Mahmoud (antichrist) Meets With Anti-Zionists (September 24, 2007)

UnityNow101 said:

Muslims do not deny either the Father, God/Allah, or the Son, Jesus. Remember that MANY in the Bible are referred to as the Son of God, so it is not really a unique standing, biblically speaking. Muslims do believe in the virgin birth and that Jesus was without an earthly father. If you are going to use that argument FFH, then it would undeniably be a follower of Judaism that would be the anti-christ, correct?

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Yes, according to these applicable scriptures, they also fit into this catagory. Can one read these scriptures and interprete them any other way ???

We all need to evaluate our beliefs to see if we fit into this catagory of having the "spirit of antichrist," if we, in our hearts or publicly, deny that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah who has already come into the world and died for our sins. Many are looking for a future Christ/Messiah to save them, but He (Jesus Christ) has already come into the world and saved us through his atonement for all sin and he has overcome death, as a free gift to all of us, regardless of our belief in him or not, but overcoming sin is a whole different matter and requires effort on our part, in order for that part of his sacrifice to take affect in our lives...

They completely deny Jesus altogether.

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True, so they have the same spirit of antichrist as do any others who profess not that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah..

Messianic Jews would be the only ones exempt from this status and all others in the world who profess that Jesus came into the world, suffered and died for our sins and overcame death by dying on the cross..

Scriptures state that Christ will appear unto the Jews in these last days and many will accept him as their Messiah, as I'm sure many many Muslims will do the same.

Many Muslims are being converted to Jesus Christ, as are many Jews, in preperation for Christ's very soon return....

You are very conveniently misrepresenting scripture to suit your idea on what the "spirit of the antichrist" is, FFH. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say that one must believe that he died for anyone's sins in order to be saved. Also, Muslims do believe that Jesus was the Messiah. As I have stated before, they believe in the miraculous virgin birth without human father...Are they the "spirit of the antichrist" simply because they don't believe that Jesus died for anyone's sins but that every man must carry the burden of their own wrongdoings? Clearly, the atonement theory is one that Christ never spoke of. That does not mean that it is not true, but simply that Jesus never claimed the belief as one that would save anyone.

UnityNow101 said:

You are very conveniently misrepresenting scripture to suit your idea on what the "spirit of the antichrist" is, FFH. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say that one must believe that he died for anyone's sins in order to be saved.

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John 11: 26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Also, Muslims do believe that Jesus was the Messiah. As I have stated before, they believe in the miraculous virgin birth without human father...

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But they don't believe Jesus died for our sins, which makes him our Messiah...

Are they the "spirit of the antichrist" simply because they don't believe that Jesus died for anyone's sins but that every man must carry the burden of their own wrongdoings?

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This teaching denys Jesus as our savior, redeemer, mediator, the only way to the Father.

Jesus said....

John 6: 44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Clearly, the atonement theory is one that Christ never spoke of. That does not mean that it is not true, but simply that Jesus never claimed the belief as one that would save anyone.

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Again this is completely understandable why you would believe this since (in me) is not written here in this scripture, but it is only inferred...

Mark 16: 16
He that believeth (in me) and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.

3 Nephi 11: 33 (Book of Mormon)
And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Once again, Muslims DO believe in Jesus as an honest and virtuous Messenger of God...You are implying that Jesus is saying that one must believe him to be more than that to be saved, which is certainly only your interpretation.

Does Jesus ever say that he came to wipe away the sins of the world? To me, that would imply that sin is no longer relevant, as it has been wiped away by the final sacrifice. Is this correct? If so, then continue sinning, as it is now of no relevance whether you sin or not. I much prefer the teachings of Islam, where everyone is accountable for their own sins and wrongdoings.

To sum up my entire argument, I would say that you are relying heavilly on your own understanding of Islamic theology and it's relationship to the biblical interpretation of the antichrist. Muslims do not fit the bill. Using your logic, the followers of modern-day Judaism are the epitome of the "spirit of the antichrist." They deny Jesus outright, whereas Muslims cannot call themselves Muslims without believing in every Messenger sent by God, which includes Jesus Christ.

UnityNow101 said:

Once again, Muslims DO believe in Jesus as an honest and virtuous Messenger of God...

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I know

You are implying that Jesus is saying that one must believe him to be more than that to be saved, which is certainly only your interpretation.

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Again, this belief is understandable, when one relies only on the Bible.

Helaman. 5: 9 (Book of Mormon)
O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.

Does Jesus ever say that he came to wipe away the sins of the world?

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Yes, if they turn from sin, but only then does his atonement take affect...

To me, that would imply that sin is no longer relevant, as it has been wiped away by the final sacrifice. Is this correct?

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Only when one turns from sin, then all past sins are forgiven, with regard to that particular sin. We are forgiven by God, through Christ's atoning sacrifice only of those sins we turn away from...

If so, then continue sinning, as it is now of no relevance whether you sin or not. I much prefer the teachings of Islam, where everyone is accountable for their own sins and wrongdoings.

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Which is a great teaching, but what we all sin and deserve hell, we cannot take back our past sins, but can turn from them and take advantage of Christ's punishment he took for our sins and go free and live eternally with God. There is no other way to heaven but by Christ's sacrifice he made for us in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary...

To sum up my entire argument, I would say that you are relying heavilly on your own understanding of Islamic theology and it's relationship to the biblical interpretation of the antichrist. Muslims do not fit the bill. Using your logic, the followers of modern-day Judaism are the epitome of the "spirit of the antichrist." They deny Jesus outright, whereas Muslims cannot call themselves Muslims without believing in every Messenger sent by God, which includes Jesus Christ

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Good points, but still no Christ as the savior of the world for either religion...

Christ is the only way to the Father, eternal life and exaltation, in their respective kingdom...

To not accept Christ's sacrifice for our sins is to reject heaven and our right to live there, if we are found worthy, by turning from sin and having our past sins washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ which was shed for us..

Why would anyone want to give up eternal life and exaltaion with God the Father and the Son ???

It boggles my mind continually.. I don't see any benefit to believing any other way... There is too much at risk, better to believe and life eternally with God than to live away from God and his love...

LDS theology does not place anyone in hell forever, but many will have to suffer for their own sins before they gain a reward, why not take advantage of Christ's sufferings for our sins ??

If a person sins and then becomes righteous, but does not believe in Jesus Christ as their savior and redeemer from sin, the sins still remain and that person will have to suffer for their own sins, because they simply did not look to Christ for their salvation.

I understand what you are saying...It looks like the Mormon scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ was the atonement for the sin of humanity, whereas in the KJV, among others, it is not such a clear teaching. I just have a hard time believing that an innocent man would have to die to simply wipe away the sins of the world. But that is only my belief. Jesus asked that the cup be passed from him. He didn't want to die upon the cross, although according to the Bible, it was the will of God for him to do so. And once again, I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus clearly states that one must believe him to be that sacrifice for one to be saved from their sins. To believe in it is ok, but it is not something that one must believe in to be saved, according to the Bible.

UnityNow101 said:

I understand what you are saying...It looks like the Mormon scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ was the atonement for the sin of humanity, whereas in the KJV, among others, it is not such a clear teaching. I just have a hard time believing that an innocent man would have to die to simply wipe away the sins of the world. But that is only my belief. Jesus asked that the cup be passed from him. He didn't want to die upon the cross, although according to the Bible, it was the will of God for him to do so. And once again, I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus clearly states that one must believe him to be that sacrifice for one to be saved from their sins. To believe in it is ok, but it is not something that one must believe in to be saved, according to the Bible.

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I was really not aware of how vague the Bible was about this until we had this discussion.

I did not realize how much my beliefs, concerning this, are based heavily on LDS scripture...

It's a wonder many don't believe we're Christian. LDS scripture is certainly a lot less vague than the Bible cocerning the atonement...

Will look for scriptures which point to a necessary atoning sacrifice for sin...

Again, I didn't realize how vague the Bible was concerning this, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

UnityNow101 said:

I understand what you are saying...It looks like the Mormon scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ was the atonement for the sin of humanity, whereas in the KJV, among others, it is not such a clear teaching. I just have a hard time believing that an innocent man would have to die to simply wipe away the sins of the world. But that is only my belief. Jesus asked that the cup be passed from him. He didn't want to die upon the cross, although according to the Bible, it was the will of God for him to do so. And once again, I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus clearly states that one must believe him to be that sacrifice for one to be saved from their sins. To believe in it is ok, but it is not something that one must believe in to be saved, according to the Bible.

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We are only saved by grace after we "do all we can do." In order to have the Atonement of Jesus christ apply to our lives we have to forsake our sins to be truely repentant of our mistakes.

The reason Christ was chosen to be the great atoning sacrifice is because he was the only one capable of being perfect. he had his free will during his entire life, but yet he never made a mistake, he knew his role and his purpose, he was tried and tested just as we are tried and tested, he suffered int he wilderness beyond what any mortal man can bare. He was a completely innocent man in the face of temptation. That is why his atonement could work. no other person alive could have done that, or even voulenteered to do it. In the garden when christ wanted God to take the cup from his hand, that was because of the intense pain, even then he showed no weakness, no rebellion, he said "thy will be done."

you must believe on his name to obtain salvation. even in the bible KJV:

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

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John 3
16 ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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John 20
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

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By believeing in him of course you believe in his great sacrifice merely by association. If you do not believe in the atonement, then there is no reason to believe in repentance. without repentance we are doomed because we have no way to come back to our heavenly father because of the demands of Justice. "no unclean thing can eventer into the kingdom of God"

The demands of Justice must be met because it is a divine law, No action can come without reconciliation for that action. but because of the atonement, we are able to be saved by the mercy of our heavenly father through Grace. Because, the Atonement satisfied the demands of Justice.

Justice, Grace and Mercy.

FFH said:

I was really not aware of how vague the Bible was about this until we had this discussion.

I did not realize how much my beliefs, concerning this, are based heavily on LDS scripture...

It's a wonder many don't believe we're Christian. LDS scripture is certainly a lot less vague than the Bible cocerning the atonement...

Will look for scriptures which point to a necessary atoning sacrifice for sin...

Again, I didn't realize how vague the Bible was concerning this, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

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no, you have to know where to look, most of the things ARE in the bible, you need to see them there are many many scriptures that when you place them side by side they work in unison simply and plainly, i have seen it. most LDS theology comes from the bible, the Book of mormon only clarifies some things that need to be clarified but if you knew where to look in the bible they are all there, just jumbled up.

Looks like this is the only scripture in the new testament with the term atonement in it..

Romans 5: 11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Other scriptures referring to Christ's sacrifice for sin

OLD TESTAEMENT
Lev. 17: 11 blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Isa. 53: 6 (Mosiah 14: 6) Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Zech. 9: 11 by the blood of thy covenant.

NEW TESTAMENT
Matt. 8: 17 Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Matt. 20: 28(1 Tim. 2: 6) Son of man came . . . to give his life a ransom.
Matt. 26: 28 my blood . . . shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 22: 19 my body which is given for you.
Luke 22: 44 his sweat was as it were great drops of blood.
John 6: 51 my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 10: 15 I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 11: 25 I am the resurrection, and the life.
John 12: 32 (3 Ne. 27: 15) if I be lifted up . . . will draw all men unto me.
John 14: 6 no man cometh unto the Father but by me.
John 17: 4 finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17: 19 for their sakes I sanctify myself.
Acts 13: 38 (Acts 13: 38-41) through this man is preached . . . forgiveness of sins.
Rom. 3: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation.
Rom. 5: 9 justified by his blood, we shall be saved.
Rom. 5: 11 (Rom. 5: 6-21) Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom. 8: 32 spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us.
2 Cor. 5: 18 hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus.
Eph. 2: 16 reconcile both unto God . . . by the cross.
Philip. 2: 8 obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Heb. 2: 9 that he . . . should taste death for every man.
Heb. 5: 9 author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey.
Heb. 7: 27 this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb. 9: 28 Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.
1 Pet. 2: 21 Christ also suffered for us.
1 Pet. 2: 24 his own self bare our sins.
1 Pet. 3: 18 Christ also hath once suffered for sins.
1 Jn. 1: 7 blood of Jesus . . . cleanseth us from all sin.
1 Jn. 2: 2 he is the propitiation for our sins.
1 Jn. 3: 5 he was manifested to take away our sins.
1 Jn. 4: 10 sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 Ne. 11: 33 he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins.

BOOK OF MORMON
2 Ne. 2: 7 he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin.
2 Ne. 9: 7 it must needs be an infinite atonement.
2 Ne. 10: 25 may God raise you . . . from everlasting death by the power of the atonement.
2 Ne. 11: 5 great and eternal plan of deliverance.
Jacob 4: 11reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ.
Mosiah 3: 16 blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.
Mosiah 4: 6 come to a knowledge of . . . atonement which has been prepared.
Mosiah 13: 28 were it not for the atonement . . . they must unavoidably perish.
Mosiah 14: 10 thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.
Alma 7: 11 take upon him the pains and the sicknesses.
Alma 34: 8 he shall atone for the sins of the world.
Alma 42: 23 the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection.
Hel. 5: 9 saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.
3 Ne. 11: 14 God of the whole earth . . . slain for the sins of the world.
Moro. 8: 20 setteth at naught the atonement.
Moro. 10: 33 sanctified . . . through the shedding of the blood.

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS (LDS Scripture)
D&C 18: 11 he suffered the pain of all men.
D&C 19: 16 I, God, have suffered these things for all.
D&C 29: 1 I Am, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins.
D&C 38: 4 by the virtue of the blood which I have spilt, have I pleaded.
D&C 45: 4 behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin.
D&C 74: 7 little children are holy . . . through the atonement.
D&C 76: 69 Jesus . . . wrought out this perfect atonement.
D&C 138: 2 the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son.
Moses 5: 7 a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten.
Moses 6: 54 Son of God hath atoned for original guilt.
A of F 3 through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved.

Jesus Christ, Mediator; Jesus Christ, Messiah; Jesus Christ, Redeemer; Jesus Christ, Resurrection; Jesus Christ, Savior; Jesus Christ, Lamb of God; Forgiveness Salvation

I would think that a much better candidate would be Javier Solana.

If you haven't checked him out, you should.

Eric