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Archeaological evidence for the Bible

Hope

Princesinha
But Israel wasn't expelled. Israel escaped, against the wishes of Pharaoh, who pursued them and died in the Red Sea. Ahmose I, on the other hand, lived another decade after the expulsion of the Hyksos. If we could prove that the Hyksos and the Hebrews were the same, that would disprove the Bible, not confirm it.

No, Israel did not "escape." Pharoah told them to go. I call that being "expelled." It was only later that the Pharoah changed his mind. And nowhere in the Bible that I know of does it say that Pharoah himself drowned in the incident. Only his army. So I don't see how equating the Hyksos expulsion with the Exodus disproves the Bible.

Did you read the article? It explains how the two events (Hyksos expulsion and Exodus) can be reconciled as the same event.
 

Atechi

Member
It didn't hold all the animals that are alive today.:p

Most of the flood stories do mention a boat or some type of vessel that saved a few people. Maybe you could read the actual stories and see for yourself. ;)
Edit> Every animal alive today with a few exception among insect kind would have been alive in the time of Noah, unless you want to disregard all evidance and hold that Noah didn't exsist in known history. Or somehow weren't saved, but still lived.

The problem is, Babolyian myth had gilgamesh survive by holding onto the grass, scandivan myth had no boat. the amerind tales I know have no boats either. Thats three rather important cultures none of whom survived based on boats. If we all came from people saved on a boat, what happened to the boats?
 

Smoke

Done here.
And nowhere in the Bible that I know of does it say that Pharoah himself drowned in the incident. Only his army.
You're right. However, only the most tortured reading of scripture can turn the Exodus into an expulsion.
 

Seneca

Atheist Scum
Non-believers are always claiming that the Bible is full of myths, and there isn't enough historical/archeaological evidence to back it up, so I always enjoy reading about new discoveries that totally contradict such claims.

Here is one I found:


Does anyone know of any specific archeaological discoveries that definitively contradict the Bible?

Hi. I am a non-believer myself. I think of myself as typical of most non-believers/atheists, call it what you will, and think I am accurate in saying that most of us consider that the Bible was written by human beings and indeed, in historical context, may therefore naturally include references to real people or events and places. Nebuchadnezzar himself is accepted as a historical figure, so why not his eunuch.

I personally would not have any issue with any irrefutable evidence that Jesus, as a historical person existed, if a grave should be found or a tablet uncovered, but would find it very difficult to 'naturally infer' from that discovery that this real person was the son of God and performed miracles, rose from the dead etc.

Whereas we concede that many locations, people and events in the Bible may have some grounding in truth, or can be proven to have some grounding in truth, what we cannot concede to is that the fact that some of these people existed should be taken out of context and that it naturally follows that the Bible is true in everything written in it. It would be silly to think such a thing.

This does not help to strengthen the Christian theology in any way, it merely demonstrates that one of the people mentioned in it was a historical figure - nothing more, nothing less. It does not mean that we are all sitting here gasping with our mouths open thinking that we need to rethink whether the Garden of Eden or the Flood are true stories or not or that actually we were wrong to not believe in God. That is a big leap.

Atheists contend that the Bible is full of many myths. The existence of historical figures contemporary to when the Bible was written that are mentioned in the Bible is not one of them.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
So it's highly probable that the expulsion of the Hyksos coincided, or was one and the same, as the expulsion of Israel. ...

God displayed His power through this underdog group of people.
Not to mention his sensitivity, carefully protecting the sensibility of the Israelites by avoiding the Philistines (Exodus 13:17) even though the Hyksos expulsion antedates the advent of the Philistines by roughly four centuries. That's a bit like the Pilgrims choosing Plymouth, Massachusetts over Annapolis because they wanted to avoid the Bush clan.
 

anders

Well-Known Member
So, for starters, how about these problems, mention in a review of Finkelstein's The Bible Unearthed?

  • According to the Biblical chronology, Abraham and the patriarchs of Genesis were active roughly 2000 BCE. The stories make repeated mention of camel caravans. However, archaeology has shown that camels were not domesticated until much later; camel caravans were no earlier than 1000 BCE.
  • There is no evidence for the Exodus as the Bible describes it. The Bible does not give an exact date for the Exodus, nor refer to the pharaoh of the time by name. There is a stele of Pharaoh Merneptah mentions a people named Israel living in Canaan by 1200 BCE, so the Exodus should have occurred some time before that. However, there is no Egyptian documentation of any large group of slaves of any ethnicity leaving Egypt during a likely time frame. The population of Egypt was not over 5 million at the time, and it is out of the question that nearly 1 million people could leave without some kind of record or evidence.
  • There is no evidence for a swift, decisive military conquest of Canaan by Israelites by 1200 BC. And it does seem implausible that a ragtag group of slaves, however numerous, could have managed a well coordinated attack on an entire region after 40 years of wandering in the desert.
  • According to the bible, King David and his son Solomon reigned over a large territory, from Mesopotamia to Egypt, and had the wealth to build impressive temples and palaces. This monarchy would have had to have ruled in the range of 1000 to 900 BCE or so. Yet archaeologists have not found any monumental architecture at all dating to this time in Judah. Apparently Jerusalem was a rather small village at the time.
Excellent book. Do get it. Finkelstein, Silberman: The Bible Unearthed, ISBN 0-684-86913-6.

Regarding #2, it should even be more like 2 million, if you (which you should) count women and minors.

And why don't archaeologists, working for many years, guided by the words of the Bible, find even the minutest trace of 2 Mpeople and their huge amounts of livestock living for 40 years in an environment ideally suitable for conservation of animal remains and artifacts, find even one discarded sandal, or a burial, or animal bone, or a single pound of the gazillions of tons of manure that must have been left?

Myth. The lot. If you don't prefer "fairy tales".
 

Hope

Princesinha
Regarding #2, it should even be more like 2 million, if you (which you should) count women and minors.

And why don't archaeologists, working for many years, guided by the words of the Bible, find even the minutest trace of 2 Mpeople and their huge amounts of livestock living for 40 years in an environment ideally suitable for conservation of animal remains and artifacts, find even one discarded sandal, or a burial, or animal bone, or a single pound of the gazillions of tons of manure that must have been left?

I don't know. It's certainly a valid question. But does every other ancient civilization leave behind such traces? Is this a consistent thing with every other ancient group of people?
 

yossarian22

Resident Schizophrenic
I don't know. It's certainly a valid question. But does every other ancient civilization leave behind such traces? Is this a consistent thing with every other ancient group of people?
:rolleyes:
I will leave you to find the logical flaws in your statement.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I do agree that the Holy Spirit definitely supplies the best proof. Amen.:)

However, I still think that Christianity (and Judaism) are unique in that they are very much historical religions. Especially Christianity. Christianity stands or falls on the existence of, and resurrection of, Jesus Christ. If Jesus' bones are discovered, and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be His, then my faith has no reason for existing anymore.
I'm wondering if you've really thought this through carefully. if Jesus' bones were to be discovered, that would mean He was not resurrected after all, thus disproving the basic tenet of Christianity. When He appeared to Mary and His Apostles on Easter morning, He made a point of telling them that He was not merely an unembodied spirit. He had a body of flesh and bones, and He ascended into Heaven with this body.

I don't know how any bones could ever be proven to be Jesus' anyway, but as a Christian, I'd have to say that physical evidence of His existence would, in fact, be evidence that He was just a man and not the Son of God.
 

anders

Well-Known Member
But does every other ancient civilization leave behind such traces? Is this a consistent thing with every other ancient group of people?
Archaeologists every now and then find traces of settlements of just handfuls of people, in settings and climates much less conservation friendly. So I'd say it's consistent.
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
The Exodus-Conquest didn't happen.

Pharoah's Sons - There is a lot of debate over which of the Pharaoh's ruled during Moses time, either Amenhotep II or Merneptah. It just so happens that neither of them were succeeded by their first born son according to archeological evidence. Could be coincidence.

Joshua's Name - It occurs in an Amrna tablet written from PAlestine to Pharaoh. It refers to the rout of the king of Pella, and it says, "Ask Benjamin. Ask Tadua. Ask Joshua."

Jericho's Wall fell flat - Garstang found evidence that Jericho was destroyed about 1400 BC, Joshua's date; and that the walls had fallen flat, outward, down the hillsode. Joshua "burnt the city with fire" (Joshua 6:24). Garstang foudn a layer of ashes left by Joshua's fire. Israel was commanded to "keep themselves from the devoted things" (Joshua 6:18). Garstang found below the layer of ashes foodstuffs, wheat, barley, dates and such, turned to charcoal.

Ai and Bethel - Albright found in the Bethel mound, and Garstang found in the Ai mound, evidences that they had been destroyed by fire during the time of Joshua (around 1400 BC)

Lachish - Is named as among the cities that Joshua destroyed. The Wellcome Archaeological Expedition (1934) found a large layer of ashes left by a fire around Joshua's time.

Debir - Also named among the cities that Joshua destroyed. The Xenia Semianry and the American School at Jerusalem found a deep layer of ashes and charcoal with evidences that it was from Joshua's time.

Hazor - Another cities that was burned by Joshua in the Bible. Garstang found the ashes of the fire, with pottery that it had occured in Joshua's time. Also: An Amarna Tablet, writtne to Pharoah (1380 BC), from north of Palestine, says, "Let my lord recall what HAzor and its king have already had to endure."

Now, it very well could be that all of these cities being burned by fire were a coincidence, or were done my another group of people. To me, it seems plausible that one by one these cities were taken by the Israelites as is stated in the Bible. MAybe some of the details are not totally accurate, but I believe the overalls tory to be true.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Pharoah's Sons - There is a lot of debate over which of the Pharaoh's ruled during Moses time, either Amenhotep II or Merneptah. It just so happens that neither of them were succeeded by their first born son according to archeological evidence. Could be coincidence.
Could be ... and an irrelevant one at that. By the way, what is your date of the Exodus?

Joshua's Name - It occurs in an Amrna tablet written from PAlestine to Pharaoh. It refers to the rout of the king of Pella, and it says, "Ask Benjamin. Ask Tadua. Ask Joshua."
My son-in-law has a dog named Buddy.


Jericho's Wall fell flat - Garstang found evidence that Jericho was destroyed about 1400 BC, Joshua's date; and that the walls had fallen flat, outward, down the hillsode. Joshua "burnt the city with fire" (Joshua 6:24). Garstang foudn a layer of ashes left by Joshua's fire. Israel was commanded to "keep themselves from the devoted things" (Joshua 6:18). Garstang found below the layer of ashes foodstuffs, wheat, barley, dates and such, turned to charcoal.
Garstang? I'm actually a bit surprised that you didn't drag Bryant Wood into the discussion as well. Nevertheless ...
ABSTRACT. Our stratified radiocarbon dates from EB Jericho (Trench III) on short-lived material are significantly older than conventional archaeo-historical time frameworks. The calibrated 14C date of Stage XV Phase li-lii (Early to Middle EB-I Kenyon) is 100–450 years older. Stage XVI Phase lxi-lxii (Early EB-II Kenyon) is 200–500 years older. Stage XVI Phase lxii-lxiii (destructive end EB-II) is 200–300 years older. Stage XVII Phase lxviii a – lxix a (Early EB-III) is 100–300 years older than conventional archaeo-historical time estimates. As the beginning of the Chalcolithic in the Near East has “become” a 1000 years older, from about 4000 in the 1960s to about 5000 BC in current perception based on 14C dating, it should not be surprising that the Early Bronze Age and related Egyptian Dynasties also yield 14C dates that are older by a few hundred years than current archaeo-historical time frameworks. Egyptian chronology should not be regarded as ultimately fixed. Egyptologists in the first half of the 20th century gave much older dates for the earlier Dynasties. The new 14C evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of an older Early Bronze Age and older dates for Dynasties 1–6.

RADIOCARBON CHALLENGES ARCHAEO-HISTORICAL TIME FRAMEWORKS IN THE NEAR EAST: THE EARLY BRONZE AGE OF JERICHO IN RELATION TO EGYPT


A destruction of Jericho's walls dates archaeologically to around 1550 BC in the 16th century BC at the end of the Middle Bronze Age, by a siege or an earthquake in the context of a burn layer, called City IV destruction. Opinions differ as to whether they are the walls referred to in the Bible. According to one biblical chronology, the Israelites destroyed Jericho after its walls fell out around 1407 BC: the end of the 15th century. Originally, John Garstang's excavation in the 1930s dated Jericho's destruction to around 1400 BC, in confirmation, but like much early biblical archaeology, his work became criticised for using the Bible to interpret the evidence rather than letting the facts on the ground draw their own conclusions. Kathleen Kenyon's excavation in the 1950s redated it to around 1550 BC, a date that most archaeologists support.[8][9] In 1990, Bryant Wood critiqued Kenyon's work after her field notes became fully available. Observing ambiguities and relying on the only available carbon dating of the burn layer, which yielded a date of 1410 BC plus or minus 40 years, Wood dated the destruction to this carbon dating, confirming Garstang and the biblical chronology. Unfortunately, this carbon date was itself the result of faulty calibration. In 1995, Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht used high-precision radiocarbon dating for eighteen samples from Jericho, including six samples of charred cereal grains from the burn layer, and overall dated the destruction to an average 1562 BC plus or minus 38 years.(Radiocarbon Vol. 37, Number 2, 1995.) Kenyon's date of around 1550 BC is widely accepted based on this methodology of dating. Notably, many other Canaanite cities were destroyed around this time.

If the dates of certain schools of archaeology are to be accepted, then scholars who link these walls to the biblical account must explain how the Israelites arrived around 1550 BC but settled four centuries later and devise a new biblical chronology that corresponds. The current opinion of many archaeologists is in stark contradiction to the biblical account.

- Wikipedia

Sorry, Buddy, but the archaeology of Jericho is not Bible friendly.

Ai and Bethel - Albright found in the Bethel mound, and Garstang found in the Ai mound, evidences that they had been destroyed by fire during the time of Joshua (around 1400 BC).
On the other hand ...
One of the most influential theories put forward to explain the "conquest" is that of the late W. F. Albright. A professor for many years at Johns Hopkins University, Albright knew there were inconsistencies and other problems in the biblical stories. Nevertheless, he believed that these stories were essentially historical in character, and he used what was beginning to be known from archaeological excavations to support his interpretation. In particular, he cited such evidence as was known from Lachish (Josh. 10:31-31), Bethel (Judg. 1:22f), and Tell Beit Mirsim, which he identified with ancient Debir (Josh. 10:38-39 - an identification which is disputed today), to support his interpretation. All of these sites were destroyed at the end of the Late Bronze Age, or in the case of Lachish, in the middle of the twelfth century BC. If Tell Beit Mirsim is not ancient Debir, then it is an unidentified site that also suffered destruction at this time.

Albright's reconstruction has had wide-ranging influence, especially in America, because it seemed as if he had demonstrated that archaeology could be used to support the biblical stories. For reasons to be discussed below, there is virtually no part of his reconstruction that is still taken seriously by archaeologists and historians today. To quote one well-known American archaeologist: "a decade of intensive, multi-disciplinary field excavation and survey, mostly carried out by Israeli archaeologists, has swept away 'conquest models' completely ... Today no reputable Biblical scholar or archaeologist anywhere would espouse Albright's views" (Dever).

- Archaeology and the Bible

Initially, both Garstang and Albright held to the earlier date of the conquest (1400 B.C.). However, during excavations at Beitin, which he assumed was biblical Bethel, Albright faltered and finally moved to a later date for the conquest (c. 1250 B.C.; Albright, 1957, p. 13). He made this reversal because he attributed a thick destruction level at Beitin, which he dated at about 1250 B.C., to the invading Israelites (though the Bible does not mention Bethel among the cities Israel destroyed; see Livingston, 1988, 1[3]:14). Due to this evidence and similar finds at other sites, coupled with Albright’s pervasive influence, the date of 1220-1230 B.C. for the conquest has prevailed since the 1950s (cf. Hester, 1962, p. 139; Stiebing, 1985, 11[4]:58-69).

- ApologeticPress.org
Sorry, Buddy ... (to be continued)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Now, where were we? Oh, yes ...


Lachish - Is named as among the cities that Joshua destroyed. The Wellcome Archaeological Expedition (1934) found a large layer of ashes left by a fire around Joshua's time.
As quoted above ...
All of these sites were destroyed at the end of the Late Bronze Age, or in the case of Lachish, in the middle of the twelfth century BC.
Would you mind sharing with us any relatively current, peer-reviewed archaeology that speaks of a circa 1400 BCE destruction layer at Lachish? Or, perhaps, you were simply being dishonest or confused when you offered the ashes as evidence, since ...
During the 19th and early 20th centuries, Lachish was identified with Tell el-Hesi from a cuneiform tablet found there (EA 333). The tablet is a letter from an Egyptian official named Paapu, reporting cases of treachery involving a local kinglet, Zimredda. Excavations at Tell el-Hesy were conducted by Petrie and Bliss for the Palestine Exploration Fund during the years 1890 - 1892, and among other discoveries was the remains of what was identified as an iron blast furnace, with slag and ashes, which was dated to 1500 BC. If the theories of experts are correct, the use of the hot-air blast instead of cold air was known at an extremely early age.

More recent excavations have identified Tell ed-Duweir as Lachish beyond reasonable doubt. Excavation campaigns by James Leslie Starkey recovered a number of ostraca (18 in 1935, three more in 1938) from the latest occupational level immediately before the Chaldean siege. They form the only known corpus of documents in classical Hebrew.

-Wikipedia
Ashes, yes; Joshua, no. And, again, to when do you date the Exodus?

Debir - Also named among the cities that Joshua destroyed. The Xenia Semianry and the American School at Jerusalem found a deep layer of ashes and charcoal with evidences that it was from Joshua's time.
See above. Also ...
Tell Beit Mirsim was continuously, albeit sparsely, settled during the 13th-11th centuries B. C., and may provide a key to the understanding of this period in the southern Shephelah. Albright, identifying the site with Debir, suggested a Canaanite-Israelite-Philistine sequence for Strata C2-B1-B2. The stratigraphic and ceramic evidence, some of it previously unpublished, is here reexamined. We show that the spatial organization and architecture of the Iron I strata do not resemble those of sites identified as Israelite or Philistine, and that the pottery of these strata is fundamentally in the Canaanite tradition. Within this tradition, an influx of new forms and techniques is observed in Stratum B2. These are closely associated with Lachish Stratum VI, and it is suggested that Tell Beit Mirsim may have served as a haven for bearers of the Lachish pottery-making tradition, after that site was destroyed around 1150 B. C.

- New Light on the Early Iron Age at Tell Beit Mirsim
So, (a) the identification of Tell Beit Mirsim with Debir is questionable, and (b) the destruction layer is dated to 1150 BCE. I guess for the literalist any destruction layer will do but, for the record, will you tell us again your date for the Exodus?

Now, it very well could be that all of these cities being burned by fire were a coincidence, or were done my another group of people. To me, it seems plausible that one by one these cities were taken by the Israelites as is stated in the Bible. MAybe some of the details are not totally accurate, but I believe the overalls tory to be true.
Yes, Hazor ...
An increasing majority of archaeologists believe that the Israelites emerged simply as a subculture within Canaanite society, and thus that the Israelite conquest of Canaan didn't actually happen; most biblical scholars believe that the Book of Joshua conflates several independent battles between disparate groups, over multiple centuries, and artificially attributes them to a single leader - Joshua. Nevertheless, one archaeological stratum, dating from around 1200BC, shows signs of catastrophic fire, and cuneiform tablets found at the site refer to monarchs named Ibni, which may be the etymological origin of Jabin. The city also show signs of having been a magnificent Canaanite city prior to its destruction, with great temples and opulent palaces, split into an upper acropolis, and lower city; the town evidently had been a major Canaanite city.

However, the cuneiform tablets mentioning Ibni date from the Middle Bronze (2000-1550BC) age, much earlier than the destruction layer, which itself differs substantially in date from the Late Bronze Age destructions of Aphek, Lachish, and Megiddo; thus these cities cannot have been destroyed by a single army lead by a single individual in a single campaign (as the Book of Joshua would have it), due to the time period involved. Archaeologists suspect that the real reason for the destruction of Hazor could simply be civil strife, attacks by the Sea Peoples, and/or a result of the general collapse of civilisation across the whole eastern Mediterranean in the Late Bronze Age.

- Wikipedia
Sadly, Hazor is of no more help than is the rest of your laundry list.

Now, it very well could be that all of these cities being burned by fire were a coincidence, or ...
It could very well be that you haven't a clue what your talking about. That you start with 'suggestive' references to "Amenhotep II [circa 1400 BCE] or Merneptah [circa 1200 BCE]" demonstrates gross intellectual opportunism: apparently any date will do as you romp through the fields of antiquated archaeology hand picking anything and everything than may help your cause.
You offer up Jericho, suggesting (incorrectly) that it sports a 1400 BCE destruction layer and therefore serves as evidence for the Exodus.
You then offer up Hazor, suggesting that it sports a 1200 BCE destruction layer and therefore serves as evidence for the Exodus.
The opportunism here is laughingly obvious and sadly thoughtless (or, disingenuous).

Sherlock Holmes writes in A Scandal in Bohemia:
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist the facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.
Laughlin, quoted above, notes:
During the first half of this century and even up through the 1960s, many archaeologists were optimistic that archaeological discoveries had validated many of the historical claims of the Bible, if not the theological interpretations given to that history by the Biblical authors. For example, Albright triumphantly declared in the mid 1930s: "Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition of the Bible as a source of history". Albright's most famous student, G. E. Wright, also believed that archaeology and the Bible were very closely aligned when he concluded that biblical archaeology's "chief concern is not with strata or pots or methodology. Its central and absorbing interest is the understanding and exposition of the scriptures".

Such sentiments as the above are examples of what Lemche has recently referred to as:
"the pervasive mania within certain archaeological circles for correlating text with excavation before either the text or the excavation has had an opportunity to speak for itself".
This highly optimistic view of what archaeology can do for biblical studies - historically speaking, at least - is now all but absent except among the most conservative of archaeologists and biblical historians. The contemporary view of most archaeologists is that the purpose of archaeology, however defined, is not to prove the Bible true in any sense, historically or otherwise.
Now go and sin no more ... :slap:
 

Hope

Princesinha
Right ho
If they did not leave behind traces, we wouldn't know if they existed or not.

Well, duh. :p

What I meant was specific traces, as mentioned:

animal remains and artifacts, find even one discarded sandal, or a burial, or animal bone, or a single pound of the gazillions of tons of manure that must have been left

In other words, is the lack of traces of things like this really enough proof that the Israelites were never there? I'll readily admit I don't know too much about archeaology, so I'm genuinely curious here. Could there possibly be any other kinds of traces that have not been considered, or alternative theories that would explain an absence of the aforementioned traces?
 

Hope

Princesinha
I'm wondering if you've really thought this through carefully. if Jesus' bones were to be discovered, that would mean He was not resurrected after all, thus disproving the basic tenet of Christianity. When He appeared to Mary and His Apostles on Easter morning, He made a point of telling them that He was not merely an unembodied spirit. He had a body of flesh and bones, and He ascended into Heaven with this body.

I don't know how any bones could ever be proven to be Jesus' anyway, but as a Christian, I'd have to say that physical evidence of His existence would, in fact, be evidence that He was just a man and not the Son of God.

I'm not understanding how what I wrote disagrees with your point.:confused: Seems we agree.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Could there possibly be any other kinds of traces that have not been considered, ...
As they say: hope springs eternal ...

..., or alternative theories that would explain an absence of the aforementioned traces?
Of course - there can be an almost endless succession of 'theories', each more tenuous or more tortuous than the last, but the 'theory' that best explains all the available evidence, and the one consistent with he informed consensus of the scientific community, it that the Exodus-Conquest is lore.
 
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