Was Jesus A Gnostic?

slabbey06 said:

If Jesus had to "experience" truth in order to be truth, that means at one point He wasn't truth. He is truth now, He was truth in eternity past, and He will be truth in eternity future because He is God. Truth flows out of who He is, not out of what He experienced/experiences. If He had to experience truth to be truth, that means there is something out there bigger than He is, which would mean He isn't God. He is God, so He doesn't have to experience it in order to be it.

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I do not agree. You seem to be mixing up the human 'Jesus', with the Spiritual 'Christ' (the Logos). Jesus (the man) had a beginning (i.e. c. 6 B.C.) and an end (c. 30 A.D.). It is the Christ which has no beginning nor end!

Peace & Love

slabbey06 said:

If Jesus had to "experience" truth in order to be truth, that means at one point He wasn't truth. He is truth now, He was truth in eternity past, and He will be truth in eternity future because He is God. Truth flows out of who He is, not out of what He experienced/experiences. If He had to experience truth to be truth, that means there is something out there bigger than He is, which would mean He isn't God. He is God, so He doesn't have to experience it in order to be it.

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I will agree with Slabbey and say that Jesus was not a genuine gnostic. If you hold a trinitarian view like Slabbey and I do, Jesus was God and therefore having first hand divine knowledge of God would indicate Jesus was less than God. As Sonic said, I'm not sure about the other prophets that you mentioned but for the most part, Christians don't hold to the view that he was a prophet. Jesus never claimed to be such but according to the bible claimed divinity status and worship. You either have to accept his claim (whether you agree is a different story) or paint him as a lunatic. He was fully God and fully man at the same time. His coming to earth in flesh form does not change his status of divinity.

jringer04 said:

I will agree with Slabbey and say that Jesus was not a genuine gnostic. If you hold a trinitarian view like Slabbey and I do, Jesus was God and therefore having first hand divine knowledge of God would indicate Jesus was less than God. As Sonic said, I'm not sure about the other prophets that you mentioned but for the most part, Christians don't hold to the view that he was a prophet. Jesus never claimed to be such but according to the bible claimed divinity status and worship. You either have to accept his claim (whether you agree is a different story) or paint him as a lunatic. He was fully God and fully man at the same time. His coming to earth in flesh form does not change his status of divinity.

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Agreed jringer04. You can't separate His Humanity from His Deity because He is both fully. So while he grew in knowledge of things in His humanity, it's not the same as when we learn new things. We have to learn things because we're imperfect. In His humanity, Jesus Christ is perfect, without any spot or blemish. He's the same in His Deity. He IS fully God, yet He humbled Himself by taking on flesh and for a short while decided not to use certain of His divine attributes. I don't think that makes Him a gnostic.

I'm still wondering what genuine gnosticism encompasses.

You absolutely MUST seperate his human nature from the Deity. There is really no way around it. There is a reason why people say that He is a 50/50 split between human and Divine. Jesus had to grow in knowledge and in favor with God. He did not begin His mission until He was around 30 years old. This was by the Will of God, not His own will. If He was God, would He have begun His mission a little earlier? Or did He have to grow in favor with God and learn the things which He taught to humanity? Chances are He had to learn such things, whether from the religious teachers or God.

What an insult to Jesus to bring him down to the same level as other teachers, he clearly said, "No man comes to the Father but by me" not "No man comes to the Father but but by me or my succesor or another spitual master." You're choice is to say Jesus is Lord or call him a liar, he didn't intend to be lumped together with all these other people, he is the only beggoten Son of God. So glue all those other teachers together if you wish but leave Jesus out of it.

He also did not come to be worshipped, but to turn the people's hearts towards God, His Father. Jesus was a man, the Christ, or annointed of God, who taught the people of Israel the true faith of Judaism where the Law is written upon the heart. He freed the people from the dogmas of the time and taught that love is the basis of the Law. The people of that time were wise in the Law of Moses, but ignorant of true love. They ridiculed those sent to them by God, including Jesus. They put the body of Jesus to death, for they seen Him as a threat to their power. He rose, whether spritually or phyically to Heaven. Which one really makes no difference. The Christ Spirit was not put to death upon the cross.

That in no way lowers Jesus unless you believe that Jesus is God Almighty. Otherwise, it is simply a teaching that Jesus came to GLORIFY God, not to glorify Himself. He taught the things of God, not the teachings of His own creation.

He rose, whether spritually or phyically to Heaven. Which one really makes no difference. The Christ Spirit was not put to death upon the cross.

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Then he wouldn't rise spiritually because his spirit wouldn't change at all.

That in no way lowers Jesus unless you believe that Jesus is God Almighty.

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Hebrews 1:8 ..unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Otherwise, it is simply a teaching that Jesus came to GLORIFY God, not to glorify Himself. He taught the things of God, not the teachings of His own creation.

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Colossians 1:14- In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus accepted worship from people on many different occasions. The Jewish Religious leaders wanted to kill Him because they knew He was claiming to be God. He claimed He was God and did things only God can do. I think this may be a good topic for a new thread. Is Jesus fully God and fully Man?

Sonic247 said:

What an insult to Jesus to bring him down to the same level as other teachers, he clearly said, "No man comes to the Father but by me" not "No man comes to the Father but but by me or my succesor or another spitual master." You're choice is to say Jesus is Lord or call him a liar, he didn't intend to be lumped together with all these other people, he is the only beggoten Son of God. So glue all those other teachers together if you wish but leave Jesus out of it.

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It does not bring Him down to recognize the station of the Others.

Those who love the LIGHT should not be confused by letting their love for a particular Lamp shut the LIGHT from their eyes.

"All the Prophets have been the promoters of these principles; none of Them has been the promoter of corruption, vice or evil. They have summoned mankind to all good. They have united people in the love of God, invited them to the religions of the unity of mankind and exhorted them to amity and agreement. For example, we mention Abraham and Moses. By this mention we do not mean the limitation implied in the mere names but intend the virtues which these names embody. When we say Abraham, we mean thereby a manifestation of divine guidance, a center of human virtues, a source of heavenly bestowals to mankind, a dawning point of divine inspiration and perfections. These perfections and graces are not limited to names and boundaries. When we find these virtues, qualities and attributes in any personality, we recognize the same reality shining from within and bow in acknowledgment of the Abrahamic perfections. Similarly, we acknowledge and adore the beauty of Moses. Some souls were lovers of the name Abraham, loving the lantern instead of the light, and when they saw this same light shining from another lantern, they were so attached to the former lantern that they did not recognize its later appearance and illumination. Therefore, those who were attached and held tenaciously to the name Abraham were deprived when the Abrahamic virtues reappeared in Moses. Similarly, the Jews were believers in Moses, awaiting the coming of the Messiah. The virtues and perfections of Moses became apparent in Jesus Christ most effulgently, but the Jews held to the name Moses, not adoring the virtues and perfections manifest in Him. Had they been adoring these virtues and seeking these perfections, they would assuredly have believed in Jesus Christ when the same virtues and perfections shone in Him. If we are lovers of the light, we adore it in whatever lamp it may become manifest, but if we love the lamp itself and the light is transferred to another lamp, we will neither accept nor sanction it. Therefore, we must follow and adore the virtues revealed in the Messengers of God -- whether in Abraham, Moses, 153 Jesus or other Prophets -- but we must not adhere to and adore the lamp. We must recognize the sun, no matter from what dawning point it may shine forth, be it Mosaic, Abrahamic or any personal point of orientation whatever, for we are lovers of sunlight and not of orientation. We are lovers of illumination and not of lamps and candles. We are seekers for water, no matter from what rock it may gush forth. We are in need of fruit in whatsoever orchard it may be ripened. We long for rain; it matters not which cloud pours it down. We must not be fettered. If we renounce these fetters, we shall agree, for all are seekers of reality.
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

Regards,
Scott

slabbey06 said:

Jesus accepted worship from people on many different occasions. The Jewish Religious leaders wanted to kill Him because they knew He was claiming to be God. He claimed He was God and did things only God can do. I think this may be a good topic for a new thread. Is Jesus fully God and fully Man?

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Worship of Himself? No. Cite and enumerate your references please.

Regards,
Scott

Sonic247 said:

What an insult to Jesus to bring him down to the same level as other teachers, he clearly said, "No man comes to the Father but by me" not "No man comes to the Father but but by me or my succesor or another spitual master." You're choice is to say Jesus is Lord or call him a liar, he didn't intend to be lumped together with all these other people, he is the only beggoten Son of God. So glue all those other teachers together if you wish but leave Jesus out of it.

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There is no gluing together. Each is complete. None is complete without the Others.
The Voice of God is ONE. The Source of Revelation is ONE God.

From my point of view your declaration is like a child in a thunderstorm, plugging his ears until the noise goes away.

The noise does not go away.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

Worship of Himself? No. Cite and enumerate your references please.

Regards,
Scott

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Jesus heard that they had put him (the blind man he healed) out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" (Daniel 7)
36He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"
37Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you."
38And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him. John 9:35-38



26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20: 26-29



50And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.
51While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven.
52And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
53and were continually in the temple praising God. Luke 24:50-53



And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples.
9And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.
10Then Jesus said to them, "(I)Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me." Matt. 28: 8-10



But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Matt. 28:16-18



There are more, but I think this gets the point across.

slabbey06 said:

Jesus heard that they had put him (the blind man he healed) out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" (Daniel 7)
36He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"
37Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you."
38And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him. John 9:35-38

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To believe in the Son of Man is not an act of worship.

slabbey06 said:

26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20: 26-29

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Thomas said, My Lord and My God as an exclamation, not to worship Jesus as God. How many times does one say "My Lord!" in amazement? It's not worship, nor a claim that the object of amazement is God in person.

slabbey06 said:

50And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.
51While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven.
52And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
53and were continually in the temple praising God. Luke 24:50-53

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Darby:
"50And he led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed them.

51And it came to pass as he was blessing them, he was separated from them and was carried up into heaven.
52And *they*, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. "

Young's Literal:
"50And he led them forth without -- unto Bethany, and having lifted up his hands he did bless them,

51and it came to pass, in his blessing them, he was parted from them, and was borne up to the heaven;
52and they, having bowed before him, did turn back to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

And this does not cover the concept that the object was worship of GOD, as the followers returned to the Temple and did just that.

slabbey06 said:

And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples.
9And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.
10Then Jesus said to them, "(I)Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me." Matt. 28: 8-10

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Darby
8And going out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, they ran to bring his disciples word.

9And as they went to bring his disciples word, behold also, Jesus met them, saying, Hail! And they coming up took him by the feet, and did him homage. 10Then Jesus says to them, Fear not; go, bring word to my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there they shall see me.

Young's Literal:
"8And having gone forth quickly from the tomb, with fear and great joy, they ran to tell to his disciples;

9and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!' and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him. 10Then saith Jesus to them, `Fear ye not, go away, tell to my brethren that they may go away to Galilee, and there they shall see me.'

Main Entry: hom·age javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?homage02.wav=homage') javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?homage01.wav=homage')
Pronunciation: 'ä-mij, 'hä-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French homage, omage, from home man, vassal, from Latin homin-, homo human being; akin to Old English guma human being, Latin humus earth -- more at [SIZE=-1]HUMBLE[/SIZE]
1 a : a feudal ceremony by which a man acknowledges himself the vassal of a lord b : the relationship between a feudal lord and his vassal c : an act done or payment made in meeting the obligations of vassalage
2 a : expression of high regard : [SIZE=-1]RESPECT[/SIZE] -- often used with pay b : something that shows respect or attests to the worth or influence of another : [SIZE=-1]TRIBUTE[/SIZE] <his long life filled with international homages to his unique musical talent -- People>
synonym see [SIZE=-1]HONOR[/SIZE]

slabbey06 said:

But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Matt. 28:16-18



There are more, but I think this gets the point across.

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Young's Literal:

"

16And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them,
17and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver.
18And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;
19having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

Darby:
"

16But the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them.
17And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted.
18And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth.
19Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; 20teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, *I* am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. "


In short the Greek language distinguishes nuances between "worship", "bow down" and "homage" It's a shame the translators of the King James did not honor the nuance.

Regards,
Scott

Thomas said, My Lord and My God as an exclamation, not to worship Jesus as God. How many times does one say "My Lord!" in amazement? It's not worship, nor a claim that the object of amazement is God in person.

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Yea, Thomas just used the Lords name in vain when he realized Jesus was the son of God right in front of him, I've seen people say "Oh my God." but not "my Lord and my God" and I don't think one of the apostles would say that right in front of Jesus.

Sonic247 said:

Yea, Thomas just used the Lords name in vain when he realized Jesus was the son of God right in front of him, I've seen people say "Oh my God." but not "my Lord and my God" and I don't think one of the apostles would say that right in front of Jesus.

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Actually the reason Jesus came to us is so that we might look at Him and become overawed with the love of GOD. You can't contain the ocean in a teaspon and you can't contain the glory of God within the vessel of human flesh.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

Main Entry: hom·age
Pronunciation: 'ä-mij, 'hä-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French homage, omage, from home man, vassal, from Latin homin-, homo human being; akin to Old English guma human being, Latin humus earth -- more at [SIZE=-1]HUMBLE[/SIZE]
1 a : a feudal ceremony by which a man acknowledges himself the vassal of a lord b : the relationship between a feudal lord and his vassal c : an act done or payment made in meeting the obligations of vassalage
2 a : expression of high regard : [SIZE=-1]RESPECT[/SIZE] -- often used with pay b : something that shows respect or attests to the worth or influence of another : [SIZE=-1]TRIBUTE[/SIZE] <his long life filled with international homages to his unique musical talent -- People>
synonym see [SIZE=-1]HONOR[/SIZE]


In short the Greek language distinguishes nuances between "worship", "bow down" and "homage" It's a shame the translators of the King James did not honor the nuance.

Regards,
Scott

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Thank you for this response. It challenged me to think and to go search the Scriptures. Which is always a good thing! Here is what I have found in my study of the New Testament Greek word translated "worship." I'm going to quote from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.. and then I'll comment.

"1. proskuneo. 'To make obeisance, do reverence to,' is the most frequent word rendered 'to worship.' It is used of an act of homage or reverence to (a) God, e.g., Matt. 4:10; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor. 14:25; Rev. 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16; 19:10 (2nd part) and 22:9 (b) to Christ, e.g., Matt. 2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9, 17; John 9:38;..... The worship of God is nowhere defined in Scripture. A consideration of the above verbs shows that it is not confined to praise; broadly it may be regarded as the direct acknowledgment to God, of His nature, attributes ways and claims, whether by the outgoing of the heart in praise and thanksgiving or by deed done in such acknowledgment." (page 686 in my edition)

So, the same Greek word that is translated "worship" is used for both God the Father and Jesus. I find that interesting. The Greek language is MUCH richer in vocabulary than English is. So if Matthew and John (sticking to the above references) wanted to make a distinction between "worship" of the Father and the Son, it would have been very easy. (I realize I'm getting into that I believe in the Trinity here, but please bear with me).
For the sake of argument, let's say that Jesus really wasn't accepting worship, but only obeisance or reverence. In Revelation 22:8-9, John says, "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, 'Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.'"... It's the same Greek word. So regardless if it is translated worship or obeisance angels refuse to accept it. It belongs to God only. Yet it was given to Jesus and He accepted it. He didn't tell people to stop like the angel did.
This probably won't convince you, and I'm not trying to. However, it seems clear to me that Jesus was acknowledged in ways that belong to God and God alone. And I 100% believe that is because He is God.

P.S. It doesn't really matter, but I use the NASB, not the KJV.

Sonic247 said:

Then he wouldn't rise spiritually because his spirit wouldn't change at all.

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What ARE you saying? The Spirit NEVER changes - it is ETERNAL and CHANGELESS - it is TRUTH!

Colossians 1:14- In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

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This is the false teaching of Paul - the author of Christianity. The religion would be better called Paulism.

Jesus had authority to forgive sins while living, without the necessity of His death:
Matt 9:5-6 "Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ."

It seems also that Jesus bestowed this authority to His initiated disciples:
John 20:22-23 "And with that he [Jesus] breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

What say ye?

Peace & Love

slabbey06 said:

Thank you for this response. It challenged me to think and to go search the Scriptures. Which is always a good thing! Here is what I have found in my study of the New Testament Greek word translated "worship." I'm going to quote from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.. and then I'll comment.

"1. proskuneo. 'To make obeisance, do reverence to,' is the most frequent word rendered 'to worship.' It is used of an act of homage or reverence to (a) God, e.g., Matt. 4:10; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor. 14:25; Rev. 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16; 19:10 (2nd part) and 22:9 (b) to Christ, e.g., Matt. 2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9, 17; John 9:38;..... The worship of God is nowhere defined in Scripture. A consideration of the above verbs shows that it is not confined to praise; broadly it may be regarded as the direct acknowledgment to God, of His nature, attributes ways and claims, whether by the outgoing of the heart in praise and thanksgiving or by deed done in such acknowledgment." (page 686 in my edition)

So, the same Greek word that is translated "worship" is used for both God the Father and Jesus. I find that interesting. The Greek language is MUCH richer in vocabulary than English is. So if Matthew and John (sticking to the above references) wanted to make a distinction between "worship" of the Father and the Son, it would have been very easy. (I realize I'm getting into that I believe in the Trinity here, but please bear with me).
For the sake of argument, let's say that Jesus really wasn't accepting worship, but only obeisance or reverence. In Revelation 22:8-9, John says, "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, 'Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.'"... It's the same Greek word. So regardless if it is translated worship or obeisance angels refuse to accept it. It belongs to God only. Yet it was given to Jesus and He accepted it. He didn't tell people to stop like the angel did.
This probably won't convince you, and I'm not trying to. However, it seems clear to me that Jesus was acknowledged in ways that belong to God and God alone. And I 100% believe that is because He is God.

P.S. It doesn't really matter, but I use the NASB, not the KJV.

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What we worship is unclear to us because we cannot KNOW that actuality of God in His Essence. We can only know what is revealed to us through those perfect Mirrors of the Glory of God, Those chosen manifestations of God. What we can know of God is what we can know of the Divine Messenger since God is beyond our knowledge.

"Consequently, with reference to this plane of existence, every statement and elucidation is defective, all praise and all description are unworthy, every conception is vain, and every meditation is futile. But for this Essence of the essences, this Truth of truths, this Mystery of mysteries, there are reflections, auroras, appearances and resplendencies in the world of existence. The dawning-place of these splendors, the place of these reflections, and the appearance of these manifestations are the Holy Dawning-places, the Universal Realities and the Divine Beings, Who are the true mirrors of the sanctified Essence of God. All the perfections, the bounties, the splendors which come from God are visible and evident in the Reality of the Holy Manifestations, like the sun which is resplendent in a clear polished mirror with all its perfections and bounties. 148 If it be said that the mirrors are the manifestations of the sun and the dawning-places of the rising star, this does not mean that the sun has descended from the height of its sanctity and become incorporated in the mirror, nor that the Unlimited Reality is limited to this place of appearance. God forbid! This is the belief of the adherents of anthropomorphism. No; all the praises, the descriptions and exaltations refer to the Holy Manifestations -- that is to say, all the descriptions, the qualities, the names and the attributes which we mention return to the Divine Manifestations; but as no one has attained to the reality of the Essence of Divinity, so no one is able to describe, explain, praise or glorify it. Therefore, all that the human reality knows, discovers and understands of the names, the attributes and the perfections of God refer to these Holy Manifestations. There is no access to anything else: "the way is closed, and seeking is forbidden."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 147)


Just because people were confused enough to worship a man, does not mean they were WRONG; it means their ability to understand is limited. My ability to understand and any other mortal man (woman)'s ability to understand is imperfect.

Even the understanding of Those exalted Messengers is imperfect. Baha`u'llah describes it this way, I think Jesus or Moses, or Muhammad may well have used the same words but we do not have those words recorded for us:
"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth
me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things "verily
I am God"; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it
coarser than clay!"
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 234)

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

What we can know of God is what we can know of the Divine Messenger since God is beyond our knowledge.

There is no access to anything else: "the way is closed, and seeking is forbidden."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 147)


Regards,
Scott

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I respectfully disagree with your post. Are you surprised?
I agree that God is beyond our FULL knowledge. He is God after all. So I'll be spending all of eternity learning about Him. However, I disagree that we can only know of Him and not know Him personally, and that "the way is closed, and seeking is forbidden." That's why He took on flesh. So that the way would be open, and that when I seek Him, I find Him.

"I love those who love me;
And those who diligently seek me will find me. Prov. 8:17

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jer. 29:13

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

slabbey06 said:

I respectfully disagree with your post. Are you surprised?
I agree that God is beyond our FULL knowledge. He is God after all. So I'll be spending all of eternity learning about Him. However, I disagree that we can only know of Him and not know Him personally, and that "the way is closed, and seeking is forbidden." That's why He took on flesh. So that the way would be open, and that when I seek Him, I find Him.

"I love those who love me;
And those who diligently seek me will find me. Prov. 8:17

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jer. 29:13

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

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O Servant! Love Me that I may love Thee, for if thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach Thee. know this, O Servant."
Arabic Hidden Words.

"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee, the Help-in-Peril, the Self-Subsisting."
short Daily Obligatory Prayer

I agree, we can never come to KNOW God in His Essence--the way is blocked. God is the Creator and I am the created, therefore God is unknowable in His Essence--we are not of the same substance.

Jesus was a man, born of woman, therefore He was not God. He was as close to God as I can comprehend and still not God.

Regards,
Scott