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Orthodoxy and "Missing Cogs" :)
- Thread starter No*s
- Start date
Deuteronomy 32:8
Precisely the reason they reject Christianity. 
oracle
Active Member
OK, heres one example. I have learned that "Elohim", correctly translated [as I have been doing some research on it], would mean something close to "all there is", basically everything that exists. Since the -im suffix in it's earlier stage of development, meant "great expanse". Elohim was not originally a masculine plural but that notion came later, but there is no plural needed when it is corresponding to everything, that is without excluding anything. This is a tradional, old, Jewish teaching: God is infinite, everywhere, and everything. Now lets consider the words "I Am the I Am". Ahieh Asher Ahieh translated by letter would mean: Aleph alive, Yod alive, and is simply stating the fact that everything that is in existance is alive and living and all of God. Moving on, you have in the new testament where God says, I am the "Alpha and the Omega". If translated in aramiac, that would be "I am the Aleph and the Tav". Aleph means "leader, ox, first", but the nature of Aleph as I have been reading basically would come close to meaning "infinity". Now Tav would mean something like "mark, cross, sign, signpost", but that is very broad in it's meaning. From what I understand, it would mean something close to the cosmic universe. Translated by letter, Aleph and Tav would mean something like "all there is", it's a totalizing equation. The greek Alpha and Omega [the omega was a replacement of the greek letter "Tau", a variation of "Tav"], In an english sense it's like saying A-Z, and yet the meaning is still in reference to the totality of God. I would assume that God is saying that He is everything that exists.
Now, this is something not very well explained and taught much in Christianity today, and yet it's clear that the apostles knew it and would have been brought up knowing it since it's an old traditional Jewish teaching. I think that is of huge importance to understand that God is everywhere, and everything that exists. I would assume that means we are all parts and pieces of God, like the cells of a infinite cosmic organism. Yet, most christian's exclude any jewish teachings. Why? Jesus was jewish. Why do we have the old testament then? Where did the divine presence in matter come from? I talked to a Christian friend about it, and he was like, "that's New Age". :banghead3
Now, this is something not very well explained and taught much in Christianity today, and yet it's clear that the apostles knew it and would have been brought up knowing it since it's an old traditional Jewish teaching. I think that is of huge importance to understand that God is everywhere, and everything that exists. I would assume that means we are all parts and pieces of God, like the cells of a infinite cosmic organism. Yet, most christian's exclude any jewish teachings. Why? Jesus was jewish. Why do we have the old testament then? Where did the divine presence in matter come from? I talked to a Christian friend about it, and he was like, "that's New Age". :banghead3
No*s
Captain Obvious
oracle said:
I don't have any way to talk about what Hebrew says directly, but I've heard elohim defined as "mighty ones," and well, it is used for angels and men. That makes little sense in the context of your definition. This sort of treatment is further confirmed by the LXX, which treats elohim as "God" but also as "angel." The LXX was translated (the Pentateuch, at least) by 70 Jews in Palestine. I would daresay they had access to a lot more ancient Hebrew mss. than we
.I can't speak on the "alpha...omega" thing except to say that in the context it seems to indicate "I am the beginning and the end." That seems to function just fine in the context. Why do we need to extrapolate back into Aramaic, especially when both of our knowledge is limited (and on me, that's being generous) given its sufficiency in the immediate context?
oracle said:
Well, all Christianity assumes the definition of God that He is infinite, without constraint, and thus, may be everywhere. However, no, we don't view ourselves as "cells of an infinite organism." That's a whole different kettle of fish, because we do consider God "wholly other," and thus we can't be cells in an organism.
oracle
Active Member
No*s said:I don't have any way to talk about what Hebrew says directly, but I've heard elohim defined as "mighty ones," and well, it is used for angels and men. That makes little sense in the context of your definition. This sort of treatment is further confirmed by the LXX, which treats elohim as "God" but also as "angel." The LXX was translated (the Pentateuch, at least) by 70 Jews in Palestine. I would daresay they had access to a lot more ancient Hebrew mss. than we
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No*s said:
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]
[/font]The "Omega" is the replacement of Tau, a variant of Tav which meant cross. The Greeks used the Phoenician alphabet to develop their own, and so there is a relation between greek and hebrew. Supposing that the apostles spoke aramaic, Aleph and Tav would be translated as Alpha and Tau in greek.
Well I don't agree with this, I have constulted an expert in the matter,No*s said:
I used the whole cells of an infinite organism as a metaphor and obviously you don't understand the meaning. The belief that God is everywhere and everything is an old jewish tradition, it's sad that christian's disregard any of that sort since Christianity has Hebraic roots.
No*s
Captain Obvious
oracle said:
Who is the expert? I'm not an expert in Hebrew, nor even well-versed, but I do have Kittel's A Biblical Hebrew: A Text and Workbook[/i}, which I've been delaying getting involved in. I would dare say its author is an expert. It treats the -im suffix as a masculine plural.
oracle said:
If I misunderstood your idea, could you elaborate on it more rather than chastising me for my lack of understanding? I don't think that I've demonstrated an unwillingness to hear and correctly understand another's ideas.
oracle
Active Member
This is what the guy told me.No*s said:
"Elo-him is not a plural. The "-im" suffix only came to designate the masculine plural at a later point of development. This suffix actually means "great expanse". So, the proper translation of Elo-him would be something like "All There Is". No plural. "All" doesn't need one."
The whole concept is about wholeness, that God is everything and everywhere, that we are a part of God just as much as He is a part of us.No*s said:
No*s
Captain Obvious
oracle said:
That much I gathered, but who told you this? My OT professor in the university certainly disagreed with it, and when we had a biblical scroll on display, she was able to tell me where it was turned to, etc...despite the fact that it was unpointed and there weren't any clues on the scroll. I ask this because what you say disagrees with what I have received on the matter, and I frankly, don't know Hebrew, though it is on my to-learn list.
oracle said:
Then I did understand you correctly. That is pantheism, and it isn't Hebrew. God is separate from the creation in both Judaism and Christianity, but He is everywhere. So, if I were to edit your phrase to say "The whole concept is about wholeness, that God is everywhere," then we would have something both Christian and Hebrew. I can't find this thought, though, anywhere in a Christian or ancient Jewish text.
oracle
Active Member
This is from what the guy wrote to me:
John 14: 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works.
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. 19 "In a little while the world will see Me no longer, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live too. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, you are in Me, and I am in you.
The Whole Elohim is a concept of wholeness "all that is" without excluding anything. It's not talking about angels, or anything else for that matter. God, Elohim, means "everything that is", to think otherwise excludes us from that wholeness and makes us seperate from God. I believe that Jesus knew that and was trying to show everyone that and was trying to re-establish that connection we have with God.
John 14: 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works.
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. 19 "In a little while the world will see Me no longer, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live too. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, you are in Me, and I am in you.
If He is seperate from the creation than how can He be everywhere? You are excluding the creation. Not only that, but this statement excludes divine presence in matter. This is inconsistency. If He is everywhere that includes everything that exists. If He is not apart of the creation, then how can there be divine presence in matter?
oracle
Active Member
Gospel of the holy twelve:
1. JESUS came to a certain fountain near Bethany, around which grew twelve palm trees, where he often went with his disciples to teach them of the mysteries of the kingdom, and there he sat beneath the shade of the trees and his disciples with him.
2. And one of them said, Master, it is written of old, The Alohim made man in Their own image, male and female created They them. How sayest thou then that God is one? And Jesus said unto them, Verily, I said unto you, In God there is neither male nor female and yet both are one, and God is the Two in One. He is She and She is He. The Alohimour Godis perfect, Infinite, and One.
3. As in the man, the Father is manifest, and the Mother hidden; so in the woman, the Mother is manifest, and the Father hidden. Therefore shall the name of the Father and the Mother be equally hallowed, for They are the great Powers of God, and the one is not without the other, in the One God.
4. Adore ye God, above you, beneath you, on the right hand, on the left hand before you, behind you, within you, around you. Verily, there is but One God, Who is All in All, and in Whom all things do consist, the Fount of all Life and all Substance, without beginning and without end.
5. The things which are seen and pass away are The manifestations of the unseen which are eternal, that from the visible things of Nature ye may reach to the invisible things of the Godhead; and by that which is natural, attain to that which is spiritual.
6. Verily, the Alohim created man in the divine image male and female, and all nature is in the Image of God, therefore is God both male and female, not divided, but the Two in One, Undivided and Eternal, by Whom and in Whom are all things, visible and invisible.
7. From the Eternal they flow, to the Eternal they return. The spirit to Spirit, soul to Soul, mind to Mind, sense to Sense, life to Life, form to Form, dust to Dust.
8. In the beginning God willed and there came forth the beloved Son, the divine Love, and the beloved Daughter, the holy Wisdom, equally proceeding from the One Eternal Fount; and of these are the generations of the Spirits of God, the Sons and Daughters of the Eternal.
9. And These descend to earth, and dwell with men and teach them the ways of God, to love the laws of the Eternal, and obey them, that in them they may find salvation.
10. Many nations have seen their day. Under divers names have they been revealed to them, and they have rejoiced in their light; and even now they come again unto you, but Israel receiveth them not.
11. Verily I say unto you, my twelve whom I have chosen, that which hath been taught by them of old time is truethough corrupted by the foolish imaginations of men.
12. Again, Jesus spake unto Mary Magdalene saying, It is written in the law, Whoso leaveth father or mother, let him die the death. Now the law speaketh not of the parents in this life, but of the Indweller of light which is in us unto this day.
13. Whoso therefore forsaketh Christ the Saviour, the Holy law, and the body of the Elect, let them die the death. Yea, let them be lost in the outer darkness, for so they willed and none can hinder.
1. JESUS came to a certain fountain near Bethany, around which grew twelve palm trees, where he often went with his disciples to teach them of the mysteries of the kingdom, and there he sat beneath the shade of the trees and his disciples with him.
2. And one of them said, Master, it is written of old, The Alohim made man in Their own image, male and female created They them. How sayest thou then that God is one? And Jesus said unto them, Verily, I said unto you, In God there is neither male nor female and yet both are one, and God is the Two in One. He is She and She is He. The Alohimour Godis perfect, Infinite, and One.
3. As in the man, the Father is manifest, and the Mother hidden; so in the woman, the Mother is manifest, and the Father hidden. Therefore shall the name of the Father and the Mother be equally hallowed, for They are the great Powers of God, and the one is not without the other, in the One God.
4. Adore ye God, above you, beneath you, on the right hand, on the left hand before you, behind you, within you, around you. Verily, there is but One God, Who is All in All, and in Whom all things do consist, the Fount of all Life and all Substance, without beginning and without end.
5. The things which are seen and pass away are The manifestations of the unseen which are eternal, that from the visible things of Nature ye may reach to the invisible things of the Godhead; and by that which is natural, attain to that which is spiritual.
6. Verily, the Alohim created man in the divine image male and female, and all nature is in the Image of God, therefore is God both male and female, not divided, but the Two in One, Undivided and Eternal, by Whom and in Whom are all things, visible and invisible.
7. From the Eternal they flow, to the Eternal they return. The spirit to Spirit, soul to Soul, mind to Mind, sense to Sense, life to Life, form to Form, dust to Dust.
8. In the beginning God willed and there came forth the beloved Son, the divine Love, and the beloved Daughter, the holy Wisdom, equally proceeding from the One Eternal Fount; and of these are the generations of the Spirits of God, the Sons and Daughters of the Eternal.
9. And These descend to earth, and dwell with men and teach them the ways of God, to love the laws of the Eternal, and obey them, that in them they may find salvation.
10. Many nations have seen their day. Under divers names have they been revealed to them, and they have rejoiced in their light; and even now they come again unto you, but Israel receiveth them not.
11. Verily I say unto you, my twelve whom I have chosen, that which hath been taught by them of old time is truethough corrupted by the foolish imaginations of men.
12. Again, Jesus spake unto Mary Magdalene saying, It is written in the law, Whoso leaveth father or mother, let him die the death. Now the law speaketh not of the parents in this life, but of the Indweller of light which is in us unto this day.
13. Whoso therefore forsaketh Christ the Saviour, the Holy law, and the body of the Elect, let them die the death. Yea, let them be lost in the outer darkness, for so they willed and none can hinder.