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Sola scriptura

chuck010342

Active Member
fragmentsofdreams said:
Most obviously, one needs help to understand the language, either by learning Greek and Hebrew or using a translation. Then, one needs to learn more about the history and cultures of the ancient Near East to better understand what is going on. The assistance of other Christians is vital to being able to learn from their mistakes and avoid the problems that they ran into.

Quite right but truth is found in the scripture first everything else just helps us to understand what is already there. We as humans are not perfect nor do we have infinate knowledge but God does. We start with the scripture revealed by God as the truth but to better understand that proof we need translations and so forth but the ideas in scripture do not come from men but rather God.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
chuck010342 said:
God used the tradition to make the scripture hence the scipture comes from God not from the traditions of Men. How do we know that Men used the right traditions to form scripture?

The same way that you select the Bible: you believe. I believe Christ founded the Church. The Spirit would guide the Church in her choices. This is one of them. Someone who doesn't consider the Bible authoritative has the exact same questions about it that you have raised about Tradition. Simply removing Tradition from the equation doesn't eliminate the problem. So I think this is a false dilemma.

The presence of the Holy Spirit in the process doesn't lesson His approval of Tradition any. Just as you use the term "traditions of men" I may say that there are "godly traditions." Tradition isn't a bad word. In fact, it can be a very good word.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
chuck010342 said:
Quite right but truth is found in the scripture first everything else just helps us to understand what is already there. We as humans are not perfect nor do we have infinate knowledge but God does. We start with the scripture revealed by God as the truth but to better understand that proof we need translations and so forth but the ideas in scripture do not come from men but rather God.
Ideally, God would then guide the translators and the interpretors... But there are so many different translations and so many different interpretations that this simply does not make sense. Even if the scripture would be 'reavealed by God as the truth', how many different people do we have that are pointing to different versions of truth?
 

chuck010342

Active Member
No*s said:
The same way that you select the Bible: you believe. I believe Christ founded the Church. The Spirit would guide the Church in her choices. This is one of them. Someone who doesn't consider the Bible authoritative has the exact same questions about it that you have raised about Tradition. Simply removing Tradition from the equation doesn't eliminate the problem. So I think this is a false dilemma.

Your right I'm wrong.

No*s said:
The presence of the Holy Spirit in the process doesn't lesson His approval of Tradition any. Just as you use the term "traditions of men" I may say that there are "godly traditions." Tradition isn't a bad word. In fact, it can be a very good word.

I agree with you here but the heart of the issue is whether who has more authority is it God or men?
 

chuck010342

Active Member
FeathersinHair said:
Ideally, God would then guide the translators and the interpretors... But there are so many different translations and so many different interpretations that this simply does not make sense. Even if the scripture would be 'reavealed by God as the truth', how many different people do we have that are pointing to different versions of truth?

The beautiful feathersinhair makes her voice heard again how nice it is to talk to you agian.

all translations of the bible are basically the same because they have the same ideas in them. I see no reason for interpretations just let the words speak for themselves. I don't see different versions of the truth just one truth.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
chuck010342 said:
Your right I'm wrong.

Wow. That was concise. Thanks :).



chuck010342 said:
I agree with you here but the heart of the issue is whether who has more authority is it God or men?

God always has more authority. He has more authority than men, and if He contradicted the Bible (I don't believe He does), then He has more authority than it. I think the difference is, though, is that I actively believe the Spirit has guided the Church. It is because I believe the Spirit guided the Church that I can accept the Bible as well. As such, I believe Tradition is also inspired :).
 

zecritr

New Member
SOGFPP said:
Sola scriptura (Latin by Scripture alone) is one of five important slogans of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. It meant that Scripture is the Church's only infallible rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines. The intention of the Reformation was to correct the Catholic Church by appeal to the uniqueness of the Bible's authority, and to reject Christian tradition as a source of original authority alongside the Bible or in addition to the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

What are your thoughts on the validity of this doctrine?
only way to go,it just seems to me that most of "christianity" doesn't understand and thence practice sola scriptura in their studies.

His and Hers
zecritr
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
Sola Scriptura as Scott pointed out is between the Universal Church and the Protesting Churches.

The greater argument is they both turned away from the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and created an all new religion, far from anything resembling the Church of God.

The Universal Church and it's Pope and the Protestant Church and it's Paul. When you are lost, go back to the last known point, sit down and look at your instruction manual! When it reveals a landmark, head for it, you will have found the Way!
 

oracle

Active Member
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ". [/font]
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
zecritr said:
only way to go,it just seems to me that most of "christianity" doesn't understand and thence practice sola scriptura in their studies.

His and Hers
zecritr

That's because it's impossible.

1). It's not taught in Scipture.
2). You can't leave all your oustide assumptions behind.
3). Translations aren't perfect, and are more interpretation -- setting up a class of interpreters
4). We have to select which versions of the text we want. Is one version in conflict with our beliefs? No problem. There's a textual variant.

It's pretty safe to assume, then, that you don't either. Simply to follow it is to violate its tenet of only accepting doctrines proven by Scripture. These same Scriptures make assumptions that are no longer evident to us, so when we read them...we make different assumptions and see it differently. Of course, this is colored even further, because our interpreters translating the text have made assumptions for us *after* selecting which text variants represent the Scripture we should follow.

Thus...nobody practices Sola Scriptura.

EDIT:

I forgot the fifth reason.

5). The Scripture was determined by the Church. Thus, if you recognize the validity of Scripture, you recognize the validity of the Tradition that gives Scripture its authority. If you do that...you'll be running either to the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, or away from Christianity. To do otherwise is to undermine the authority of Scripture on some levels.
 

oracle

Active Member
zecritr said:
only way to go,it just seems to me that most of "christianity" doesn't understand and thence practice "sola scriptura" in their studies.
Ha, true to that. I believe that most denominations are far from Christianity, in its beginning and original form. I think that the "traditions of men" mean external workings, legalistic things that spritually have no meaning. For example the hierarchy within the church is a worldy and external thing, only in the intent that it seperates them from the rest of the congregation. No one is greater or lesser of a person in the kingdom of heaven, but the one who serves in humility has more integrity, is more consistent and true to themselves and God. Christ should be our teacher, the spirit of God that is within us. No man can come in between. Jesus said,[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.[/font]". We all need to experience God on personal levels. People show us the door, but they are not the door. Ultimately many people who attend church making it a meaningless routine, are dependant to hear truth and never walk through that door. Truth is within us, Jesus tried to show us that connection we can have with God. A person does not establish that connection for us but we must establish it ourselves.

Traditions such as communion are mystical, and people have made it a meaningless routine. Water is a symbolism of unity, of oneness, and wholeness. Pure water has very little form or structure. It is a symbol of the totality of existance, that there is no discrimination, no form or structure that divides between us. To be born of water is to be born of that unification. The spirit of God resided in all things, is everywhere and within everything, that makes us all unified. No material possessions, no social status, no religious dogma can divide in between. For the blood, the water, the spirit of God all testify this one truth, for they all represent the same thing. Through the blood of Christ, all mankind is unified as Christ died for all mankind, we are made whole: One body and one spirit. It is the selfish nature that conceals this truth. We are redeemed by this unification, and by this unification is the reconcilliation and forgiveness between the self and all things, that we may be at One with all things, that we may all become one body and one spirit.

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ".[/font]

Yet people argue and quibble over worthless things, philosophies, doctrines, legal dogma, traditions of men that have no meaning, forgetting about human lives and valuing their traditions above all things. They become self divided and their love for each other grows cold. Christians have become like the corinthians, who reveal their division rather than celebrate their unity, they do not recognize that we are all one body of Christ. Through Christ we have all been unified, for there is one loaf, One cup, and we take part in that wholeness, that oneness.
True communion is cebrated in spirit, not in flesh, not by external things. God looks inside the heart, and that is where true communion is celebrated, and it should constantly be celebrated in that manner. By quibbling over doctrines we are eating and drinking of that communion in an unworthy manner. If God is infinite, His love is infinite, and it surpasses all these finite things. The good news was a message of this infinite love that unifies us all. That is true spiritual knowledge.

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

When you make such things routine, when you make mystical and spiritual things a tradition, they become utterly meaningless and lose their value.
[/font] The water of baptism, the bread and wine of communion, they are of spiritual symbolism. Celebrating them physically mean nothing, but It is the spirit of God who baptizes, and it is through the spirit of God that we should all celebrate communion.
 

cardw

Member
If you want to get a good overview of this problem of sola scriptura Bart D Ehrman has a great book called, "Misquoting Jesus" where he goes over the difficulty of establishing an official translation.

The major difficulty is that we have a whole lot of early versions of the Bible in Greek that differ from each other. In fact there may be as many as 20 to 30 thousand differences in the texts. Many are minor, but there are a number that are quite significant.

There are so major hurdles to overcome before we can establish something that is in human language as exactly what God wanted to tell us.
 
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