Sinners in the hands of an angry God

Booko · Jul 18, 2007

Sonic247 said:
To make someone believe that they will be okay and let them go there merry way without warning them of danger is wrong. People don't mind if others talk about God to them as long as if when they leave they can just forget about it and go back to doing their own thing, but being right with God is more important than anything and if a person isn't they don't have anything.

And to scare the living crap out of someone from childhood on, so that they believe God is a sadist, so they eventually run away from any version of God as fast as possible, is stupidity of the highest order.

Yes, justice is one of the attributes of God.

So is mercy and forgiveness.

Yes, fear is a great motivator.

Love is a stronger one, and one that ends up with a more lasting faith.

Booko · Jul 18, 2007

Sonic247 said:
We have all done wrong thing like that and they eat away at us, since we did them God isn't under any obligation to take them away from us but he can if we come to him for forgivness. If we die in our sins they simply remain with us forever, we have a chance now to have them forgiven, but if we just keep telling ourselves we aren't sinners and we never get them taken care of they will destroy us forever, have you ever done something you wish you could take back and it makes things depressing, that is the death that sin brings and why hell is such a sad place with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The wrong things I have done don't eat at me. There are other methods of forgiveness that Edwards never dreamed of. And they don't resort to fanciful notions of demons and hellfire and eternal torment by a supposedly "loving" creature.

Imagine that.

Booko · Jul 18, 2007

Victor said:
Well, I guess we grew up with different concepts and views of it. It makes perfect sense to me that a God can love unconditionally while having a conditional relationship.

Yeah, but Victor, Catholics at least have purgatory. Whatever one may think of the practice of confession, it still gives Catholics a regular reminder of the need for repentance and the availability of God's forgiveness.

Those of us raised Calvinist never had such options.

Booko · Jul 18, 2007

Buttercup said:
The Catholic hell is much more pleasant....we've had this conversation before, Victor. Unfortunately, America has this obsessive crush on the fire and brimstone approach.

Well, as the author of "Religious Literacy" points out, Calvinists had great influence on this country up until, oh, somewhere after the 2nd Great Awakening I suppose.

Some of that influence was good -- such as the push for literacy.

Others...not so good.

Booko · Jul 18, 2007

Sonic247 said:
If someone is saying there is no hell then there must not be any sin either...

This is completely illogical.

And as your own religion is based on the older religion of Judaism, I should've thought you might know this.

Booko · Jul 18, 2007

Nihilo said:
The question is: Who is doing more of the inhuman terrors in the world? Religious folk, or non-believers?

There's plenty to go around, last time I checked.

Mercy Not Sacrifice · Jul 18, 2007

doppelgänger;882438 said:
Spinoza had a good handle on the basic problem. From his Ethics:

[E4P37]

PROP. 37. The good which every man, who follows after virture, desires for himself he will also desire for other men, and so much the more, in proportion as he has a greater knowledge of God.

(1) It would then follow that atheists who know a great deal about the supposed characteristics of God are, by default, great humanitarians.

(2) I have witnessed, both indirectly and directly, several instances of Christians who have point-blank violated this claim.

In his two proofs for this proposition, Spinoza offers the following:

n proportion as the mind's essence involves a greater knowledge of God, so also will be greater the desire of the follower of virtue, that other men should possess that which he seeks as good for himself.

Again, my observations contrast starkly with this claim. (This does not mean that I believe all Christians are bad--far from it--but that by no means are they as people entirely good.)

The good, which a man desires for himself and loves, he will love more constantly, if he sees that others love it also; he will therefore endeavour that others should love it also; and as the good in question is common to all, and therefore all can rejoice therein, he will endeavour, for the same reason, to bring about that all should rejoice therein, and this he will do the more, in proportion as his own enjoyment of the good is greater.

Click to expand...

Sociopaths would do no such thing. In fact they may deprive others of love for this very reason.

But Spinoza offers us an important caution in his notes to this proposition:

He who, guided by emotion only, endeavours to cause others to love what he loves himself, and to make the rest of the world live according to his own fancy, acts solely by impulse, and is, therefore, hateful, especially, to those who take delight in something different, and accordingly study and, by similar impulse, endeavour, to make men live in accordance with what pleases themselves.
The danger of a zealous, emotional fervor for what I know to be the Truth is that its rejection by others might be taken by me as a rejection of me. Thus, the evangelical impulse borne out of love becomes a vehicle of hatred.

There is an inherent violence in not genuinely listening to the stories of others' journeys and assuming that I have a nugget of Truth that they don't because they may choose to express it with different symbols or ideas than the ones I prefer.

Click to expand...

Now this has a good point. I think that it is a good idea to hear people out on how they see the world--to a point. If a belief is just point-blank wrong, and the implications of said belief are dire (exaggerated example: child sacrifice), by all means we have the right to oppose them.

MysticSang'ha said:

I'd like to give this version of the vengeful God a big squishy hug. :rainbow1:

Peace,
Mystic

Click to expand...

Yeah. Hope he doesn't damn you in retaliation!

Sonic247 said:

If you died right now and didn't believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose again he would, and the condemnation is "light has come into the world but men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil." But if you believe you wouldn't. And I hope you are never there by the way.

Click to expand...

I heard on another forum that Christian salvation is about nothing more than which team you play for.

This idea appears to reinforce that idea.

MysticSang'ha · Jul 18, 2007

Mercy Not Sacrifice said:
Yeah. Hope he doesn't damn you in retaliation!

Hmmm, maybe you're right. My big squishy hugs can get a little suffocating.

I heard on another forum that Christian salvation is about nothing more than which team you play for.

This idea appears to reinforce that idea.

I agree, although not all Christians play by those exact rules. I'm quite grateful for that.

Peace,
Mystic

doppelganger · Jul 18, 2007

Mercy Not Sacrifice said:
(1) It would then follow that atheists who know a great deal about the supposed characteristics of God are, by default, great humanitarians.
(2) I have witnessed, both indirectly and directly, several instances of Christians who have point-blank violated this claim.
Again, my observations contrast starkly with this claim. (This does not mean that I believe all Christians are bad--far from it--but that by no means are they as people entirely good.)

Well, Spinoza's "God" and the Christian "God" are not necessarily the same thing, so I'd suggest caution.

It's no accident that despite talking incessantly about "God," Spinoza is regarded as an atheist in many academic circles. :yes:

His "God" is the undivided unitary "Substance" beyond form in language (i.e. what modern atheists would tend to call "nature" or "the universe").

Spinoza was a mystic from a Jewish heritage.

Mercy Not Sacrifice · Jul 18, 2007

MysticSang'ha said:
Hmmm, maybe you're right. My big squishy hugs can get a little suffocating.

Ha! You might get stuck to him, and he'd have to go to hell with you.

I agree, although not all Christians play by those exact rules. I'm quite grateful for that.

Peace,
Mystic

Well sure. I'm not convinced how faithful this is to the text of the Bible, but hey, you gotta give 'em credit for their wilful benevolence.

doppelgänger;883828 said:
Well, Spinoza's "God" and the Christian "God" are not necessarily the same thing, so I'd suggest caution.

It's no accident that despite talking incessantly about "God," Spinoza is regarded as an atheist in many academic circles. :yes:

His "God" is the undivided unitary "Substance" beyond form in language (i.e. what modern atheists would tend to call "nature" or "the universe").

Spinoza was a mystic from a Jewish heritage.

Ahhhh. But what was he getting at then?

doppelganger · Jul 18, 2007

Mercy Not Sacrifice said:
Ahhhh. But what was he getting at then?

When people experience the joy of finding mystic experience and unity with "God," they want to share it with others, but if they don't pay heed to the fact that others also experience it, but may prefer a different mode of communicating about it, what the "believer" intends as love becomes an act of hate.

Pariah · Jul 18, 2007

After reading *Paul*'s introduction, I was expecting a bit more enthusiasm. John Edwards' word choice his poor on most accounts, powerful in a few others, and yet not altogether masterful. After having read it simply for tips on powerful speech, I found it lacking.

These lines are deserving of creative recognition:
- Using parallel structure can greatly increase the power of speech, giving it a rhythmic flow.
"Were it not that so is the sovereign
pleasure of God, the earth would not bear you one moment; for you are a burden to it; the
creation groans with you; the creature is made subject to the bondage of your corruption,
not willingly; the sun don’t willingly shine upon you to give you light to serve sin and
Satan; the earth don’t willingly yield her increase to satisfy your lusts; nor is it willingly a
stage for your wickedness to be acted upon; the air don’t willingly serve you for breath to
maintain the flame of life in your vitals, while you spend your life in the service of God’s
enemies."

"...and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of
God that holds the waters back that are unwilling to be stopped, and press hard to go
forward; if God should only withdraw his hand from the floodgate, it would immediately
fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God would rush forth with
inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power; and if your
strength were ten thousand times greater than it is, yea ten thousand times greater than
the strength of the stoutest, sturdiest devil in hell, it would be nothing to withstand or
endure it."

Buttercup · Jul 18, 2007

Sonic247 said:
And hitting someone in the eye with a fish is not love.

You're being whomped over the head with a tuna, but it's all in fun and teasing. Notice the smile the one on the left has?

Sonic, what is your motivation for continually telling people about hell? Just curious.

Quagmire · Jul 18, 2007

Sonic247 said:
And hitting someone in the eye with a fish is not love.

Are you kidding? In some cultures it's considered a marriage proposal.

TheGreaterGame · Jul 18, 2007

Sonic247 said:
Since this is what many of the debates here are about I thought it would make sense to put a thread about this sermon here instead of comparitive religion,- this is the sermon by Jonathan Edwards- http://edwards.yale.edu/images/pdf/sinners.pdf , this is a pretty classic sermon, I even remember reading some of it in a literature book in school which was anything but Christian, but here is the whole thing, what are you're thoughts on it?

This is a great sermon, but Edwards is well known for a host of other writings. "The End For Which You Were Made." Edwards was probrably the greatist thinker in the 18th Century.

Mickey Mouse · Jul 19, 2007

Sonic247 said:
Since this is what many of the debates here are about I thought it would make sense to put a thread about this sermon here instead of comparitive religion,- this is the sermon by Jonathan Edwards- http://edwards.yale.edu/images/pdf/sinners.pdf , this is a pretty classic sermon, I even remember reading some of it in a literature book in school which was anything but Christian, but here is the whole thing, what are you're thoughts on it?

I know Jonathan Edwards the Calvinist. What do you think about him?

joeboonda · Jul 19, 2007

TheGreaterGame said:
This is a great sermon, but Edwards is well known for a host of other writings. "The End For Which You Were Made." Edwards was probrably the greatist thinker in the 18th Century.

So, true! As was the Lord Jesus Christ. Funny how they both thought it of great importance to warn folks about Hell and show them the way to avoid it? We forget the holiness of God and how nothing unclean can abide in His presence for He is a consuming fire of holiness around whom no sin can abide. And we are sinners! We are not holy at all! We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God! This is the truth, for holiness is an attribute of God. But He has provided the way to reconcile us to Him by giving us Christ's holiness or righteousness in place of our own which is as filthy rags. Because He is holy we cannot live in His immediate presence for we would be consumed, but because He is love, He Himself died that we may live and be reconciled to Him and be able to live in His presence. Jonathon and Jesus did not lie, and I am not going to lie either, folks are in danger who have not trusted in Christ for salvation. Jon and Jesus warned us of the danger and shown us the way to avoid it. If I were asleep in my house and it was on fire, I would not want someone to say that I may be sleeping and I should not disturb his rest, I would want them to yell fire! Fire! that I might be saved. Of course I can only say what they said, I cannot tell anyone what to do or believe, so I won't, I will just tell what they said and let folks do with it what they will.

Mickey Mouse · Jul 19, 2007

joeboonda said:
So, true! As was the Lord Jesus Christ. Funny how they both thought it of great importance to warn folks about Hell and show them the way to avoid it? We forget the holiness of God and how nothing unclean can abide in His presence for He is a consuming fire of holiness around whom no sin can abide. And we are sinners! We are not holy at all! We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God! This is the truth, for holiness is an attribute of God. But He has provided the way to reconcile us to Him by giving us Christ's holiness or righteousness in place of our own which is as filthy rags. Because He is holy we cannot live in His immediate presence for we would be consumed, but because He is love, He Himself died that we may live and be reconciled to Him and be able to live in His presence. Jonathon and Jesus did not lie, and I am not going to lie either, folks are in danger who have not trusted in Christ for salvation. Jon and Jesus warned us of the danger and shown us the way to avoid it. If I were asleep in my house and it was on fire, I would not want someone to say that I may be sleeping and I should not disturb his rest, I would want them to yell fire! Fire! that I might be saved. Of course I can only say what they said, I cannot tell anyone what to do or believe, so I won't, I will just tell what they said and let folks do with it what they will.

Could you please share with you think about the Calvinism of Edwards? Several of you said that Edwards is the greatest thinker in the 18th century. Therefore, do you accept his idea of predestination?

sojourner · Jul 19, 2007

Why aren't we talking about "sinners in the hands of a loving God?"

The Bible points out that God's anger is always abated and that God chooses not to wreak God's anger on us. Doesn't that make the title of the thread sort of moot?

MysticSang'ha · Jul 19, 2007

sojourner said:
Why aren't we talking about "sinners in the hands of a loving God?"

The Bible points out that God's anger is always abated and that God chooses not to wreak God's anger on us. Doesn't that make the title of the thread sort of moot?

So does that mean my big squishy hug might help? :rainbow1:

Peace,
Mystic

Sinners in the hands of an angry God

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