Cleansing Herod's Temple

jewscout said:

Or so we're told by people who picked and chose from over a dozen "gospels" centuries after the crucifiction.

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Well, I apologize for my ignorance in using these "gospels" as my only source of information. I have to admit I don't do much outside reading. I will try to be more careful and do some more research.

DirtyHarry said:

I disagree, I think that it is obvious that the Jewish leaders of the day manipulated Jewish and Roman law systems to have Jesus specifically crucified. Technically, yes, Romans nailed him to a cross, but only becuase the Jews would have it no other way.

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The Jews would have stoned Him to death, but this would have broken the Roman law and none of the Jews wanted His blood directly on their hands. Pilate told them to do it themselves and they didn't want to. The Bible says the prophecy of his crucifixion had to be fulfilled, and the Romans were the only ones who could do it. The Jews fulfilled prophecy unknowingly. Had they been doing it on purpose there would have been many more people saying, "Hey man, maybe this is more than just a coincedence that He's fulfilling all these prophecies." The Jews had no reason to desire a crucifixion specifically, as well.

Chuck -- If you were to walk into a Mall, museum or any large public institution today and start wreaking havoc, you'd at the least expect to be forcibly ejected. The jews might not have taken him out and crucified him, but no "sensible Jew" would have stood idly by as some violent nutter rampaged through his temple and place of business.

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Interesting question. An author asks himself the same question:

"Why did not this multitude of ignorant pilgrims resist? Why did these greedy chafferers content themselves with dark scowls and muttered maledictions, while they suffered their oxen and sheep to be chased into the streets and themselves ejected, and their money flung rolling on the floor, by one who was then young and unknown, and in the garb of despised Galilee? Necause sin is weakness; because there is in the world nothing so abject as a guilty conscience, nothing so invincible as the sweeping tide of a godlike indignation against all that is base and wrong. How could those paltry sacreligious buyers and sellers, conscious of wrongdoing, oppose that scathing rebuke, or face the lightning of those eyes that were enkindled by an outraged holiness? Because vice cannot stand for one minute before virtue's uplifted arm. Base and groveling as they were, these money-mongering Jews felt, in all that remnant of their souls which was not yet eaten away by infidelity and avarice, that the Son of Man was right"

-James Talmage, "Jesus The Christ"

The leaders who were too far gone to see that He was right feared an uprising brought on by His arrest. They wanted to do it quietly. This was not going to be the day, so they let Him go.

Nothing was going to happen to Jesus until HE allowed it!

With God, all things are possible.

It's hard to accept the supernatural, but that is no proof against it.

Moses ground the golden calf, burned it, mixed it into water and FORCED the Isrealites to drink the mess. God doesn't mess around. BTW, Moses is cited as being the MEEKEST man who ever lived. Now that changes my idea of meek!

Net Doc said:

With God, all things are possible.

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What's your point? I could write a story about how God wrote me messages in my Fruit Loops, but that doesn't mean it happened, even if "with God, all things are possible."

Would the apologists concede that this narrative was at least possibly fictional?

By defering to this point of view of discussion you can best say in this sort of deterministic VAIN it is the Roman Empires fault that the Jews are suffering till the end of Time in the World, not their own. Sharon the pig wants that Jews be responsible for all their own acts as well as the right to exist as a Nation.

Ooooh, I hate the word "apologist"! It sounds so mealy mouthed!

Spinkles, now why should I concede that it was "possibly fictional"? Do we have an eyewitness that contradicts this testimony?

The REAL problem is that you are trying to "disprove" a supernatural being using natural criteria. That dog just won't hunt! You are trying to limit God to human frailness. No, it's not terribly convenient for non-believers when God chooses to not act in a human fashion.

As for your fruitloops... everyone knows that God only speaks through Alphabits. Get real man!

NetDoc said:

The REAL problem is that you are trying to "disprove" a supernatural being using natural criteria. That dog just won't hunt!

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Well said.

Net Doc said:

Spinkles, now why should I concede that it was "possibly fictional"? Do we have an eyewitness that contradicts this testimony?

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Do we have an eyewitness that contradicts my testimony of the Miracle of Spinkles' Fruit Loops? Deut already pointed out some inconsistencies between the story and what we know of the history of the temple.

Net Doc said:

The REAL problem is that you are trying to "disprove" a supernatural being using natural criteria.

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No, the real problem is that we have before us a collection of apparent myths and fabrications which most of us would never take seriously had we not been raised in a predominantly Christian culture. I can't "disprove" any story that invokes the supernatural (after all, with faries anything is possible ) and I certainly can't do it if a person presupposes the validity of the story.

Mr_Spinkles said:

What's your point? I could write a story about how God wrote me messages in my Fruit Loops, but that doesn't mean it happened, even if "with God, all things are possible."

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(Just for the record, God has written me a message in my Fruit Loops. The message, oddly enough, has always been 'OOoooooo.') (This quote brought to you by "The Family Guy.")

They are inconsistent ONLY if we are discussing a mere mortal. With God all things are possible!

Deut. 32.8 said:

It was a massive structure, perhaps roughly the size of 20 football fields laid out in a 5x4 grid. Such a structure would demand not only a significant Priesthood, but a complex Jewish and Roman infrastructure. There would be people to service the many thousands of faithful, and people to maintain the area. This was a period of rebelliousness and constant tensions between Rome and the Jews. One can be sure that both the Roman regime and the Priesthood would have committed the forces necessary to maintain order and protect "Herod's" Temple and this single most important location in Judaism.


Meanwhile, I suspect that had anyone actually caused such an uproar, he/they would have been dealt with immediately and forcibly.

(*) The author of gMt apparently felt the need to explain this act of figicide. He positions it after the Temple incident rather than before, and then embellishes it with dialogue. Luke transforms the whole thing into a parable and presents it some 5 chapters before the Temple story.

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You will find your answer in the experience of those who came to arrest Jesus just before crucifyimg him. They "fell backwards" just by His speaking the words "I am He"....John 18:6. But yet, He allowed them to arrest Him and scouirge him. He submitted willingly; while <b>they</b> forgot to thy ignored and forgot the power He confronted them with just moments before they arrested Him, the Creator of the Universe.

When He returns "they also which pierced Him" will be allowed to see with their very own eyes" the Creator whom they crucified....Revelation 1:7 but this time will be different....They will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.....2 Thessalonians 2:8

It was Jesus Himself who said to those who mocked and tortured Him that "Hereafter they shall see Him "sit on the Right Hand of the power of God." And despite His demonstration of divne power and divine origins; He still none-the-less allowed these His created mortals to crucify Him.

It was within the above contexts that those who experienced Him overturnig their corrupt means of merchandising in His Father's house; are like those who will experience Him on His return to earth the second time...and in His words....<b><u> "Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us" </b></u>....Luke 23:30. These are words he would repeat to His disciple, John some forty years later as He described what would happen to those who rejected Him on His return......<font color="red"> "and said to the mountains and rocks 'Fall on us', and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."</font color="red"> ...Revelation 6:16

<b><u> A warning all would do well to heed! </b></u>


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