Vanity/humility

I don't know if anyone out there has the same problem as I have. Commedian Dave Allen once had a sketch of a nun, running down a corridor, tripping on her habit. 'Damn' she muttered; 'Oh, God, I'm sorry, God' she said as she realized what she had said; etc ....

I have a problem with vanity and humility; knowing which is which, I mean....

Example; I help an old lady cross the road, because she's scared; as I leave her, I think 'That was nice of me' and with the thought comes 'Damn; I've ruined the good deed I've done by thinking of it as being a good deed - as if it is invalidated by my feeling good about having done something I thought was good,
Does anyone else feel the same way? as if you just cant win?:bonk:

Here's the thing. Maybe with Christianity this doesn't apply, which is the cause for your present worry. Everything is connected. There is a oneness to everything. Which is why when you do something good for someone, not only does it make the person feel good, it makes you feel good as well. This is not a bad thing, for if you feel good, those around you will feel good. Its like a vibe that is given off. And since we are all "one" so to speak, a good deed is always a good deed, no matter if you think it is or not.

michelhiernaux said:

Does anyone else feel the same way? as if you just cant win?:bonk:

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I think many people have felt this at one time or another. I certainly have.

Kierkegaard wrote beautifully about the tightrope that humans must walk in order to be a good Christian (but I think his words are valid for non-Christians as well). In his words, we must live knowing that we are both exalted by God and that we are miserable sinners. If we veer too far to the former, we become guilty of arrogance or, as you call it, vanity. If we veer too far to the latter, we are also wrong because we don't recognize God's love for us and fall into dispair, and that too is a kind of arrogance in its own way.

Another way to look at it is from the Hindu/Buddhist idea of karma. Even good karma is bad in that it perpetuates one's isolation as a separate "self". Even when we do good, if we do it for the sake of feeling good about ourselves, then we have defeated the purpose by drawing attention back onto ourselves. Only when we do good without thought to self do we achieve the true good of reducing karma. But how to achieve the liberation of ourselves without thinking about ourselves?

I have no answers for you around this dilemma. But I believe that while thinking better of oneself after a good deed may negate some of its goodness, it does negate all of it. All that we can ask of ourselves is that we genuinely try our best.

Why is the good deed ruined? Because it made you happy to do it? Just as long as you don't get too into how great you are (because that's just obnoxious), I see nothing especially wrong with it.

But yeah, to answer your question, I do feel that way a lot. Kinda feel like everything you do is selfish. But I still think the most important thing is the good deeds, the courtesy, etc, not congratulating yourself a bit for doing it. Sure, it's not the greatest thing, but hey, it's really not too bad either. You shouldn't just do it to make yourself feel like a good person (you should do it because it's a good thing to do), but if that's something that happens on the side, oh well.

standing_on_one_foot said:

Why is the good deed ruined? Because it made you happy to do it? Just as long as you don't get too into how great you are (because that's just obnoxious), I see nothing especially wrong with it.

But yeah, to answer your question, I do feel that way a lot. Kinda feel like everything you do is selfish. But I still think the most important thing is the good deeds, the courtesy, etc, not congratulating yourself a bit for doing it. Sure, it's not the greatest thing, but hey, it's really not too bad either. You shouldn't just do it to make yourself feel like a good person (you should do it because it's a good thing to do), but if that's something that happens on the side, oh well.

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Yea, especially the parts "not congratulating yourself a bit for doing it" and "You shouldn't just do it to make yourself feel like a good person". I like helping people, especially my immediate family, neighbours, and my ex-wife and two more ex-es and their families. I ask them not to thank me too much or to feel compelled to reciprocate, telling them that knowing Buddhism I know how selfish the action is in that I feel good afterwards. (My ex-wife is probably still some kind of a Christian, and gets rather annoyed at this kind of talk.) But what makes me feel good is that I make them happy (including any other people that I might have been helping), and so I hope that they in turn will be more inclined to help somebody, and so it will be a positive slippery slope, if imaginable. That can't be very wrong. Even from a Daoist perspective, I don't see this as violating the principle of wu wei (no action), because there are no negative effects on Nature.

michel said:

I don't know if anyone out there has the same problem as I have. Commedian Dave Allen once had a sketch of a nun, running down a corridor, tripping on her habit. 'Damn' she muttered; 'Oh, God, I'm sorry, God' she said as she realized what she had said; etc ....

I have a problem with vanity and humility; knowing which is which, I mean....

Example; I help an old lady cross the road, because she's scared; as I leave her, I think 'That was nice of me' and with the thought comes 'Damn; I've ruined the good deed I've done by thinking of it as being a good deed - as if it is invalidated by my feeling good about having done something I thought was good,
Does anyone else feel the same way? as if you just cant win?:bonk:

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I understand that entirely. In the nun's defense, much of that is also to train her. If you take certain actions, you can shape your mind, so repenting when you do something...even if your heart isn't in it straight-away, may help shape the mind.

On your second example, why feel bad? One did something good, and feeling good about it isn't the same as walking around and wearing it on your sleeve all day . I would definately say feeling good was a win.

Even when we do good, if we do it for the sake of feeling good about ourselves, then we have defeated the purpose by drawing attention back onto ourselves. Only when we do good without thought to self do we achieve the true good of reducing karma.

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But doing good only as a means of making ourselves feel good and doing good and feeling good about it afterwards are two different things, are they not? One is doing good with arrogance and self-service-to achieve that good feeling afterwards-a means to an end, while the other is doing good for the sake of doing good which ultimately leads to feeling good after-an end because of the means.

No matter what, one will always feel good about oneself after doing good, whether they admit this outright or not, you will still constantly get that good feeling afterwards. Michel, you just have to be sure you are doing said good deed for the right reasons, feeling good afterward is not the crime, doing it in order to feel good, however, is.

lilithu said:

I think many people have felt this at one time or another. I certainly have.
Another way to look at it is from the Hindu/Buddhist idea of karma. Even good karma is bad in that it perpetuates one's isolation as a separate "self". Even when we do good, if we do it for the sake of feeling good about ourselves, then we have defeated the purpose by drawing attention back onto ourselves. Only when we do good without thought to self do we achieve the true good of reducing karma. But how to achieve the liberation of ourselves without thinking about ourselves?

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Hi Lilithu, namaste.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear; somehow I thik you haven't understood quite what I meant. Of course I understand 'if we do good for the sake of feeling good......'. What I actually meant was, that, having done the good deed towards another for purely the best of motives -ie to help out someone, what if, AFTER the event I think 'Gosh, I'm pleased that I did that!' does that negate the 'good karma' from the well intentioned deed?

It seems to me that if you feel badly about feeling good when you help someone else that this would be an impediment to doing more good. It seems you are telling yourself that you shouldn't do good things for others because it makes you feel good. There is nothing wrong with patting yourself on the back, you are your own parent and friend. There is nothing wrong with feeling good for helping others. Win win situations are good.

I'm gonna write a book: "Feeling bad about doing good" an ascetic's approach to helping others.

First of all, PRIDE is a catch all word. Pride can be the opposite of humility, but it doesn't have to be.

There is the "bad" pride, that exalts YOU above others. This kind of pride makes you look down on others and avoid helping them. It puts your needs in front of theirs. Now THIS is the opposite of humilty.

Then there is "good" pride which is not pride at all. It is contentment. God hard wired that emotion into EVERY LIVING BEING (except cats). It comes from doing what is right. Whether it's doing a good turn, completing a task or scoring high on a test. It comes from that happy glow of accomplishment. This kind of "pride" does not put your needs in front of others, but actually enccourages the opposite.

So use this as a way to gauge yourself. "God opposes the "not humble"". If you haven't asked the newspapers to come take your picture while helping the old lady across the street, then you are just feeling some good ol' God given contentment. Bask away!.

My all time favorite verse in the Bible talks about this "contentment".

II Timothy 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

and...

Philippians 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

What I actually meant was, that, having done the good deed towards another for purely the best of motives -ie to help out someone, what if, AFTER the event I think 'Gosh, I'm pleased that I did that!' does that negate the 'good karma' from the well intentioned deed?

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I'm not sure of the Hindu/Buddhist ideas of Karma that Lilithu talks about, but in Pagan beliefs, No, these kind of afterthoughts do not negate the good karma of the well intentioned deed.

Michel , there is a reason why they say that one should never practice psychiatry on theirselves . If we analyize ourselves too much , it becomes a vicious circle . Just be thankfull that you are capable of doing good , of caring for others without thought of reward . { if a reward comes later , so be it . But the thing is , that wasn't what you had in mind when the deal was done } .

Yes , I have felt that way too . And no longer worry about it .