Does Mormonism teach Pelagianism?

I'm pretty sure they would of known that it was wrong to eat of the fruit if it was commanded by God.

In relation to Madhatter's posts regarding not knowing things unless they are experienced etc; God told Adam that he would die if he ate the fruit. I'm sure a person who was just created would of asked the question to God "what does Die mean". You in no way need to experience or see things to understand. You can be told things to learn as well.

Just to throw a spanner in the works. When Eve was confronted by the Devil she told him that she would die if she ate it and also die if she touched it. Now God told Adam simply that he would die if he ate it and never mentioned anything about touching it and dieing. Based on that one would assume that either Adam told Eve a lie or Eve told the devil a lie, either or one had already sinned before obtaining the knowledge of good and evil. Prehaps though I am misinterpreting the passage.

Scott1 said:

Since it applies to the OP (and the rejection of Mormonism), I would like you to discuss the validity of this commentary:

1. Even if Adam had not sinned, he would have died.

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Definitely wrong:

2 Ne 2:22-23
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

2. Adam's sin harmed only himself, not the human race.

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wrong again (see verses above) and:

Moses 6:47-48
47 And as Enoch spake forth the words of God, the people trembled, and could not stand in his presence.
48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.

3. Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.

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Strike 3, Adam was in a perfect body in which he was not subject to death. Obviously Children are all subject to death and born in a mortal state unlike Adam who was in an immortal state before the fall.

(see scriptures above)

4. The whole human race neither dies through Adam's sin or death, nor rises again through the resurrection of Christ.

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0-4. As has already been demonstrated above, our scriptures teach that the human race does indeed die through Adam's transgression. For the second half of the statement above see the following:

Mosiah 16:7
7 And if Christ had not risen from the dead, or have broken the bands of death that the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting, there could have been no resurrection.


of course I could give dozens of further examples, but I don't need to.

Hope that clears things up...


Scott, in my thread asking who has read the Book of Mormon, you claim to have read the whole book yet you are demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge of the book with your claims here. If you had even browsed through the book, you would know that our doctrine teaches nothing of the sort that you are claiming. What gives? Did you really read the Book of Mormon and understand nothing of it?

Personally I find if very difficult to believe that anyone could read the whole book and still have as little comprehension as you have demonstrated in your OP but I guess it is possible...

Harvster said:

I'm pretty sure they would of known that it was wrong to eat of the fruit if it was commanded by God.

In relation to Madhatter's posts regarding not knowing things unless they are experienced etc; God told Adam that he would die if he ate the fruit. I'm sure a person who was just created would of asked the question to God "what does Die mean". You in no way need to experience or see things to understand. You can be told things to learn as well.

Just to throw a spanner in the works. When Eve was confronted by the Devil she told him that she would die if she ate it and also die if she touched it. Now God told Adam simply that he would die if he ate it and never mentioned anything about touching it and dieing. Based on that one would assume that either Adam told Eve a lie or Eve told the devil a lie, either or one had already sinned before obtaining the knowledge of good and evil. Prehaps though I am misinterpreting the passage.

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I think you are misinterpeting the part where eve is talking to the serpent.

God told both Adam and Eve himself to not eat of the fruit "Lest, ye shall surely die" God did not say they would shrivel as a dried reed like some other points in the bible. God had to let them choose for themselves, and Satan tempted Eve by telling a lie (half truth to some, but half truth is still a lie). Satan lied, eve listened and ate thr fruit.

Really if you want to get into symmantics It shoudl have been the "Fall of Eve" not the Fall of Adam. Adam had a choice to not eat the fruit too, it was two choices and two sins.

madhatter85 said:

I think you are misinterpeting the part where eve is talking to the serpent.

God told both Adam and Eve himself to not eat of the fruit "Lest, ye shall surely die" God did not say they would shrivel as a dried reed like some other points in the bible. God had to let them choose for themselves, and Satan tempted Eve by telling a lie (half truth to some, but half truth is still a lie). Satan lied, eve listened and ate thr fruit.

Really if you want to get into symmantics It shoudl have been the "Fall of Eve" not the Fall of Adam. Adam had a choice to not eat the fruit too, it was two choices and two sins.

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Yeah, I was thinking about what I wrote last night. Probally going a little of topic to continue this here but... you state that God told both Adam and Eve the 'rule' but in scripture it only shows God telling Adam, as God created Eve after His command.

What I intended to point out in my previous post was that scripture tells us that Eve added "nor touch it" to God's command, which therefore could be counted as a lie to the devil as God did not say that in his command.

Victor said:

Because it's clear to me that if the fall was necessary that God indeed is a trickster and liar. And although LDS don't believe in such a God, I can't see how you guys can explain your way out it.

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Victor, it was necessary for Adam and Eve to pass through sorrow, so that they might now the good from the evil for themselves.

Adam and Eve could have chosen to be perfectly obedient, but that's apparently not what they wanted to do in the spirit world, otherwise they would not have eaten the forbidden fruit....

Many spirits/people are born to earht and neither want or need further testing, these are they who die in infancy or early childhood, at least before the age of eight, and die in their innocense, not knowing good from evil and these go straight to the highest level of heaven/Celestial kingdom. They don't need to experience the evils of this world for themselves to know that's not what they want. They are already willing to be perfectly obedient to God, without experiencing the evils/sins of this world. We on the other hand apparently were not willing to be this obedient, Christ was however and became our earthly perfect "unblemished" sacrifice for our sins. He was perfectly obedient in the spirit and in this life and experienced great temptations, but did not give into them. That alone makes me in awe of him. I was apparently not willing to make such a sacrifice and have experienced many many sins...

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Thank God for a savior or we would be sent to hell for eternity, with no hope of escaping...

Some were faithful before coming to earth and need no further testing or experience. They have chosen to obey God rather than come to earth and experience evil, by sinning.

We have all chosen to come to earth and experience evil/sins to one degree or another, to find out for ourselves whether that is what we want or not..

God has given us this grace period to decide for ourselves if this is what we want, a life of sin or a life of righteousness..

It seems to have taken me this long to figure out what it is I want...

We all struggle with the enticements of all the various sins in this life and their temprorary pleasures.

The "tree of life" was a representation of the evil things in this life that we don't need, but are drawn to for one reason or another.

All the fruits in the garden were freely given to Adam and Eve and only one fruit was forbidden, as a test to see if they would obey or not. They chose not to obey..

If you were to go through an LDS temple you would see the story of Adam and Eve portrayed in all it's important details, which would make this part of the bible much more clear to you...

Genesis has been messed with by man and many things are missing, distorted or have been changed

the Book of Moses of the Pearl of Great Price is Genesis 1-13 restored, the most messed up part of the King James translation, which better explains what happened to Adam and Eve in the Garden...

The King James is messed up and causes much confusion on many important matters..

There is one line that keeps coming to mind that Eve says to Adam, after their "eyes" were opened and they "saw" for the first time, as mortal men do, who have reached the age of accountability.

There is a point in our lives when we realize the good from the evil very clearly and eventually see all good and all evil in all of it's forms...

It takes time, but we learn "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little".

Scott1 said:

Since it applies to the OP (and the rejection of Mormonism), I would like you to discuss the validity of this commentary:

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I am really tempted to convert to Mormonism.
there is a beautiful Mormon Church in my town....

I am prideful Pelagian

My problem in understanding any of this is that I do not believe Adam and Eve were actual people, But are mythological beings used in stories to teach about the origin of man and the coming of good and evil.
However as it seems to equate knowledge with the ability to sin, I am not sure it is very useful as a modern teaching tool.

Do all Mormons take genesis literally.
Pelagianism is only a possibility if you believe in the Adam and Eve story as historical.

Terrywoodenpic said:

My problem in understanding any of this is that I do not believe Adam and Eve were actual people, But are mythological beings used in stories to teach about the origin of man and the coming of good and evil.
However as it seems to equate knowledge with the ability to sin, I am not sure it is very useful as a modern teaching tool.

Do all Mormons take genesis literally.
Pelagianism is only a possibility if you believe in the Adam and Eve story as historical.

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Some take it more literally than others. Most don't take it completely literally.