to be without the possibility of believing in something.
You believe in the book of Mormon, I the bible.
Some believe in numerology, some that life is to be lived here as heaven, some believe that we are reincarnated etc, etc..
The good news is that God saves us all!
Peace>>>AJ
God did not leave anyone to be without the possibility of believing in something.
You believe in the book of Mormon, I the bible.
Some believe in numerology, some that life is to be lived here as heaven, some believe that we are reincarnated etc, etc..
The good news is that God saves us all!
Peace>>>AJ
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Now you're the kind of Born Again Believer I can relate to! :yes: (By the way, Mormons believe in the Bible, too.)
DeepShadow
White Crow
I agree with you wholeheartedly...with the addition that I also believe in the Bible.
That is good news, isn't it? :yes:
Hello Madhatter,you have asked a very good question and you deserve a bible answere. If I was encouraged by the word of God (the bible) to use another book,I would do so,BUT the bible teaches us NOT to use another book as an addition to the bible (1Cor.4:6) (Rev.22:18,19) (Deut.4:2).
We are taught that the apostles received (ALL TRUTH) (John 14:26 ; 16:13). We are taught that Those people in the first century had [ALL] things pertaining to life and godliness (2Peter 1:3).We are taught that that information was [ONCE DELIVERED] (Jude 3). With all this in mind,there is no need for more information. I hope this helps some. You are free to contact me if your interested more about what I have posted.
in love Baerly
DeepShadow
White Crow
Interesting. But what's to be done about the Bible's exortation to read other books of scripture? We are told to read the book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21: 14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10: 13; 2 Sam. 1: 18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11: 41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29: 29; 2 Chr. 9: 29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9: 29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9: 29; 2 Chr. 12: 15; 2 Chr. 13: 22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12: 15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20: 34) and others. Aren't we supposed to follow these commandments and seek out these books?
I agree with you wholeheartedly...with the addition that I also believe in the Bible.
That is good news, isn't it? :yes:
Absolutely!
God wasn't born yesterday. He knows what books are out there, for many He inspires mankind to write.
The whole new testament is a workbook by which we learn to work out of.
You have salvation grant to all of you, you may not know it, but it is, and so you may be secure in your salvation.
What you are are not secure or sure of yourselves is what is truth and what is not.
So fear plays a key role in preventing us from growing in spirit.
If we love God and believe in His Son, we are secure.
So fear not to venture out of the book and learn somethings.
You've heard the words, "work out your salvation"?
Well, one can look at it two ways; we can work for it, or we have it and now we can work within it to learn what is good and Godly to live on.
Peace>>>AJ
The whole new testament is a workbook by which we learn to work out of.
You have salvation grant to all of you, you may not know it, but it is, and so you may be secure in your salvation.
What you are are not secure or sure of yourselves is what is truth and what is not.
So fear plays a key role in preventing us from growing in spirit.
If we love God and believe in His Son, we are secure.
So fear not to venture out of the book and learn somethings.
You've heard the words, "work out your salvation"?
Well, one can look at it two ways; we can work for it, or we have it and now we can work within it to learn what is good and Godly to live on.
Peace>>>AJ
DeepShadow
White Crow
Anyone want to comment on the 1st Nephi megachiasmus that I posted? Is my favorite penguicken still out there?
Free4all
It's all about the blood
Well, without reading any of the (1??) or so threads, and hoping I don't repeat someone else. Here is one quicky -------
Malachi 3 in the "book of mormon" is the King James text! Whoever wrote the "book of mormon" (far from writing it at the time of the American Indians 2000 B.C.-1000 A.D.) waited until 1611 to hack off those golden plates.......
Malachi 3 in the "book of mormon" is the King James text! Whoever wrote the "book of mormon" (far from writing it at the time of the American Indians 2000 B.C.-1000 A.D.) waited until 1611 to hack off those golden plates.......
Bishka
Veteran Member
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
No, I don't think you have to worry about repeating anyone else. You definitely get the award for creativity here.
There is no such thing as Malachi 3 in the Book of Mormon. What is it you're trying to say anyway?
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