Job

Lightkeeper · Jan 30, 2005

What do you think the significance if the story of Job is? Does it portray a loving God? Have you ever felt like Job?

No*s · Jan 30, 2005

Job brings it up for debate, but in the end, it doesn't give an answer, and God is shown not to be subject to the standards Job was using. Neither, though, was Job condemned for his question (though he was chastised for arrogance). He walked away, after all

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Ceridwen018 · Jan 30, 2005

God makes a bet with Satan at the expense of his most trusted servant's life. Doesn't sound very loving to me.

fromthe heart · Jan 30, 2005

Lightkeeper said:
What do you think the significance if the story of Job is? Does it portray a loving God? Have you ever felt like Job?

God knows His own so well he made that bet with satin knowing Job's true faithfulness. Because of being so faithful God gave him the endurance to withstand satins attacks. It shows that being true in your love and respect for God that you can overcome just about anything. It doesn't really portray a loving God as much as it does His all knowing about each and every one of His chosen. As far as being tested by times I have felt like Job...but I'm ashamed to say that by times I've not been as faithful as Job.

Ceridwen018 · Jan 30, 2005

fromthe heart, if god knew that Job was faithful enough to withstand the attacks, what was the purpose in ruining his life?

Even if god didn't know he would be faithful, does that justify him testing Job so?

fromthe heart · Jan 30, 2005

Ceridwen018 said:
fromthe heart, if god knew that Job was faithful enough to withstand the attacks, what was the purpose in ruining his life?

Even if god didn't know he would be faithful, does that justify him testing Job so?

He knew Job could handle it but satin couldn't ...satin was sure no one would be that faithful to God. So it wasn't so much a lesson on Job but more of a lesson to satin.

Ceridwen018 · Jan 30, 2005

Why does God have to prove things to Satan? Why does God care what Satan thinks?

fromthe heart · Jan 30, 2005

Ceridwen018 said:
Why does God have to prove things to Satan? Why does God care what Satan thinks?

Satin tries to tempt all those who strive to be rightous for God and he tried tempting Jesus in the wilderness...satin keeps trying so from time to time God has to put him in his place.

Feathers in Hair · Jan 30, 2005

I've always been curious, Fromtheheart: do you refer to him as "Satin" due to not wanting to give him true acknowledgement, or is it some other reason? It's something that has piqued my interest.

Unfortunately, I really struggled with the story of Job, to the point where that was one of the things that turned me to another religion. If it's percieved as a true story, I don't understand the pettyness of allowing someone who loves you to suffer because of a bet. If it's percieved as an allegory, I guess I still don't understand it.

Ceridwen018 · Jan 30, 2005

Satin tries to tempt all those who strive to be rightous for God and he tried tempting Jesus in the wilderness...satin keeps trying so from time to time God has to put him in his place.

Obviously it's not working if Satan keeps picking up his bad habits over again.

Why doesn't God ultimately put him in his place by, you know, eradicating evil or something? It seems that that would be a preferred alternative to messing up the lives of your closest friends, and then while they're on their knees begging for forgiveness for some wrong they surely must have committed, chuckle to yourself as you exclaim, "You see, Satan? I win every time. Ahh, this game never gets old, eh?"

cardero · Jan 30, 2005

Lightkeeper writes: What do you think the significance if the story of Job is?

To instill unnecessary fear in both God and Satan and promote the theory that we are only pawns who are unimportant in the dealings of two immature spiritual deities.

Lightkeeper writes: Does it portray a loving God?

These are the things that I have learned from GOD about LOVE:

You cannot judge LOVE.

You cannot offer LOVE like wages.

You cannot take LOVE away.

You cannot hold, compromise, jeopardize, pretend, manipulate, warp, or sell LOVE.

LOVE is not a contest and should never BE tested.

The opposite of LOVE is fear.

I do not know who the god is that is portrayed in the instance of JOB but it does not describe the GOD that I know today.

Lightkeper writes: Have you ever felt like Job?

No, I have never agreed to enter or encourage a REALationship with an entity who would do that to me.

jewscout · Jan 30, 2005

The book of Job is there to explain why bad things happen to good people. It shows that even the best amongst us can be subject to divine tests.

t3gah · Jan 30, 2005

The bilble also shows that God allowed Satan to knock down Job's kids house using the wind.

Marauders came and got everything else which means they were possessed.

And then to cap it off Job gets ill by Satan's hand, which a great many on earth still ignore and believe Satan doesn't have any power whatsoever.

Control over Natural Forces
Control over Man Power
Control over Medical Know How

Majikthise · Jan 30, 2005

I'm not saying that my situation was as severe as Job's, but it was that type of situation that nudged me into my atheism. And I'm overjoyed that it did!The suffering that I went through broke me but it worked out for the best. I'm still an optimist and no lightning bolts have fried me yet.

mahayana · Jan 30, 2005

I think it's important for everyone to read this chapter. You will be tested later, hah!

Existentialists like Job and the Myth of Sisyphus. Both are great allegories for the ambiguous results of striving and persistence.

Have you considered the etymology of the word "job?" We commit ourselves to duties, responsibilities, loyalties...with the expectation of reward.

Then there's the Beatles song "I am the Walrus" with its mysterious reference-

"I am the Eggman, they are the Eggmen...Goo, goo, goo, joob..."

Go! Go! Go, Job!

Ceridwen018 · Jan 30, 2005

The book of Job is there to explain why bad things happen to good people. It shows that even the best amongst us can be subject to divine tests.

So, bad things happen to good people because god has a gambling problem? Is the earth just a divine board for a lively game of marbles?

mahayana · Jan 30, 2005

More like a morality play, arranged for God's amusement. Bad reviews can be hell!

And that's why you say grace three times a day, to be reminded of what separates you from the fiery lake.

lilithu · Jan 31, 2005

Lightkeeper said:
What do you think the significance if the story of Job is? Does it portray a loving God? Have you ever felt like Job?

Hi Lightkeeper, namaste.

May I ask why you ask about Job? It seems to me that the essence of the story of Job has been discussed repeatedly, in form or another, in the last month.

The significance of the story of Job is the theodicy problem, which was discussed after the tsunami, and with Deut's post about the Riddle of Epicurus, and in Spinks' post of Robert Frost's poem, Design. Basically, why does suffering occur? Why would an omnipotent God allow suffering unless God is not good? Why would a good God allow suffering unless God is not omnipotent?

Does it portray a loving God? No and yes. On the one hand, this God calls attention to Job, causing Satan to question Job's loyalty. And then God gives Satan permission to take everything away from Job (including his seven sons and three daughters) and cause him to suffer from a horrible skin disease, thus making him a social outcast, since skin lesions are considered "unclean." Some Christians will say that Satan did this, but if one looks at the text, it's clear that God is the one who puts this ordeal into motion. On the other hand, God restores Job his fortunes in the end, multiplying his wealth and giving him back seven sons and three daughters. And whereas at the beginning of the story Job was anxious, worrying that perhaps his children had sinned against God in their hearts, at the end of the story Job is at ease, even naming his daughters after types of beauty and giving them inheritances (highly unusual) so that they would be independant. It is significant that the narrator tells us that Job names his daughters. Usually in the OT/Hebrew bible, women are not named unless they give birth to a male of interest or they are raped and killed. In this case, after much suffering, everyone indeed does live happily every after.

The conversations between Job and his three "friends" and Job and God are interesting. Job's three friends assume that God is just and rewards the good and punish the wicked. Therefore Job must be wicked. Job knows that he is not wicked and therefore concludes that God must not be just. All of them assume that God is behind the suffering (in which they are right) and that God operates via a human sense of justice (in which they are most likely mistaken). God, otoh, strongly suggests that humans are not the center of the universe - that lots of things in creation occur without any concern to humans. Yet God's words don't jive with what we know is going on - Job is so important to God that God has allowed all of these things to happen to him. God puts Job under a microscope. And God seems interested in Job's understanding of his ordeal. God seems dissatisfied with Job's first answer, given that God speaks a second time, taking a different tact. When Job answers a second time, God seems satisfied and proclaims that Job's friends did not speak the truth about God (even tho they were defending God) and Job has. What did Job say that satisfied God? Basically that God was beyond Job's understanding. Not just more powerful than Job, but beyond his understanding.

Does the book of Job provide an answer to the theodicy problem? People see in it what they want to see in it. Traditional Christians emphasize Job's patience and say that God rewarded Job because of that, but that really ignores the whole middle part of the book in which Job is anything but patient. Those who rebell against the traditional Christian view of God emphasize Job's ordeal and his legitimate complaints and say that the book proves that God is cruel and capricious. But that ignores the ending of the book. In truth, there is no simple way to look at Job that doesn't ignore one part of the story or another. It is full of contradictions, which is probably why it remains such an object of fascination. (I should add that the book of Job is my favorite book of the bible.)

Have I ever felt like Job? Very few in this world have suffered to the extent that Job did. Yet most of us have probably at one time or another wondered, "why me?" It took me a while to learn to stop asking that question.

Lightkeeper, what do you think of Job?

-lilith

lilithu · Jan 31, 2005

If you guys haven't already read it, I highly reccomend Archibald MacLeish's J.B. for a more modern, more humanist reworking of Job. It's awesome.

Scuba Pete · Jan 31, 2005

It rains on the just and the unjust alike.

Our rewards are not here.

Job's "life" was not ruined... just his temporal existence. That is but a nanosecond compared to eternity.

In suffering Job learned what was REALLY important and a lot about himself.

Everyone harps on the physical, the here and now. God is looking towards something far more permanent.

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