Problems With Religion

A. Ben-Shema · Jul 20, 2007

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]From my experiences of talking to many people about their religious beliefs, I conclude that very few, if any at all, have a genuine understanding of God / Truth / Spirit. Everyone seems to have different ideas about this or that aspect of God - whether S/He(?) is benevolent and forgiving, or harsh and vengeful. Generally, I find Christians to be the least united as far as beliefs are concerned. This can be clearly seen by the enormous number of different sects / creeds / divisions / heresies (=choices; or whatever you like to call them) in the Christian community. Other religions, too, have a variety of different sects and beliefs, but none to match the quantity within Christianity. As Christians all use the same scripture (NT), then why is it that they have so many different beliefs. If God had truly given them this book, why would S/He(?) have made it so difficult to understand and interpret correctly? Perhaps the Bible comes from satan and not from God? What do you think?[/FONT]

FatMan · Jul 20, 2007

A. Ben-Shema said:
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]From my experiences of talking to many people about their religious beliefs, I conclude that very few, if any at all, have a genuine understanding of God / Truth / Spirit. Everyone seems to have different ideas about this or that aspect of God - whether S/He(?) is benevolent and forgiving, or harsh and vengeful. Generally, I find Christians to be the least united as far as beliefs are concerned. This can be clearly seen by the enormous number of different sects / creeds / divisions / heresies (=choices; or whatever you like to call them) in the Christian community. Other religions, too, have a variety of different sects and beliefs, but none to match the quantity within Christianity. As Christians all use the same scripture (NT), then why is it that they have so many different beliefs. If God had truly given them this book, why would S/He(?) have made it so difficult to understand and interpret correctly? Perhaps the Bible comes from satan and not from God? What do you think?[/FONT]

I think a "genuine understanding" as you put it, means that somewhere, somebody must have the answer key to tell people who is right and who isn't. In other words, to judge whether or not somebody has a genuine understanding, the person doing the judging must have all knowledge. I find that take to be arrogant and not likely to be the case.

I think there are a lot of people who think they have the best understanding of religion and feel the need to make others know this point. However, nobody has given me a decent explanation of why this occurs. If you are right and darn well sure that you know it, why isn't that good enough?? That's the question to ask - not an argument about who is most right and why.

Seeing that most religions are exercises in interpretation, some people vastly overrate their interprative skills.

xexon · Jul 20, 2007

"Must have all knowledge"?

See, this is where religion goes off the rails. You think if you can fill your brain with knowledge, memorize scriptures, and do rituals, the gate to the kingdom magically opens. It doesn't.

You have to move beyond knowledge. Because God is beyond knowledge. Most people are simply not up to this task.

Jesus was known to be quite arrogant at times. Because when you're trying to wake people out of their mental slumber, those people will take offense at someone insinuating they asleep to begin with. They themselves cannot tell.

They prefer to listen to people who are as asleep as they are. Blind leading the blind.

Those who are awake can only watch as the masses continue their lives, asleep at the wheel.

We hear alot of talk from the religious about keeping the faith. This is only going to make you more comfortable in the bed you have made for yourselves. It's not about faith. Its about being awake enough to see where you're going.

x

sojourner · Jul 20, 2007

A. Ben-Shema said:
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]From my experiences of talking to many people about their religious beliefs, I conclude that very few, if any at all, have a genuine understanding of God / Truth / Spirit. Everyone seems to have different ideas about this or that aspect of God - whether S/He(?) is benevolent and forgiving, or harsh and vengeful. Generally, I find Christians to be the least united as far as beliefs are concerned. This can be clearly seen by the enormous number of different sects / creeds / divisions / heresies (=choices; or whatever you like to call them) in the Christian community. Other religions, too, have a variety of different sects and beliefs, but none to match the quantity within Christianity. As Christians all use the same scripture (NT), then why is it that they have so many different beliefs. If God had truly given them this book, why would S/He(?) have made it so difficult to understand and interpret correctly? Perhaps the Bible comes from satan and not from God? What do you think?[/FONT]

Your argument only works from a sola scriptura perspective, that is, all Godly truth must be contained within the Bible. That just isn't so. Perhaps one of the best features of Xy is that it is so three-dimensional and multi-faceted. At least our vision of God is not flat and one-sided...

I guess I don't look at that as a "problem" but a blessing.

wizanda · Jul 20, 2007

xexon said:
Jesus was known to be quite arrogant at times. Because when you're trying to wake people out of their mental slumber, those people will take offense at someone insinuating they asleep to begin with. They themselves cannot tell.

They prefer to listen to people who are as asleep as they are. Blind leading the blind.

Hab 2:2-20
(2) And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
(3) For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
(4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
(5) Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
(6) Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay (pledges)!
(7) Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall bite thee, and awake that shall vex thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them?
(8) Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the people shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and for the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dwell therein.
(9) Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!
(10) Thou hast consulted shame to thy house by cutting off many people, and hast sinned against thy soul.
(11) For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.
(12) Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and stablisheth a city by iniquity!
(13) Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?
(14) For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
(15) Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!
(16) Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD'S right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory.
(17) For the violence of Lebanon shall cover thee, and the spoil of beasts, which made them afraid, because of men's blood, and for the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dwell therein.
(18) What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
(19) Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
(20) But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

Mat 11:19
(19) The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Mat 10:42
(42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

So like said a few times now, these are all false, so blinding leading blind continues until it is fixed.

Luk 21:8
(8) And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I (EGO) am (I-Mee) Christ*; and the time draweth near (eggizo): go ye not therefore after them.
The word Christ is only mentioned in Matthew.

John Nicodemus a Pharisee 6:48
(48) I (EGO) am (I-Mee) that bread of life.
1 Simon (peter) the stone 4:7
(7) But the end of all things is at hand (eggizo): be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Romans (Metal empire) Saul/Paul 13:12
(12) The night is far spent, the day is at hand (eggizo): let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
James 5:8
(8) Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh (eggizo):

Isa 56:11-12
(11) Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
(12) Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

FatMan · Jul 20, 2007

Why even add anything to the discussion if you're just going to pull random quotes that don't address the topic??

Willamena · Jul 20, 2007

Maybe it's like a connect-the-dots thing.

A. Ben-Shema said:
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]As Christians all use the same scripture (NT), then why is it that they have so many different beliefs. If God had truly given them this book, why would S/He(?) have made it so difficult to understand and interpret correctly? Perhaps the Bible comes from satan and not from God? What do you think?[/FONT]

It gets worse: each and every individual has a different interpretation and a unique belief. But that's not a bad thing. The problem isn't understanding the book, but understanding ourselves. When we mistakenly think we have to think as others think, or what others think, then things get hairy.

Sonic247 · Jul 20, 2007

The devil appears as an angel of light, why do you think there a tons of religions, Christian or not that have Jesus in it? It's the religion that is under attack by Satan, it's the one he wants to confuse people about.

Willamena · Jul 20, 2007

Sonic247 said:
The devil appears as an angel of light, why do you think there a tons of religions, Christian or not that have Jesus in it? It's the religion that is under attack by Satan, it's the one he wants to confuse people about.

So, Sonic, which demonination is the correct one?

Storm · Jul 20, 2007

Sonic247 said:
The devil appears as an angel of light, why do you think there a tons of religions, Christian or not that have Jesus in it? It's the religion that is under attack by Satan, it's the one he wants to confuse people about.

Not the Diabolical Mimicry argument....

Is it so farfetched that other cultures might have taught similar stories because they shared the same wisdom? That God might actually deign to commune with non-Jews? Is exclusivism really so important to Christianity that you have to attribute the wisdom of other faiths to Satan? Does God really have to be a Semitic Supremacist?

Popeyesays · Jul 20, 2007

Perhaps it's the fault of the trinitarian predilection for chopping God up in chunks.

After all, if you can make three pieces of God (Father, Son, Spirit) then why not make it FOUR and add "Satan" to the list.

Those Christians who empower a Satan to be an equal with God and a partner with God are creating from their own imaginations a dualistic religion that Christ certainly never preached.

There is no SATAN, there is only satan. The only existence satan can have is within the human heart.

Satan can't come as an "Angel of Light" becausethat would make satan a partner with God and God is Single--without partners by definition.

Satan as "Prince of Darkness" is man's imagination puffed up to monumental proportions.; satan is that small voice which calls you to embrace the things of this world rather than God.

Regards,
Scott

Sonic247 · Jul 20, 2007

Storm said:
Not the Diabolical Mimicry argument....

Is it so farfetched that other cultures might have taught similar stories because they shared the same wisdom? That God might actually deign to commune with non-Jews? Is exclusivism really so important to Christianity that you have to attribute the wisdom of other faiths to Satan? Does God really have to be a Semitic Supremacist?

Well the Jews are a chosen people, but in Christ all are one. But there are always new groups springing up with a diffrent teaching of Jesus but if you look for common factors you'll see certain things that are changed consistently, such as the diety of Christ, eternal salvation, ect., it's a substitute: it has Jesus but it takes away the most important things about him, it makes him a "spiritual master" or "great teacher" and this hardly happens as much with other religions as with Christianity. It works on the same principal as a vaccine, it gives people a little Jesus and makes them immune to the real thing, there's a false religion that people follow that says the name "Jesus" and when people see it's fake the name Jesus then has a negative connotation in their minds.

Storm · Jul 20, 2007

Sonic247 said:
Well the Jews are a chosen people, but in Christ all are one. But there are always new groups springing up with a diffrent teaching of Jesus but if you look for common factors you'll see certain things that are changed consistently, such as the diety of Christ, eternal salvation, ect., it's a substitute: it has Jesus but it takes away the most important things about him, it makes him a "spiritual master" or "great teacher" and this hardly happens as much with other religions as with Christianity. It works on the same principal as a vaccine, it gives people a little Jesus and makes them immune to the real thing, there's a false religion that people follow that says the name "Jesus" and when people see it's fake the name Jesus then has a negative connotation in their minds.

That would be a "yes" to all, then. How depressing.

Sonic247 · Jul 20, 2007

Storm said:
That would be a "yes" to all, then. How depressing.

Not to all, I didn't answer if God only communicated to the Jews before the Gospel was sent into the world, he did communicate to other nations, but in other ways-
[
The more specific revalation that God gave the Jews would have profited them, but they didn't follow it, God said to Isaiah I didn't send you to a far away nation with a langauge you didn't understand, if I had they would have heard you.

Paul explained it better than I could

Romans 2:12- For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

sojourner · Jul 20, 2007

Sonic247 said:
Well the Jews are a chosen people, but in Christ all are one. But there are always new groups springing up with a diffrent teaching of Jesus but if you look for common factors you'll see certain things that are changed consistently, such as the diety of Christ, eternal salvation, ect., it's a substitute: it has Jesus but it takes away the most important things about him, it makes him a "spiritual master" or "great teacher" and this hardly happens as much with other religions as with Christianity. It works on the same principal as a vaccine, it gives people a little Jesus and makes them immune to the real thing, there's a false religion that people follow that says the name "Jesus" and when people see it's fake the name Jesus then has a negative connotation in their minds.

I think that Jesus can be whatever people need him to be. The truth of Christ is not found in pinning him down to a human definition. The truth of Christ is found in our following to the best of our ability.

Sonic247 · Jul 20, 2007

Well he is what people need him to be, he's the saviour. But he isn't customized for each person, he is always the same.

xexon · Jul 20, 2007

Sonic247 said:
Well the Jews are a chosen people, but in Christ all are one. But there are always new groups springing up with a diffrent teaching of Jesus but if you look for common factors you'll see certain things that are changed consistently, such as the diety of Christ, eternal salvation, ect., it's a substitute: it has Jesus but it takes away the most important things about him, it makes him a "spiritual master" or "great teacher" and this hardly happens as much with other religions as with Christianity. It works on the same principal as a vaccine, it gives people a little Jesus and makes them immune to the real thing, there's a false religion that people follow that says the name "Jesus" and when people see it's fake the name Jesus then has a negative connotation in their minds.

This addresses another problem I have with religion.

Jews are a "chosen" people. Who says this?

Jews.

Who wrote the bible that says so?

Jews.

Who started Christianity?

Jews.

Who is Christianity's most faithful friend?

Jews.

Anybody see a connection here?

To think that there is any such thing as a chosen people is just pure hogwash. The God I know shines equally on all people.

This is nothing more than a clever way of writing yourself into the history books to get a favorable status above others. They've been drawing interest off of this snow job ever since.

To declare one people above another people is racist tripe as far as I'm concerned.

It's the product of a cunning mind, not a Godly decree.

x

sojourner · Jul 20, 2007

Sonic247 said:
Well he is what people need him to be, he's the saviour. But he isn't customized for each person, he is always the same.

No, but people see different facets of Jesus, depending upon what they're able to see.

sojourner · Jul 20, 2007

xexon said:
This addresses another problem I have with religion.

Jews are a "chosen" people. Who says this?

Jews.

Who wrote the bible that says so?

Jews.

Who started Christianity?

Jews.

Who is Christianity's most faithful friend?

Jews.

Anybody see a connection here?

To think that there is any such thing as a chosen people is just pure hogwash. The God I know shines equally on all people.

This is nothing more than a clever way of writing yourself into the history books to get a favorable status above others. They've been drawing interest off of this snow job ever since.

To declare one people above another people is racist tripe as far as I'm concerned.

It's the product of a cunning mind, not a Godly decree.

x

Being that religion is an expression of culture, it's only natural that the religious theology and writins would emanate from the perspective of those involved, and that they would see themselves at the center of the religious story. Why would you expect anything different?

You're the only person in your religious story, so you have adopted the theology that only individuals matter, not groups. You are the only important person in your religion, just as Jews are the center of theirs.

Storm · Jul 20, 2007

sojourner said:
Being that religion is an expression of culture, it's only natural that the religious theology and writins would emanate from the perspective of those involved, and that they would see themselves at the center of the religious story. Why would you expect anything different?

You're the only person in your religious story, so you have adopted the theology that only individuals matter, not groups. You are the only important person in your religion, just as Jews are the center of theirs.

The problem comes when people confuse their own perspective with God's.

In other words, I don't have a problem with the Jews believing they have a unique understanding of God. After all, everyone has a unique understanding of God. I have a problem with the belief that their (or anyone's) unique understanding means that God loves them more, or blesses them more than everybody else.

I cannot believe that any deity who favors one ethnic group over another (i.e., is racist) is God.

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