Why I don't believe in God.

Ok, ok, I know I shouldn't be bashing Religion, but I need to ask the religious community a few question as to why some people believe in God so intensely.

I haven't grown up in a very religious family, but my parents and even my sibilings have attended church various times. But when it comes down too it, they don't really believe in God either. This is obviously one of the major factors contributing to my non-belief in God.

I have lead mostly a science oriented life. However, I have read many religious doctrines too. I have tried to see life through different perspectives and points of view; trying to understand why people believe in God and why some people don't.

I am a Liberal, I don't care if people smoke weed, are gay, or live their life they want to. Let the chips fall as they may, but be ready for the consequences. Truely, I don't think you have a choice in life. I don't think you can decide wheither you can believe in God or not. We are trapped in the pathway of life and can't escape it. I know this sounds like a very pesemestic point of view, but it's not. I like knowing that I am just a gear in a complex system of interactions. Only destined to furfill by purpose, and that is just to live and die.

How does the bible explain dinosaurs? Do all animals have souls? Does an ant have a soul? Does a virus have a soul? Why is the Earth older than the bible says? If God is righteous then why does he allow so many terrible things to occur? Is God righteous? Do viruses go to heaven? Does religion exploit vunerable people? What's with the ridiculous instant God healings on TV (you know the ones, where the preacher touches the persons head, then they fall)? Why is Christianitty any more right than Butism, or and other religion? ... I could go on for hours

Basically it comes down to we all don't know. All you religious people out there don't know either. We as humans will never know exactly where we came from. I have no clue, and I am certain you don't either.

One thing I like about religion, is that it brings people together. And most of the time it conveys a positive message to the world. I think if you are very religious, you should read some philosophy books. Try not to think you are right. Think you are wrong, and you have so much left to learn.

I want you to question your faith, question your whole existiance.

One last statement/question:

If God created us, then what created God, and what created that? If your answer is that God has always existed, then isn't it more simple to say that the Cosmos has always existed?

Thanks for listening to my bull****.

Brooke,

P.S. Be tolerant!

I WELCOME ALL REPLYS AND QUESTIONS

You have the same questions most of us have. I believe in living your life in a way that brings enlightment to you. My life is no drugs or alcohol, eat right, get enough sleep, exercise, be kind to everyone, help others, have fun, study, develop your talents, follow your passions, surround yourself with loving people. I have no set beliefs and am open to learning. I believe that many of our truths come from within us if we live right.

Brooke, you said this:

I have no clue, and I am certain you don't either.

as a person leading a 'mostly science oriented life' that isn't really a very scientific type statement. just because you don't know something in no way means that noone else does either. if this were true, then there would never have been any inventions or discoveries. i'm sure you understand this.

as to your questions, i could answer all of them with the same answers that i sought and found (though i've not given up the search yet, and never will). but that's not really the issue.

the issue is if that's what you even want. what will you be satisfied with? that's the question that you really have to ask yourself. if you'd be more content to live a normal everyday 'gear in the system' kind of life not taking any risks, then don't find out the answers. just go ahead and assume that there is no answer (or at least that we can never know one). that is definitely the easiest choice, not to mention the one that the large majority of people make.

but as previously mentioned, because 'they' think it's right or true doesn't mean it is.

there are many people in history who chose to be 'gears' and they got what they wished for. and then there are those few daring individuals who did what it took to go the extra step, to go after what they sought so hard the rest of the world ended up tagging along with them. you know who i'm talking about. i'm sure you can name 5 or more of them off the top of your
head.

what's the difference between them and the person who decided to become a gear? desire. and that's what it boils down to.

what do you want Brooke? do you want a life of predictability? of easy answers and safe illusions? or do you want a life of adventure and discovery. the second choice entails a lot more work than the first, but it definitely pays off a lot more at the end.

as always, the dream is what you make it.

what do you dream?

Thanks for the response completelyunbiased,

I was wondering what type of beliefs you hold. Do you believe in God? Or in a specific religion? Also, what were the answers you "sought and found"?

I wanted to clear up some points about my posting. The gear analogy refers to the fact that we all have no choice (no free will). So even those you said chose not to be gears still are. They can't escape their fate if you know what I mean.

I believe in fate in a purely scientific manner. Cause and effect if you will. If the previous state causes the next state, then how is there room for free will? We had no control before we were born, so we have no control presently, and thus afterwards. I believe their may be answers to this free will riddle with the new studies of Quantum mechanics being researched. Basically it's just when particles are very small they seem to behave in a random fashion. It seems as if the previous state has no influence on the next state. Therefore no cause and effect. This is where free will or choice would come in. However I would believe that we as humans can not understand or recognize the pattern of these interactions with quantum mechanics. This is why it seems to follow a probablistic framework. When you can't track all the variables, use probablility.

What do you think about free will? I used to think that our choice is are own, but now I don't. But I am never 100% certain.

And for the "no one really knows". I mean that all the religious that are so certain there is a God don't really know. And that's not just because I don't know. It's because there is no true proof. I wish they could consider the fact, that it is just as likely that no God exists.

what do I want? purely to be happy. I know that sounds very cliche, but it's true.

What do you mean about safe illusions? Give me an example.

Of course, even if there is no cause and effect at the quantum level, that does not indicate free will....it just means that everything at the quantum level is random. Things at the macro level are still cause and effect, and even if they were random, I doubt many would call randomness "free will".

Mr_Spinkles,

I do agree with you.

However I would believe that there is cause and effect at the quantum level. But we as humans can't detect it.

Do you believe in free will?

No, I do not believe humans have free will.

I don't bellieve in God for a multiple of reasons but I'll tell you of why in relation to origins.

One is that it has been shown by comparative mythology that many peoples share a spiritual component of life that is encapsulated into myth and legend. The themes of the stories are repeated by diverse cultures in the far reaches of the world. There is so much commonality, that it is hard to believe there is but one, true God. The mythology of the Bible portrays much the same spiritual message as so many other religious systems - the details, I believe, are differing becuase of the establishment of the various social structures and customs that developed in a particular society.

This tends to answer the questions our first thinking minds asked. Instead of science being available to answer the questions of "how", a diety was established. Why does the sun rise? - why is spring the best time to plant new crops? - why does a hunter return successful? - what is "sickness"? - a myth was created that could be told to others and bring some satifaction.

Another origin of spituality can be found in the physcology of the earliest human. The devleopment of the individual can find parallels in why religion might be systemized. There is also a theroy that religion was simultaneously developed with language.

To me, the origins of a god in the sky proclaiming his or her existence is implausible It is far more likely that man invented God in man's image and made him "supernatural".

Brooke, you said: 'I was wondering what type of beliefs you hold. Do you believe in God? Or in a specific religion?'

i don't mean to sound stuffy, but i would prefer to remain 'un-boxed' for the time being. i find that generally people take my words at face value more if they're not biased by where my thinking came from.

suffice it to say that i believe there is more out there than science can currently percieve or fundamental religions can satisfactorily explain. i believe that we are limited mostly by our perceptions and that the greatest power we have is the ability to choose.

you said this: 'The gear analogy refers to the fact that we all have no choice (no free will).'

it may just be semantics, but i don't agree. fatalism is escapism: nothing even matters, no matter what happens it's unavoidable because it was going to happen anyway. i don't buy it. i believe that our ability to choose is a 'cause' in itself and can change the effects other causes may have had.

you said this: 'What do you think about free will? I used to think that our choice is are own, but now I don't.'

would you consider yourself different from a mindless robot? if so, why? most people would agree that the level to which you can make your own decisions seperates you from a mindless robot.

i believe that we do have free will but often choose not to exercise it. because of the large volume of times we choose not, it could seem like we don't even have it, but choosing not to use it is a manifestation of free will itself.

i believe that in recognizing and harnessing the near-limitless power of free will comes the ability to do anything. please don't let such a beautiful inheritance be reduced to worthlessness by neglect.

you said this: 'I am never 100% certain.'

this is wonderful. a favorite quote of mine (i'm not sure who wrote it) is: the day you stop learning is the day that you die. i don't ever want to think that i've learned all that there is to learn and am 100% certain of it because i know that if i ever do, all it will mean is that i have finally succeeded in duping myself completely and utterly.

you said this: 'what do I want? purely to be happy.'

ah... happiness. a library of novels in itself. a topic for another day; for now, let me suggest that if this is what you want, you will get it. if you don't actually want it, or you have conflicting 'wants', you won't. (how vague is that? )

you said this: 'What do you mean about safe illusions? Give me an example.'

an example of a safe illusion is fatalism. 'nothing that we do matters because everything is pre-determined.' this is very similiar to the equally popular 'the devil made me do it.'

another example is the 'we don't know now so we never will' or 'there isn't an answer'. these are conclusions people come up with when they've given up, when their laziness beats out their curiosity. calling them inncorrect is kind.

you said this: 'Also, what were the answers you "sought and found"?'

the 'answers' i was referring to correspond to your paragraph of questions which you use to reinforce your assumption of the non-existence of God. before i answer them, i would like to better understand where you stand, so that when i do, they are answers that will be helpful to you instead of confusing or a waste of your time. most questions have many answers. some are closer to the truth than others.

much love,

c.u.

completelyunbiased--

Remember, there is a big difference between what is true, and how we behave. Fatalism is very different from not believing we have free will. The latter is a logical conclusion, the former is how one responds emotionally/behaviorally to that conclusion.

Belief that there is no free will means that one's thought processes, efforts, and abilities are all natural processes, none of which are controlled (supernaturally or otherwise) by a definite 'self'. Just because one believes this to be true, it does not necessarily follow that one must stop thinking or stop making an effort, any more than one should reject the value of a television show just because it isn't 'real'.

brookehbw--

You make many valuable points against religion. Christian religion. What, however, persuaded you away from other religions? Buddhism... paganism...taoism...? Taoism, for me at least, is basically spiritual-philosophical atheism. Paganism has no Bible and no impersonal God but rather worships nature as God. Buddhism generally does not include a concept of God but rather is a personal journey to alleviate or completely escape suffering. They are all completely different worldviews than Christianity and the logical problems you have against Christianity simply do not apply to them. I'm not encouraging you to become a theist... I was atheist for a while and I was happy, so I see no reason for you to change. However, I do have to wonder if you have actually looked into any of these religions, and if so, what logical holes you found in their philosophies...

brookehbw,

I really enjoyed what you said in your first post:

"Try not to think you are right. Think you are wrong, and you have so much left to learn. I want you to question your faith, question your whole existiance. "

If you take a look at my posts, I would say most of them say something about questioning everything around you. I'm glad I'm on the same page with at least a few. It's quite normal to ask your questions. If you want some interesting information, look up theodicy on the internet. Theodicy is a defence of God against all the evil that takes place in the world. Like why God lets children die of horrible diseases every day. Even though theodicy was created and maintained by theists, it is still interesting.

Did you know that there is actually a prominant religious group, who's name I can't remember, that actually believes that the dinosaurs never existed. I guess all those bones we dug up were just planted by scientists. I guess we can also just thank God for the oil.

*whispers to brookehbw* Actually, Runt is just an atheist in denial.....but don't tell her that!

Mr_Spinkles said:

*whispers to brookehbw* Actually, Runt is just an atheist in denial.....but don't tell her that!

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Not necessarily. I think it quite possible to construct a cogent definition of religion that presupposes neither God(s) nor the Supernatural.

Deut. 32.8 said:

Mr_Spinkles said:

*whispers to brookehbw* Actually, Runt is just an atheist in denial.....but don't tell her that!

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Not necessarily. I think it quite possible to construct a cogent definition of religion that presupposes neither God(s) nor the Supernatural.

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You might ask for Ron Hubbard's help

Runt said:

Taoism, for me at least, is basically spiritual-philosophical atheism. Paganism has no Bible and no impersonal God but rather worships nature as God. Buddhism generally does not include a concept of God but rather is a personal journey to alleviate or completely escape suffering.

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Good morning, Runt.

"Paganism" is not a particularly useful term. I also suspect that you meant 'personal' rather than 'impersonal God', i.e., the God of the Deist. Finally, I assume that you meant Pantheism rather than Paganism.

Buddhism, of course, is highly teleological and supernatural.

pah said:

Deut. 32.8 said:

Mr_Spinkles said:

*whispers to brookehbw* Actually, Runt is just an atheist in denial.....but don't tell her that!

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. I think it quite possible to construct a cogent definition of religion that presupposes neither God(s) nor the Supernatural.

Click to expand...

You might ask for Ron Hubbard's help

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I am perfectly happy to point to the traditions of Daoism and the Pantheism of Spinoza. But, all that aside, I'd like to ask you a question: was your intent to ridicule or was there truly some point to your comment?

Deut. 32.8 said:

pah said:

You might ask for Ron Hubbard's help

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I am perfectly happy to point to the traditions of Daoism and the Pantheism of Spinoza. But, all that aside, I'd like to ask you a question: was your intent to ridicule or was there truly some point to your comment?

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I was thinking of Scientology but perhaps the details are "off" and it mislead you.

I believe it was Ron Hubbard and that Scientology met your criteria.

pah said:

Deut. 32.8 said:

pah said:

You might ask for Ron Hubbard's help

Click to expand...

I am perfectly happy to point to the traditions of Daoism and the Pantheism of Spinoza. But, all that aside, I'd like to ask you a question: was your intent to ridicule or was there truly some point to your comment?

Click to expand...

I was thinking of Scientology but perhaps the details are "off" and it mislead you.

I believe it was Ron Hubbard and that Scientology met your criteria.

Click to expand...

Scientology is theistic bunk.

Scientology is thus a religion in the most traditional sense of the term. Scientology helps man become more aware of God, more aware of his own spiritual nature and that of those around him. Scientology scripture recognizes that there is an entire dynamic (urge or motivation in life) devoted to the Supreme Being (the eighth dynamic), and another dynamic that deals solely with one’s urge toward existence as a spirit (the seventh dynamic). Acknowledgment of these aspects of life is a traditional characteristic of religions.

- see Cult-R-Us

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