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Jesus Is NOT GOD (my rant)

It's time for enlightening moments with FC. I quote 1 John 5:7, which says "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." The bible makes it clear buddy.
 

love

tri-polar optimist
Granted, genocide is not pretty, and is condemned by all religions that I know of. But know that in Islam, Shirk is the "seed" from which all other vices grow out of. It cannot happen that a people who truly believe that God is One, and as such is the Lord of the World and ascribe to Him everything else that is a sign of his unity, would ever condone genocide. Thus, genocide can be seen as an offshoot of shirk, albeit one that is more subtle then someone who outrightly pronounces that he believes in a being who is comparable to God Almighty. Hope this clears it up.

Actions "shirk" louder than words.
 

goraya15

Member
Actually, this is the expression of the Love of God in Jesus. That God is not the God 'out there,' far removed from human life and death, but the God 'right here,' God with us, touching us and sharing in our suffering.

Hard to believe, sure.

But what an amazing Grace.

I see what you are getting at. Leaving the topic of Jesus being the literal son of God aside, don't you think that God knows of the suffering of mankind? It is said in Islam that Allah does not burden a soul beyond it's capacity, and once the Holy Prophet is reported to have said that Allah is closer to you then your jugular vein.
Knowing both these things, it is impossible for me to accept that God would have to come down himself, from the seat of his power, and assume the shape of a lowly human, living the unclean life of that any human does, just to show humanity that he feels for them and knows their pain.

Islam encourages us to look to the work of Allah to understand his Word (the Qur'an). Doing this, you see that God truly knows the suffering of not only humans, but also of other animals as well. He has provided us with built-in pain killers in the form of endorphins and other hormones when the pain builds up, and has provided us the bliss of "shutting down" (aka, being knocked out cold), when the pain and suffering truly becomes too much to bear. And these just describe the immediate physical gifts of Allah to deal with pain. Emotionally, he has provided us with family, friends, and the biggest gift of all: prayer, through which we can submit ourselves wholly to Allah and ask for him to remove the bitter cup of suffering from our lips. He has also provided us with scriptures and prophets, which open up even more doors for healing. Knowing all this, and seeing all that God has given us to deal with pain and suffering, to me it seems like the height of ignorance that God, thinking that mankind still cannot handle the pain of life, would leave his throne as Lord of the Universe and assume the shape of a human, instead of just easing the pain immediately with his divine power.

Whhew...:D
 

goraya15

Member
It's time for enlightening moments with FC. I quote 1 John 5:7, which says "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." The bible makes it clear buddy.

I guess this is where I could say that the bible has been changed a lot over the centuries, so much so that the original text in aramaic has been lost to time, and that this is one of those verses that must have been changed to to accomodate the teaching of the trinity. BUT... since i have no direct proof of the changing of this specific verse since I have not as yet researched it, all I have is conjecture.

On the other hand, back to my other argument. This verse seems to be in direct contradiction to many other verses of the bible if you take all the verses of the bible to be literal. For example, these verses show that God is One, and doesn't say anything about the trinity. And besides, for such a confusing topic as the trinity, the bible does little to alleviate the apparent paradox born of the trinity. Kind of sends some alarm bells ringing, doesn't it?

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear 0 Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord. DEUTERONOMY 6:4 [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thou, even thou, are Lord alone. NEHEMIAH 9:6 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I, even I, am the Lord and besides me there is no saviour. ISAIAH 43.11 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. ISAIAH 43.10 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am the first and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. ISAIAH 44.6 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is none else. ISAIAH 45.5 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And there is no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none else besides me. Look upon me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: For I am God, and there is none else. ISAIAH 45.21/22 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Remember the former things of the old: for I am God and there is none else: I am God, and there is none else like me. ISAIAH 46.9 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord, he is God in heavens above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. DEUTERONOMY 4.39 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God: I know not any. ISAIAH 44:8 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first of all the commandements is, Hear, 0 Israel; the Lord our Cod is one Lord. MARK 12.29 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Well, master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God: and there is none other but he. MARK 12.32 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why callest thou me good? There is none good, save one, that is God. LUKE: 18:19 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. MATTHEW 4:10 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Seeing it is one God which shall justify the circumcision by faith and uncircumcision through faith. ROMANS 3:30 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is but one God, the Father of whom are all things. I CORINTHIANS 8:6 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other god but One. 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. JOAN 17.3 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now unto the king eternal, immortal, invisible and only wise God be honour and glory for ever and ever. 1 TIMOTHY 1.17 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man CHRIST Jesus. 1 TIMOTHY 2.5 [/FONT]
 

goraya15

Member
Further in John it says so.


John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son...

That is what I mean by begotten...

Hmm...well, you didn't really answer me, you just gave me a quote and a barely concealed sarcastic remark:rolleyes:. Anyways, what I meant was if you say begotten in the sense that Jesus was his LITERAL son, we're back to square one, actually, back to my first post.

Please explain to me why God would feel that he had to "beget" a son. In nature, the action of God, we find that the primary reason that animals, human's included, have children is so the species survives. A purely biological reason, it is imprinted into us to procreate. Sure, kids give us happiness as well.
Now tell me, would God need to be worried about keeping his "species" alive? Do you think he needed a child to make himself happy (god forbid). I'm sorry, but I prefer to think that God is far above the primal and simple urges of man to have children for the survival of the species and the happiness of parenthood.
 

Harvster

Member
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is but one God, the Father of whom are all things. I CORINTHIANS 8:6 [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other god but One. 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4 [/FONT]
By quoting these scriptures you have in a sense just contradicted yourself. Throughout the OP (and in other posts) you have tried to prove that Paul created the trinity, yet have posted verses in which Paul wrote saying otherwise.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Perhaps he was only trying to make the religion easier to understand for pagans who understood nothing else except polytheism.
Christianity is not polytheistic.

I guess this is where I could say that the bible has been changed a lot over the centuries, so much so that the original text in aramaic has been lost to time, and that this is one of those verses that must have been changed to to accomodate the teaching of the trinity. BUT... since i have no direct proof of the changing of this specific verse since I have not as yet researched it, all I have is conjecture
I will help you out... those words didn't appear until at the earliest the 11th century(and then written in the margin, not the author's hand)

Hmm...well, you didn't really answer me, you just gave me a quote and a barely concealed sarcastic remark
It would have to be more than barely, as I didn't intend it as sarcastic at all... sorry.

Anyways, what I meant was if you say begotten in the sense that Jesus was his LITERAL son, we're back to square one, actually, back to my first post.
What is square one? In the Bible there is only one literal begotten Son, Jesus the Christ.

Please explain to me why God would feel that he had to "beget" a son.
I don't believe God ever felt He "had" to beget, as Jesus is Eternal. As long as there was the Father, there was Jesus. Triunity is God's nature... He exists and has always existed thus.
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
fascist crusader...From the KJV. 1John 5:7;
"8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

I don't know where you found your interpretation to that passage saying that it is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but it must be some sort of gross textual manipulation?:help:
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
The messiah the Jews were expecting didn't have to be God anyway. Merely a king sent by God and of the Davidic line. Jesus could have been a mortal man and still have fulfilled all the Jewish prophecies, but He didn't even do that right.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
So it is in no way an accurate interpretation, right?
Not even a bad interpretation, sometime between 1100 and sometime in the 1400's someone added the text he quoted and made the chapter a verse longer...
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
Hey now...It depends on how you look at the Old Testament prophecies. If you get caught up in the conquering King Messiah that will physically rule Israel with might and power, then you have missed the Messiah that conquered men's hearts with a new understanding and fresh insight into the Laws of Moses. If you take everything literally, then no, Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies concerning the coming Messiah. But if you look at things spiritually, then you will see the Messiah that did indeed come to infuse the world with a new spirituality and did indeed conquer more than any King could ever imagine.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
Hey now...It depends on how you look at the Old Testament prophecies. If you get caught up in the conquering King Messiah that will physically rule Israel with might and power, then you have missed the Messiah that conquered men's hearts with a new understanding and fresh insight into the Laws of Moses. If you take everything literally, then no, Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies concerning the coming Messiah. But if you look at things spiritually, then you will see the Messiah that did indeed come to infuse the world with a new spirituality and did indeed conquer more than any King could ever imagine.

He was a teacher and nothing more. There were others like him, but he was proclaimed to be God and had his life works exaggerated. The only reason Christianity is around at all is because Paul and others were great salesmen. Imagine how much easier it is to convert Gentiles to Judaism when you suddenly don't have to be circumcised and adhere to dietary regulations.
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
I agree with you to a certain extent. There were certainly others like Him and there will remain to be great Teachers of Divine Truth to follow. Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, promised to the Jewish people by God. He was the Great Teacher that freed the Law of Moses from the hands of the wicked and unrighteous and taught that the Law must be written on one's heart and can be summarised by one word: Love. Love of God and Love of your neighbor as yourself.

Since then, there have been other Great Teachers that have helped lead mankind to unity and truth. Among them are Muhammed, the Bab and Bahaullah. To say that Jesus was not the first is the truth as Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, and Krishna all came before Jesus and taught truth as well.
 

Vassal

Member
Where on earth did you pick up this little gem? Paul no more created the concept of the Trinity than I did. There is not one shred of evidence that he even believed such a thing.

I agree, but you should know that not all Christians believe in the Trinity.

Yes, all Christians do believe in the Trinity. If you don’t then you can’t truthfully call yourself a Christian.

The Bible emphatically states that there is only one God and there will always be just one God, so either Jesus and the Father are the same God, or one of them is not God at all. The Father is obviously God because he is the one in heaven, so I assuming there’s no debate over that. If Jesus is not God then there is no forgiveness of sins because it is God, only God, who is coming to save his people. And if God has not yet come to save his people than Christianity is totally false in every important aspect.
Isaiah 43:11 (NASB) "I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no savior besides Me.

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB) Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

Isaiah 45:21 (NASB) "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.

Isaiah 53:5 (NASB) But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Zechariah 12:10 (NASB) "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Yes, it is true that the Trinity cannot be fully explained. How can God be a single God, but at the same time also be a Father, Son, and Spirit? But if you deny it to be true merely because you can’t understand it then we must also deny the very existence of God, and even the physical universe. How can God create something out of nothing? How can God have always existed? Why is there anything in existence at all? “Logically” speaking, nothing should exist anywhere, not even God, because, from what we understand, it isn’t possible for something to be created out of nothing. Obviously this line of thinking is flawed because we do exist. Something, whether it be inside or outside the physical universe, came into existence without a cause.
John 1:3 (NASB) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Romans 4:17 (NASB) (as it is written, "A father of many nations have I made you") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
The Bible clearly says the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is only one true God in existence, which is what the Trinity states. There is no way to say this is false without tearing apart the foundation of Christianity, so you can’t be a Christian without believing in the Trinity.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
If Jesus is not God then there is no forgiveness of sins because it is God, only God, who is coming to save his people. And if God has not yet come to save his people than Christianity is totally false in every important aspect.

As I said before, Judaism is the parent religion of Christianity. The Jewish messiah was never required to be God. Christians claim Jesus is the Jewish messiah, but he didn't fulfill the prophecies.

Yes, it is true that the Trinity cannot be fully explained. How can God be a single God, but at the same time also be a Father, Son, and Spirit? But if you deny it to be true merely because you can’t understand it then we must also deny the very existence of God, and even the physical universe. How can God create something out of nothing? How can God have always existed? Why is there anything in existence at all? “Logically” speaking, nothing should exist anywhere, not even God, because, from what we understand, it isn’t possible for something to be created out of nothing. Obviously this line of thinking is flawed because we do exist. Something, whether it be inside or outside the physical universe, came into existence without a cause.

There was no first cause. The universe has always existed. There is no need for a God to explain it at all.
 

may

Well-Known Member
1. The Bible clearly says that God is One.

Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord. (Deutronemy, 6).

I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me (Isaiah, chapter 45)

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel, the lord our God is one Lord.

From here we're going to have a bunch of people say that God and Jesus are one and the same, so there is no contradiction. In other words, they bring up the Trinity, or say that Jesus was God personified.

Well, God Almighty has called other prophets is son's before Jesus, and prophets before Jesus have also called God their Father. Does this mean that they are the literal son's of God? No! But here I find that most people will say that this language was used symbolically in their sense, but literally in the case of Jesus, even though there is no precedent.

I have found David my servant, with my holy oil have I anointed him. With whom my hand shall be established, mine arm also shall strengthen him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him...He shall cry unto me, Though art my Father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also, I will make him my first born, higher than the kings of the earth. (psalms 89, 20-27)

Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest, and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about, for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. He shall build an house for my name, and he shall be my son, and I will be his Father, and I will establish the throne of his kindgdom over Israel forever. (Chronicles 22, 9-10)

To further support this, the bible also clears up any misunderstandings by saying that not only is Jesus not the son of God in the literal sense, He is the Son of Man.

The son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say... (Matthew 11)

The book of generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham (Matthew 1, 1) (Is this to be taken in the literal sense of the word of well is you believe Jesus to be the son of man and god simultaneously?)

People also say that Jesus was god (god forbid) because he performed many miracles, classifying him as a deity and not a human being.

The bible also speaks of Elijah performing many miracles, such as in Kings 17, where he ate from a barrel for many days that would have otherwise should have gone empty. It further says that Elijah healed a sick boy, practically "raising the dead". Should this not constitute Elijah as God as well?

To further this, even regular people can show miracles according to the bible, miracles as great as even Jesus showed. Would this make them God as well?

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief, for verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove, and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
(Matthew 17).

If this isn't even enough, according to the bible, even false prophets and show miracles. Noone would go around to deify false prophets, would they?

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew, 24)

Now, if you take every word of the bible as literal, then you will have to admit that God not only had one son, but he had several sons, and that Jesus was both god, son of God and son of man altogether. Here is where the Trinity comes into play. Apparently, St. Paul, creator of the Trinity, couldn't reconcile all the different names of Jesus, and invented the trinity to account for them all. The trinity itself is one of the most confusing and paradoxical things about christianity, and takes a certain knack of double-think (1984, for those who didn't catch that) to be able to entertain the thought.

I do not wish to hurt anybody's feelings or offend anybody's beliefs, believe me, please. I just wish to help people back to the truth, and as the Quran says, there is nothing worse then Shirk, or associating someone with Allah.
the bible does not teach the TRINITY many have been misled to believe this manmade doctine . the bible teaches that JEHOVAH is the most high PSALM 83;18 .And Jesus is his first -born son , Jesus is Gods son, Jesus is not God . stick to the bible only and we cant go wrong . many have been misled by False religious teachings. the bible does not teach the trinity.
 

goraya15

Member
By quoting these scriptures you have in a sense just contradicted yourself. Throughout the OP (and in other posts) you have tried to prove that Paul created the trinity, yet have posted verses in which Paul wrote saying otherwise.

Yes, and if you read my other posts, you would also read that I said that Paul himself, in my opinion, did not preach the trinity in the form it is today. Rather, while preaching to pagans, who were polytheistic, he altered his teaching to essentially make it easier for pagans to accept by introducing the concept that God has many forms...probly along the lines of he is both Father and God. As Christianity progressed, the trinity became more defined and Jesus became deified.

In other words, Paul allowed the first step of the introduction of the trinity into an otherwise totally monotheistic teaching.
 
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