Christians Only: Is ALL religion false?

Can there be Christianity without "religion"? Is "religious Christianity" false Christianity?

Religion can be defined in various ways, but its popular connotation is any system of practice and observance intended to make people more acceptable to God. By that definition, authentic Christianity is not a religion – because authentic Christianity is not about human effort that enhances our standing with God, but about what God has done for us. - Greg Albrecht, www.ptm.org

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For purposes of this discussion only, I am going to stick with that definition:

"any system of practice and observance intended to make people more acceptable to God".

The claim is that there is NO system or observance or ritual that can make people more acceptable to God.

The claim is: No one is capable of making themselves more acceptable to God, there is NOTHING any human being can do to make themselves more acceptable to God.
(Technically, if you live by a strict moral code every moment of your life from day 1 and never do an evil thing or think an evil thought, you'll make it into heaven free and clear. But it's already too late for you and me to meet that criterion.)

The primary motivation for a Christian believer doing good works is gratitude and love for what has been done for us by our God through Christ. The target audience for our good works should not be those watching us from here below, but the One who watches from above. Doing good works is more a form of worship than anything else. In our feeble attempts to do good, we agree with God that he alone is good, and we want to try to be more like him. - www.ptm.org

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Period. End of story. We can't do good works to attain or "maintain" our salvation, which was and is a free gift.

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:3)

“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness” (2 Peter 1:3).

We have to depend on God for everything including the ability to live a life of godliness and to do HIS good works as opposed to OUR good works, for it is only the holy spirit and Christ living in us which can motivate and empower us in the right direction.

Everything else is ...well, filthy rags. So of what use are rituals, ceremonies, priests, go-betweens, formal confession, lighting candles, prayer beads, etc., and how are we to avoid legalism while engaging in communal worship?

Christians only, please let me hear your thoughts.

well if that's too boring, go here and see if you can tell what this thing is:

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/63222.html

Moon Woman said:

Everything else is ...well, filthy rags. So of what use are rituals, ceremonies, priests, go-betweens, formal confession, lighting candles, prayer beads, etc., and how are we to avoid legalism while engaging in communal worship?

Christians only, please let me hear your thoughts.

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This is a real Catch-22, as its the legalism that leads most people to conclude I'm not a "Christian." Though I personally consider myself to be "Christian" as Christianity is the religious language and symbolism I usually use and with which I am most familiar. Am I allowed to post my thoughts?

No.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

doppelgänger;855185 said:

This is a real Catch-22, as its the legalism that leads most people to conclude I'm not a "Christian." Though I personally consider myself to be "Christian" as Christianity is the religious language and symbolism I usually use and with which I am most familiar. Am I allowed to post my thoughts?

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Sure, if you personally consider yourself to be a Christian who are we to judge.

So what do you think of that ball of light on the courthouse video? Is it a ghost, a reflection, what?

*Paul* said:

No.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

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Paul, thanks for posting. Can you keep yourself unspotted from the world?

Moon Woman said:

Sure, if you personally consider yourself to be a Christian who are we to judge.

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Okay, good. To me the entire gospel story is about seeing the connection we have to one another and that we are all in this crazy, wonderful life together. That when we judge ourselves or others we are obstructing love and judging God and all creation. All the legalism is idolatrous in my opinion. It's impossible to get rid of all of it and still be a conscious human being. For that, there's grace.

I couldn't get the ghost video to load, but I'll try again.

Moon Woman said:

Paul, thanks for posting. Can you keep yourself unspotted from the world?

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Oh no, not me, it's much too late for me to do that perfectly or even come close, there's not much I haven't done in my life i'm afraid. AT the same time though in response to the thread title, it seems that the word religion is not used in any negative sense here.

Anything can be a religion. Bob Dylan once said that Coca-Cola could be a religion. Someone can be very, very religious without believing in God. In fact, the biggest religion is the worship of one's self (too many people don't even know that they do this)
But, the truth is, I can't answer the question. I won't even try.

doppelgänger;855219 said:

Okay, good. To me the entire gospel story is about seeing the connection we have to one another and that we are all in this crazy, wonderful life together. That when we judge ourselves or others we are obstructing love and judging God and all creation. All the legalism is idolatrous in my opinion. It's impossible to get rid of all of it and still be a conscious human being. For that, there's grace.

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Ah.... too profound. I am still trying to process it, the impossibility part.

I'm going to try and get a handle on the word legalism for purposes of this thread then. Rather than taking the broad view maybe we can narrow it down some to relate it strictly to Christianity:

Legalism is any system, rules, expectations or regulations that promise God's love in return for human effort and obedience. Under the cloak of Christianity legalism offers salvation as a reward for performance. Legalism is a spiritually toxic virus unique to humans, spread by religion, best treated by God's unconditional and amazing grace.

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For example with the idea Paul quoted:
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep (oneself) unspotted from the world.

I might be tempted after reading this to think we could construct a perfect "religion" around it, imagining that by visiting the fatherless and widows, and keeping oneself unspotted from the world, undefiled before God = Pure religion.

But then we would immediately find ourselves in the position of default again, never able to balance the ledger in our favor, because KEEPING ONESELF sinless/unspotted and undefiled before God is impossible.

Wonder if that's what James was trying to point out, though I doubt it.

Moon Woman said:

Paul, thanks for posting. Can you keep yourself unspotted from the world?

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I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Moon Woman said:

Can there be Christianity without "religion"? Is "religious Christianity" false Christianity?



For purposes of this discussion only, I am going to stick with that definition:

"any system of practice and observance intended to make people more acceptable to God".

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Moon, are you acceptable before God? Rather, are you more acceptable to God now than before you were a Christian? If yes, then it seems that Christianity falls under your own definition of religion (not that that's a bad thing in my mind, if we're going by the dictionary definition of "religion.")

We have to depend on God for everything including the ability to live a life of godliness and to do HIS good works as opposed to OUR good works, for it is only the holy spirit and Christ living in us which can motivate and empower us in the right direction.

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I agree, but I don't see how this makes Christianity any less of a religion.

Everything else is ...well, filthy rags. So of what use are rituals, ceremonies, priests, go-betweens, formal confession, lighting candles, prayer beads, etc., and how are we to avoid legalism while engaging in communal worship?

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Are you saying that we should avoid any form of ritualistic behavior at all? Including Baptism and Communion? I don't really see those things as "filthy rags," do you?

Strictly speaking, Christianity is not a religion, it's an archetype. But we couch that archetype in the language and framework of religion, because it's more easily conveyed that way. IMO, there is no such thing as false Christianity, because Christianity is an archetype of truth.

That's not saying that we can't be off-base in our theology or praxis, but the archetype itself cannot be false.

doppelgänger;855219 said:

Okay, good. To me the entire gospel story is about seeing the connection we have to one another and that we are all in this crazy, wonderful life together. That when we judge ourselves or others we are obstructing love and judging God and all creation. All the legalism is idolatrous in my opinion. It's impossible to get rid of all of it and still be a conscious human being. For that, there's grace.

I couldn't get the ghost video to load, but I'll try again.

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sounds right-down-the-line Christian to me.

Everything else is ...well, filthy rags. So of what use are rituals, ceremonies, priests, go-betweens, formal confession, lighting candles, prayer beads, etc., and how are we to avoid legalism while engaging in communal worship?

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I agree with Albrecht. What use are the rituals? The rituals are sacramental in nature -- that is, they are an outward sign of an inward grace (what God has done for us, as Albrecht says). They are not magic, nor do they effect anything in us. They only indicate to us what God has effected in us. That's the use of them: as windows into the Divine.

Christianity is not a collection of "things to do," nor is it a "system of belief." It is a way of being. The sacraments (whatever they are -- and, in the sense that I've used the term, the whole universe is sacramental) point us toward that way of being.

The claim is that there is NO system or observance or ritual that can make people more acceptable to God.

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Every Catholic I know would disagree with that for one.

Everything else is ...well, filthy rags. So of what use are rituals, ceremonies, priests, go-betweens, formal confession, lighting candles, prayer beads, etc., and how are we to avoid legalism while engaging in communal worship?

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I was raised Christian / Church of Christ, however I haven't been a "practicing" Christian for a very long time and it's that very reason...What you have described as "legalism". It's the basic reason I stopped going to Church. Who are humans to tell me what form of "practice" will make me more acceptable to God? However, not going to church leaves me with such an emptiness. As if I no longer feel the love of God. I've decided to try UU, but I won't get into that.

My thoughts have been for quite a while, from what little of the Bible I've read and from something said in the Dead Sea Scrolls, is that one of Christ's messages to us was: Stop believing what one person or group of people tell you what you "have" to do in order for God to love you. He loves all of you. All you need is but to ask for forgiveness and truly want it and it is given. One group believing you have to go through one process and another group believing that you have to go through another process is what causes us to fight amongst ourselves. I don't know if what I'm saying has any merit at all as I am typically confused when it comes to faith. But as for your question:

Can there be Christianity without "religion"? Is "religious Christianity" false Christianity?

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I would have to say yes and yes.

!Fluffy! said:

Can there be Christianity without "religion"? Is "religious Christianity" false Christianity?



For purposes of this discussion only, I am going to stick with that definition:

"any system of practice and observance intended to make people more acceptable to God".

The claim is that there is NO system or observance or ritual that can make people more acceptable to God.

The claim is: No one is capable of making themselves more acceptable to God, there is NOTHING any human being can do to make themselves more acceptable to God.
(Technically, if you live by a strict moral code every moment of your life from day 1 and never do an evil thing or think an evil thought, you'll make it into heaven free and clear. But it's already too late for you and me to meet that criterion.)




Period. End of story. We can't do good works to attain or "maintain" our salvation, which was and is a free gift.

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:3)

“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness” (2 Peter 1:3).

We have to depend on God for everything including the ability to live a life of godliness and to do HIS good works as opposed to OUR good works, for it is only the holy spirit and Christ living in us which can motivate and empower us in the right direction.

Everything else is ...well, filthy rags. So of what use are rituals, ceremonies, priests, go-betweens, formal confession, lighting candles, prayer beads, etc., and how are we to avoid legalism while engaging in communal worship?

Christians only, please let me hear your thoughts.

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Hi, Let me give you a few verses in the bible to think about. I know what alot of religious people say,but what does the bible say,and are some people ignoring parts of the word of god?

Please notice that we can please God by doing some things (1Thes.4:1-3). Jesus even says your my friend if and only if you follow my commandments (John 14:14,21 ;15:10,14) (1John 3:22-24) (Acts 10:34,35) (Heb.5:8,9) (Acts 2:40) (Luke 13;3) (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16) (John 3;5 ; 9:31).

Now let us notice a few scriptures which teach us that if we do not do certain things it will displease God (2Peter 2:20-22) (Heb.10:25-31) (Acts 8:22) (2Peter 1:10) (Gal.5:4) (1John 3;4) (Acts 13:46) (1Cor.10) (1John 3:12) (Gen.4:7)

Now this tells us our action/reaction to the word of God defines where we go for eternity (Rev.14:13) (Rom 2:8) (Rom 14:12) (2Cor.5:10,11).

I am not advocating working alone for salvation,that is not possible.What I am saying is that the word of God (the bible) teaches us that there is Gods part/mans part to the plan of salvation. If we will but look at (Titus 2:11,12) we can see this within this section of scripture. We see Gods part in (Titus 2:11) and we see mans part in (Titus 2:12).

It works similar to the way your car battery works on your car.Your car battery has two cables attached to it all the time. If one or both cables come loose,then your car will not start. It takes them both to start your car properly.

It takes grace and works to save a person as I have shown in the verses above.They work together similar to the way your car battery works with two cables. Faith is connected to works because it is the way Christains get their instructions from God (Rom.10:17) ( Heb.10).

I know what many religious people say,but what does the word of God say?

Now, let me say that (Eph.2:8,9) does not negate works.

And (James 2:24) does not negate faith or grace.

Anytime someone teaches any one of the above negates works or grace,they are doing harm to the word of God.

in love Baerly

Sorry I was away so long I completely forgot about this thread.

I'd just like to add a couple of thoughts here regarding some of the replies.

1. I don't worship the Bible. I worship Christ.
2. I don't worship a church. I worship Christ.
3. I believe there is for some, and could be for all, a way of life for Christians, THE WAY if you will, which precludes, overwhelms and exceeds any religious practice, which depends on the Holy Spirit for guidance, and which erases all denominational divisions.

I believe it is in place already. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The true church is the body of believers and we are here on earth right now. It is most evident when we come together and humble ourselves at the foot of the cross, and all let go of our pet idols including the urge to preach at each other, "correct" each other, and judge one another. When we let go and let God's love have its way with us and we allow ourselves to let go of our fear, hatred, anger and pride, we are truly one Body.

When we concentrate on the vertical relationship with God (eyes on heaven, so to speak) and refuse to focus on the horizontal relationship with religion (pushing favorite doctrines, judgmentalism, church politics, trying to impress others etc.) we are truly Christians.

In my humble opinion the best thing that happens to some Christians is when they leave the (brick and mortar) church.

sojourner said:

I agree with Albrecht. What use are the rituals? The rituals are sacramental in nature -- that is, they are an outward sign of an inward grace (what God has done for us, as Albrecht says). They are not magic, nor do they effect anything in us. They only indicate to us what God has effected in us. That's the use of them: as windows into the Divine.

Christianity is not a collection of "things to do," nor is it a "system of belief." It is a way of being. The sacraments (whatever they are -- and, in the sense that I've used the term, the whole universe is sacramental) point us toward that way of being.

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Cool. Very insightful post, thanks for sharing.