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The Truth About God.

THE DEVIL

Member
SpiritualSon said:
My name is Harry.I am a member of the New Church (Swedenborg).

The entire Holy Scripture, and all the doctrines therefrom of the churches in the Christian world, teach that there is a God and that He is one. The entire Holy Scripture teaches that there is a God, because in its inmosts it is nothing but God, that is, it is nothing but the Divine that goes forth from God; for it was dictated by God.

From God nothing can go forth except what is God and is called Divine. This the Holy Scripture is in its inmosts. But in its derivatives, which are below and from these inmosts, the Holy Scripture is adapted to the perception of angels and men.

The Divine is likewise in these derivatives, but in another form, in which it is called the celestial, spiritual, and natural Divine. These are simply the draperies of God.

For God Himself, such as He is in the inmosts of the Word, cannot be seen by any creature. For He said to Moses, when Moses prayed that he might see the glory of Jehovah, that no one can see God and live. This is equally true of the inmosts of the Word, where God is in His very Being and Essence.

Nevertheless, the Divine, which forms the inmost and is draped by things adapted to the perceptions of angels and men, beams forth like light through crystalline forms, although variously in accordance with the state of mind that man has formed for himself; either from God or from himself.

Before everyone who has formed the state of his mind from God the Holy Scripture stands like a mirror wherein he sees God.But everyone in his own way. This mirror is made up of those truths that man learns from the Word, and that he appropriates by living in accordance with them.

From all this it is evident, in the first place, that the Holy Scripture is the fullness of God.

That the Holy Scripture teaches not only that there is a God, but also that God is one,not three, can be seen from the truths which, as before stated, compose that mirror, in that they form a coherent whole and make it impossible for man to think of God except as one.

In consequence of this, every person whose reason is imbued with any sanctity from the Word knows, as if from himself, that God is one,not three, and feels it to be a sort of insanity to say that there are more god.

The angels are unable to open their lips to utter the word "gods," for the heavenly aura in which they live resists it. That God is one the Holy Scripture teaches, not only thus universally, as has been said, but also in many particular passages, as in the following:
Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah (Deut. 6:4; also Mark 12:29).
Surely God is in thee, and beside Me there is no god (Isa. 45:14).
Am not I Jehovah? and there is no god besides me? (Isa. 45:21).
I am Jehovah thy God and thou shalt acknowledge no god beside Me (Hosea 13:4).

Thus saith Jehovah, the king of Israel, I am the First and the Last, and beside Me there is no god (Isa. 44:6).

In that day Jehovah shall be king over all the earth; in that day Jehovah shall be one and His name one (Zech. 14:9).

God is one in person and in Essence.

Harry

Yes, but god only has one name. In essence.
 

MarkT

Member
A question: do you believe that Mohommad was the last and most important Prophet? If not, why? Are you saying you would have to see it to believe it?

No. He wasn't a prophet but his understanding was pretty good.

I think he had a good understanding of the Old Testament but his knowledge of Jesus probably came from the Christian religion being practiced at the time.

By the 4th century the church was practicing religion again. Common people didn't have access to the Bible.

The Koran is his argument for following Ibrahim's religion rather than the religion that was being practiced by the Jews and the Christians. To his credit he could see they were on the wrong path.

I'm agreeing with him in that respect.

The Cow

"2.135": And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.

"2.136": Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

As we can see, he didn't have any knowledge that Jesus was the Son of God, the Christ, however, he is right about there being only one God.

Actually, as far as evidence goes I think you would more likely fall into the category of the people who made up gods like Thor. No evidence required to believe in either god.

Depends on what you mean by evidence. Evidence of thunder and lightening existed. Thor was the god of thunder and lightening. It's more likely you would have been a follower of this religion because everyone else was doing it. One of the arguments for evolution, for example, is that the majority of scientists believe in it. I assume you think it's a good argument. If so, then it's likely you would have been swayed by the majority belief at the time if you'd been living then.
 
MarkT said:
No. He wasn't a prophet but his understanding was pretty good.

As we can see, he didn't have any knowledge that Jesus was the Son of God, the Christ, however, he is right about there being only one God.
You have not answered my question--why do you not believe Mohommad was the last and most important prophet? Mohommad did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. Why do you disagree with him? Will you not accept what he says until you see him perform a miracle?

These questions are meant to echo your own comment earlier that I have to 'see to believe'. I would argue that everyone has to see to believe, but some of us are willing to look around a little more than others.

It's more likely you would have been a follower of this religion because everyone else was doing it.
An interesting comment, considering less than 3% of Americans are atheists, and almost everyone I know believes in God. A real crowd-follower, aren't I?

One of the arguments for evolution, for example, is that the majority of scientists believe in it. I assume you think it's a good argument.
You know what happens when you assume...no, I think evolution is a good argument because the evidence supports it: all (complex) life comes from living parents (not from mud or supernatural fairydust), and living things back in the day were different from modern living things. Evolution, in some form, must have occurred to explain these observations.

Go science! :goodjob:
 

MarkT

Member
You're absolutely right about regeneration. The words God gave us are the seed. It grows into the spritual body which we have to put on. 1 Corinthians 15:53

James 1:21
Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

God granted his Word to have life in himself.

His Word became our Lord.

"the Lord said to my Lord" Matthew 22:44

When Jesus asked the Pharisees what they thought of the Christ; "Who's son is he?", they answered, "The son of David" but Jesus said David called the Christ his Lord so how could he be his son?

"God, thy God" Hebrews 1:9

God calls his Son "God".

If you look at yourself in the mirror, you're seeing your image in the light. God's image was in his light. God caused his light to have life in himself, to become a man, so that we could be taught by God through his Son so that by believing in His Son we could inherit eternal life.
 

MarkT

Member
You have not answered my question--why do you not believe Mohommad was the last and most important prophet? Mohommad did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. Why do you disagree with him? Will you not accept what he says until you see him perform a miracle?

These questions are meant to echo your own comment earlier that I have to 'see to believe'. I would argue that everyone has to see to believe, but some of us are willing to look around a little more than others.

Because I see things in the light of Christ. Christ is my truth. Everyone who doesn't have the light needs to see to believe.

An interesting comment, considering less than 3% of Americans are atheists, and almost everyone I know believes in God. A real crowd-follower, aren't I?

You would have been a Thor follower back then because there was no "evidence" to "prove" anything else.

I think evolution is a good argument because the evidence supports it: all (complex) life comes from living parents (not from mud or supernatural fairydust), and living things back in the day were different from modern living things. Evolution, in some form, must have occurred to explain these observations.

How do you know the "evidence" supports it given you have no a priori knowledge of it? How do you know it's necessarily true? What we can observe could have evolved from different kinds. The kinds could have been created.

Does it makes sense that a reptile remained a reptile for millions of years and then when the others of its kind disappeared, it became a bird? If that could happen then perhaps the dinosaurs didn't disappear. Maybe they became elephants and giraffes, even apes that became man.
 
MarkT said:
You have not answered my question--why do you not believe Mohommad was the last and most important prophet? Mohommad did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. Why do you disagree with him? Will you not accept what he says until you see him perform a miracle?

Because I see things in the light of Christ. Christ is my truth. Everyone who doesn't have the light needs to see to believe.
You don't need to see to believe? So, even though you do not see complete truth in what Mohommad says, you still believe he is the last and most important Prophet, right?

You would have been a Thor follower back then because there was no "evidence" to "prove" anything else.
Today, there is no "evidence" to "prove" what causes lots of natural phenomena....yet I still do not resort to explaining these things with an imaginary deity. You would have been a Thor follower because that's how you would explain thunder and lightning, just as you are a God follower because that's how you explain human emotions, morals, and the origins of life and the cosmos. I look for natural explainations, not supernatural ones (like God or Thor).

How do you know the "evidence" supports it given you have no a priori knowledge of it? How do you know it's necessarily true? What we can observe could have evolved from different kinds. The kinds could have been created.
I agree. It's a theory, and theories can be wrong (even good ones). In fact, everything we know could be wrong. But we have to try and explain things the best we can.

Does it makes sense that a reptile remained a reptile for millions of years and then when the others of its kind disappeared, it became a bird? If that could happen then perhaps the dinosaurs didn't disappear. Maybe they became elephants and giraffes, even apes that became man.
It would make more sense for a reptile to become a bird than for supernatural clay to become a bird. And it would make more sense for thunder and lightning to come from the things in the atmosphere than for Thor to create them where they appear.

Why do theists have a problem with evolution, anyway? The only thing evolution contradicts is a literal interpretation of Genesis. Couldn't God have created all life, and evolution was his method? At any rate, if you want to debate evolution, go to the evolution threads--it's too big a topic to be mixed in here as well.
 
From Mr Spinkles
Why do theists have a problem with evolution, anyway? The only thing evolution contradicts is a literal interpretation of Genesis. Couldn't God have created all life, and evolution was his method? At any rate, if you want to debate evolution, go to the evolution threads--it's too big a topic to be mixed in here as well.

From me
The writings about Adam and Eve in Genesis is a representation of the first church on earth. They were not the first people living in this world at that time. Where and how did Cain meet his wife? Where did Mrs Cain come from?
 

(Q)

Active Member
Mark T

You continually use the argument of a priori knowledge of god. In other words, gods have always been true regardless of the experience or knowledge of the individual.

A priori knowledge includes concepts like logic and mathematics - tangible consistencies that everyone can see and use on a daily basis. I can take 2 objects and place them with 2 others and see 4 objects.

And even though gods have NEVER been shown to be true, gods have no logical consistencies and cannot be seen by anyone, you lump your belief in gods together with logical consistencies.

Yu can therefore claim aliens visiting Earth is a priori knowledge - the existence of invisible pink unicorns is a priori knowledge. In fact, you can make any claim you want, no matter how ridiculous or far-fetched and simply claim it as a priori knowledge.

Of course, you can never show or argue that gods exist, aliens visiting Earth or invisible pink unicorns in the same manner that I can show you 2 plus 2 equals 4.

Therefore your claim of a priori knowledge of god lacks and credibility whatsoever and is completely bogus.
 

(Q)

Active Member
I bring excitement to this board.That's why I created this topic.

Harry, sermons are far from exciting. :roll:
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
Yes, but god only has one name. In essence.

hmm. lets see, people call him jehova, yahweh, God, the Lord, Jesus (as the incarnation), The big guy, and on the other end of the spectrum, hindus have many names for God (about 300 thou).

Because I see things in the light of Christ. Christ is my truth. Everyone who doesn't have the light needs to see to believe.

i do hope you are reffering to spiritual sight, not physical (like with the eyeballs).
not everyone needs miricles. no water turning into wine, no walking on water. i dont expect anything from God, I'm thankful for what He has given me.

perhaps those miricles are small ones. like little signs that everyone sees. fuzzy stuff...lol.


no one is born good or evil. its their actions that judge them according to human (?) morality. a person can be influenced by 'evil' surroundings and thus do evil, but no person is actually born 'evil'. its impossible. for example, a child is born in a cannible tribe. he doenst know its evil (according to our society). The kid was broughtup that way.

God created us to have *freewill*.

The bible is not to be taken literally, rather it is made up of 'stories' per say.

sadly there are many ignorant people who cannot interpret scripture by thier heart, only to read word to word of what some biased man said several hundred years ago.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
LCMS,

Well, these arent exactly difficult odds. A religious person's heart has a 50/50 chance of reaching the same conclusion, because there is only one other alternative: *not* taking the bible literally.
 

(Q)

Active Member
And what if their heart reaches the same conclusion that biased man said several hundred years ago?

That would depend on what conclusions the brain reaches as it is the one that does the thinking. The heart pumps blood.
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
scripture is there to be left for the individual to interpret himself. no priest or anyone can do that.

it is for the individual to discover the truth on his or her own. no one can help him on that.
 
On the contrary, Ceridwen, people can interpret Scripture in an infinite number of ways. There is no 50/50 chance. If there was, there would be one Christian church, not a fragmented one with dozens of denominations. How would it be explained then that great numbers of people believe in the same theology as their church teaches. The LCMS as 2.5 million members. Many of them agree on the same basic faith and interpretation of the Bible. How is this possible that many millions can come to the same faith? Don't say they have all been brainwashed, because there are many like me in the church who have experienced many different denominations before choosing one that they believe is the one true faith. How is this possible? As far as Q's comment, you know what I mean Q. Please don't insult my intelligence.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
LCMS,

Fair enough. But the point here is, just because someone believes the same thing that someone however many years ago believed, doesn't mean it's any more true. Great minds think alike, but ridiculous ones do too.

There are indeed many interpretations of the bible, and I'm glad that you recognize that, because there are many religious on these forums who do not. I guess that question would be then, which is the right one? But is that the right question? Do you believe that there is only one true interpretation, or that each is correct in its own way?
 
I do believe Ceridwen, that there is only one true interpretation of the Bible, and that it is the literal one. Why? Because, if the Bible is not literal in one place than what is to say that the entire Bible is not just some made up book of metaphors and stories. The doctrinal and theological basis of Christianity itself demands that the Bible be literal, because a single chink in the armor is enough to tear apart the rest of Christianity's beliefs and practices. At the same time, I do realize that many other denominations and religions interpret the Bible differently. However, I believe that if you are a Christian then you must accept the Bible as totally true and infallable because the very theology of Christianity rests on its infallability.
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
Yes, but there are many interpretations of the same thing. Different people interpret in different ways. There are surface level interpretations and deeper interpretations.

i.e. "Do no hide your lamp under a bushel." "Or walk while you have the light." If we took these literally we would never put our lamp under a bushel or walk at night. Many people do not interpret to the deepest inner level. Some of us want to project onto something outer.
 
Of course there are some metaphorical comments made in the Bible and such comments are extremely obvious. I am not saying every single phrase of the Bible should be taken exactly literally. Jesus uses metaphors in His parables. Metaphors are used numerous times in the book of Revelation. However, I believe the Bible should be taken literally in all other cases where metaphors are not expressly used.
 
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