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Why should I believe the Bible is God's Inspiration?
- Thread starter Darkness
- Start date
Hi, here are some very good lessons on the subject of inspiration.
In Defense of...the Bibles Inspiration [Part I] URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2466
Date: 16 Jul 2007
Excerpt: 5 33 39 in defense of the bible s inspiration part i by bert thompson ph d...
6. Compromises of Genesis URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Compromises-of-Genesis.pdf
Date: 16 Nov 2004
Excerpt: school football game moses through inspiration detailed in genesis 3 the breaking... 7. Biblical Inerrancy URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2541
Date: 16 Jul 2007
Excerpt: holy spirit 2 peter 1 21 defining inspiration not only does the bible claim to be... 8. In Defense of...the Bible's Inspiration [Part II] URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2467
Date: 16 Jul 2007
Excerpt: 6 41 47 in defense of the bible s inspiration part ii by bert thompson ph d... 9. The Unity of the Bible URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3356
Date: 16 Jul 2007
Excerpt: trying to defend paul s claim of inspiration and direct revelation from christ... 10. Introductory Lesson 8--The Inspiration of the Bible URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/pdfs/courses_pdf/hsc0108.pdf
Date: 12 Nov 2004
Excerpt: lesson 8 web the inspiration of the bible in lesson 7 we learned... in love Baerly
In light of your first sentence above,please explain to me (2Thess.1:7-9) which teaches those who know not God and obey not the gospel will be punshed when Jesus returns.
in love Baerly
Scott1
Well-Known Member
So all non-Christians go to hell in your opinion?
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Hi, here is the verse in context:
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Notice to whom this vengeance and punishment with everlasting destruction is given. They not only "know not God", but they are those who put the church, the believers at Thessalonica through persecutions and tribulations, by whom the church suffers and is troubled. These CHOSE to "know not God", and CHOSE to "obey not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ", and CHOSE to persecute the believers who did. These are NOT those who never heard the Gospel but who did hear and were enemies of those who did believe.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Once again for the hard-of-hearing:
What does "wages" have to do with "punishment?"
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Huh? Like, what was that? Speak up, sonny. Whatever term we use, the punishment for sin, wages of sin, penalty of sin, is death. (Romans 6:23)
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But "whatever" term you use changes the theology of the statement. To say that the wages of sin is death is to say that death is a consequence of our having sinned. Much like hitting the ground real hard is a consequence of our having jumped off a cliff. Neither is a "punishment."
If death is not a punishment, but a consequence, then Christ could not be punished for something in our place. Christ could only accept the consequences in our place. Which renders the whole "substitutionary atonement" theology...null and void.
Christ's death destroyed death. We do not have to face the consequences of sin anymore, because Christ took care of that.
This is not about an angry God punishing God's children. This is about a loving God taking away the consequence of our sin.
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
From a basic reading of the Genesis text, really. The entire context of the "consequences" of Adam's sin is negative. It results in his shame, curses upon him and his wife, their expulsion from the Garden and God's immediate walk with them, etc.
Catholics, lol.
And pretty much all of mainstream Protestantism. Is that a "No," then?
I guess this is a difference of perspective. God said it through Paul. That's the definition of Scriptural inspiration.
Again, I guess this is a difference of perspective. If you think the letter to the Romans applies ONLY to the Romans, and no one else in Christendom, I'd again point out that you're pretty much on the outskirts of Christian thought there.
A negative one, yes.
And when you don't work, you don't get paid. You may even get fired. Again, as you say, a consequence...an obviously negative one.
Am I understanding correctly that you see death as something essentially positive? If yes, how do you come to that conclusion? If no, and you see it as essentially negative, then how can you see death as a consequence of sin without seeing it, implicitly, as a negative consequence (i.e. a punishment, for all intents and purposes)?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Negative consequences do not assume punishment.
Mainstream Protestants do not make up the majority of Christianity. Even so, I know that neither the Anglicans, nor the Orthodox see death as a punishment, and I doubt that the Romans do, either.Catholics, lol.
No. Nor is it a "yes." Why should it matter?Is that a "No," then?
Sorry. That dog won't hunt for me. That's not the definition of "Scriptural inspiration."
Doesn't apply only to the Romans, but the audience must be taken into account, if we really want to find out what Paul is saying. Otherwise, we're operating on a paradigm of opinion.
But not a punishment, nevertheless. I stress this because it completely skewes the theology of grace to see it as punishment, whether it's negative, or not.
Becaause negativity does not automatically imply "punishment." There's a huge difference, theologically, between "consequence" and "punishment." One is causation. The other is active penal praxis.
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Sorry, I should have been more clear...the article I linked you to the first time directly links to the second article in about its first paragraph or two. Since that dealt more directly with the Amalekites, I thought you should see it.
After their people picked off the weak and defenseless from Israel for a couple hundred years, and refused after numerous generations to be peaceful even though Israel left them completely alone, and it was obvious that the problem would continue if drastic measures weren't taken. Yes, that's correct.
No, I would find a way to punish you. I can't say I'd leave out butchering you as a reasonable possibility either; it would be exactly what you would deserve...just like the Amelikites deserved death after they repeatedly attacked Israel and murdered its weak.
When you figure out the difference between "question God," and "blaspheme the name of the LORD," then you'll notice the absurdity of your example.
"Now when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon, she came to Jerusalem to test Solomon with hard questions, having a very great retinue, camels that bore spices, gold in abundance, and precious stones; and when she came to Solomon, she spoke with him about all that was in her heart. So Solomon answered all her questions; there was nothing so difficult for Solomon that he could not explain it to her...[the queen said] 'Happy are your men and happy are these your servants, who stand continually before you and hear your wisdom! Blessed be the LORD your God, who delighted in you, setting you on His throne to be king for the LORD your God! Because your God has loved Israel, to establish them forever, therefore He made you king over them, to do justice and righteousness.'
'Come now, and let us reason together,' says the LORD,
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind."
Your feeble attempts to paint God as anti-intellectual are just that...feeble. When you discern the difference between "your own understanding" and "using reason," you hopefully will be able to figure out why your example does nothing to further your case.
"Be fruitful and multiply."
"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
I could quote practically the entire book of Song of Solomon, but I figure a direct command telling humans to have sex should be enough to show that God is hardly "repressive" about sex. Saying that you cannot have sex with whoever, whenever, and wherever you want is not "repressive." Debates about homosexual behavior are the subject of another thread (not that we haven't already veered terribly far off course).
Calling him morally abominable and a monster probably doesn't tip the scales of "your merits and commitments" terribly high for Him, though, does it?
You call my God, who was tortured and murdered on a cross while you sit there and mock Him, a morally abominable monster and suddenly I'm a meanie because I don't roll over and let you bash on Him? Your perspective is so inexplicably warped I don't even know where to begin.
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
When they are instituted by an authority (in this case, God) yes, it obviously assumes punishment.
Catholics and mainstream Protestants do not make up the majority of Christianity?
They see it as a negative consequent...instituted by God...as a result of man's sin against Him...that's a punishment, any way you slice it.
Why should it matter that a Christian church takes a position on salvation by Christ and its basic principles? I dearly hope the answer to that question is self-evident.
I'm afraid it is.
Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
I agree with you there. The book generally applies to the entire Christian Church, yet that statement takes even wider berth in application to all humanity, as that has been the reality since Adam, father of all living.
How so?
Unless you think the consequence for sin was set by anyone other than God Himself, you're left with the latter.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
The penalty, wages, punishment, sentence, consequence, judgement, or whatever of sin IS DEATH. Therefore in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Jesus took all the sins of the world upon him and the full wrath of God was poured out upon him for those sins. Death is not only a consequence of sin, it is the judgement, God's wrath poured out against sin.
Not at all. He who knew no sin was made sin for us that we may be made the righteousness of God in him. Christ was MADE sin for us, the WRATH of God was fully poured out on him for our sins, the righteous suffering for the unrighteous IN OUR PLACE. Christ's substitutionary death for me, in payment of my sins is the greatest truth of the Bible! Romans even declares:
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (IN PLACE OF, as a SUBSTITUTE)
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.[/quote]
I agree that Christ's death destroyed death and that BELIEVERS do not face the consequences, the judgement, the wrath of God of sin anymore. God does love us and in his great love for us poured out his wrath toward sin on his son, actually on himself. The penalty was paid, not waived, but paid. But only those who have accepted this gift, have trusted in Christ's atoning work on the cross are saved. Those who do not trust Christ to have paid for their sins must pay for them themselves--they are 'condemned already'. He who believes is saved and he who does not believe is damned, this is what the Lord himself said. This is the Gospel Truth, any other 'gospel' is a false and misleading gospel and only lures sinners into a false sense of security. This 'universal salvation' is a lie from the pits of Hell designed to enlarge Hell which is growing increasingly fuller every day. Jesus said, "He that believes in ME has eternal life!" If one denies Christ, does not accept the free gift, is an enemy of the cross, spouts ridicule and derision toward the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, they are damned! Wake up! There is only one name given among men whereby we MUST be saved, the Lord Jesus Christ!
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Here again, an actual VERSE which I have yet to see from some folks. This states Christ was offered (on the cross) to bear the sins of many, (i.e. in our place, as a substitute). And UNTO THOSE WHO LOOK FOR HIM, (i.e. that BELIEVE in him), he will return sinless and we shall be changed and our salvation shall be completed. The work of our salvation was complete at Calvary, the fact of our salvation was complete the moment we believed, and the glory of our salvation will be complete when Christ returns and these corrupt (sinful) bodies will be transformed incorruptible, immortal and glorified, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Praise God!
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Here again, an actual VERSE which I have yet to see from some folks. This states Christ was offered (on the cross) to bear the sins of many, (i.e. in our place, as a substitute). And UNTO THOSE WHO LOOK FOR HIM, (i.e. that BELIEVE in him), he will return sinless and we shall be changed and our salvation shall be completed. The work of our salvation was complete at Calvary, the fact of our salvation was complete the moment we believed, and the glory of our salvation will be complete when Christ returns and these corrupt (sinful) bodies will be transformed incorruptible, immortal and glorified, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Praise God!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
How? In what way does hitting the ground after having jumped off a cliff constitute punishment? The "authority" does not cause us to become hurt -- the ground does a sufficiently thorough job of that, all by itself. Death is a consequence. That has far-reaching implications for soteriology.
I called roll for the Catholics: Anglicans, Orthodox and Romans. Both the Anglicans and Orthodox do not view death as a punishment. I'm pretty sure the Romans do not, either, but we'd need to check with them. In any case, the Catholics comprise the majority of Christianity.
No, it isn't. Sorry.
**sigh**
The ECUSA is neither strictly universalist, nor exclusivist.
Nope. Sorry. That's not quite the same thing as "God said it." It may be, "God inspirted Paul to write it."
Inspiration (From Lat. inspirare, "to breathe in") That which moves humans to receive divine or supernatural truths, associated particularly with biblical writers in the writing of scripture. (2 Tim. 3:16; cf. 2 Peter 1:21)
From the Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms, Donald McKim; 1996 John Knox Press
Truth, as spelled out in human language by a human writer.
In short, because grace is a mitigatory action. God is mitigatory. Eternal punishment is contrary to God's nature as a God who does not act upon God's wrath.
Just because God "made the rules" does not mean that the consequences of having broken the rules are punitive. Punitive measures are corrective measures. Punishment is always meant to correct bad behavior. Hitting the ground after jumping off a cliff is not corrective in any way. Neither is banishing us eternally for something we did or refrained from doing.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Would it make you happy if I said, "The fake one, written by little pink unicorns?"
What kind of question s that?:cover:
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Just, nevermind for now.