There is another alternative: put you on "ignore". I no desire to debate with rude people.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Jesus is not God
- Thread starter andy
- Start date
There is another alternative: put you on "ignore". I no desire to debate with rude people.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Yes, of course you can do that, … I could do the same to you … no sweat!!
But what would that achieve: You continue in ignorance having heard the truth. I just keep spreading the truth irrespective of who listens… afterall, I’m not seeking glory for myself - just going my job!!! My payment will be decided by Jesus Christ in the second resurrection.
But… for time being - just answer the questions so as to show that YOU are being honest, truthful, reverent, and true, to the testimony of Jesus Christ - which GOD GAVE HIM to give to mankind!!!
If you cannot do this… just say so! There is no embarrassment in being ignorant if the truth. The issue is if you hear the truth and then consciously decide to REFUSE to accept it…
By all means check it out - it’s the right thing to do: Not all Spirits are sent by God!!!
Prove yourself NOW!! Don’t runaway because you feel the weight of your error: The truth is a life jacket in sea of lies and deceitfulness.
Last edited:
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Soapy tries too hard to make a point sometime, apparently leading him to lump the eating of sausage and ignorance into a mashup that, in his mind, "leads to public embarrassment later on".
So you say. What about the bible? What does it say??
God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)
So we learn from scripture God is Spirit, and we learn from Soapy that the Spirit is not a person, which of course would mean God is not a person either.
Your argument refutes itself Soapy. Why do you think Trinitarians need to add or respond to it when you're doing such a great job on your own?
If we take your argument that a Spirit is not a person to it's logical conclusion, we would see God is Spirit, a Spirit is not a person, and thus God is not a person because He is Spirit.
All that does is lead us down another rabbit hole, into another paradox or "Soapyism", born from your Adoptionist theology. I suspect most posters see no need to respond to posts that are so obviously self-refuting.
In mathematics, yes, but in actuality? No, it's not necessary. Two nickels equal a dime, but if the nickels are new, and the dime is very old, they need not be commutative at all. We can have equality under the law, and inequality in practice. Same crime, different time. Many other examples.
Another strawman! Where in Trinity theology does it say "only the 3rd person must not be grieved" ?
Nowhere!
We've been through this before: There are plenty of Trinity books on the market. Grab one, preferably written by a Trinitarian author, THEN come back to the debate forum and post your questions. Who knows? Maybe you'll find one we haven't already answered.
Until then, you're just asking us to shoot more fish in a barrel.
We all grieve the Father. We're sinners, remember?
Look, that would be a great question if Trinitarian theology stated Jesus went to the cross laughing and joking every time a guard placed a stake through his hand. We never taught that in the past, we don't teach that now, and as far as I know it's not on anyone's radar for the future. In fact, it's hard to fathom why you proffer such a question unless it's simply to construct another strawman.
At this point, given your penchant for spinning false Trinitarian arguments from whole cloth or empty air, and then presenting them on the forum as if they are some "fact" Trinitarians need to deny, and given that the vast majority of serious posters on this forum have the ability to differentiate between substantive and superfluous inquiry, I too may have no choice but to join the crowd and simply ignore your comments in the future.
Don't get the wrong idea. I think your arguments do a great job of advancing the Trinity and why, from a biblical and historical perspective, your arguments "just don't work". I just think you go too far when you advance arguments that were never Trinitarian to begin with, as no serious theologian is going to present Modalism or Tritheism as Trinitarian doctrine. That's like the student who confuses the Communist Manifesto with the Declaration of Independence.
Continuously asking why George Washington and the Continental Congress abolished the Right to Private Property and our Right to Inherit might be good for a few giggles in class, but after awhile answering the same question, over and over again simply because the student "doesn't get it" or claims there is some vast conspiracy by Americans to hide or change what the "Declaration of Independence really says" gets kind of boring.
Have a great week Soapy!
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Ah, OESTE… you’ve risen from the deep chasm like Suaron in Lord of the Rings to infect the forum again???
That’s the worst sausage joke I’ve ever heard…
Ll
You mean that a dime does not equal two nickels? I hope you don’t do much business which involves the exchange of monies for monies.
‘The Spirit of God is a Person’???
I did not say that A SPIRIT is not a Person. I said that THE SPIRIT OF GOD is not a Person. GOD IS A SPIRIT BEING (strictly, God IS SPIRIT!) It should be noticed that you stripped the ‘Of God’ part from what I said and presented a false argument from it… that is the type of deceitful claims that actually proves that your belief is a false since you need to provide lies in order to seemingly stake your claim against me… didn’t some of Jews do that to Jesus Christ when they couldn’t find a law that he had broken…!!
SPIRIT is a STATE… GOD, and the Angels are BEINGS in the state of SPIRIT. Man is a Being which HAS A SPIRIT in him. The spirit is not another BEING in the man. Duh!
Of course the claim is not that (word exact) ‘only the 3rd person must not be grieved’ because it that is not what I said nor what the Scripture says.
The Scripture says that ‘The Spirit of God’ (which is NOT A PERSON) must not be grieved. IF, AS YOU CLAIM, the ‘Spirit of God’ is a Person - and ‘The third Person of the Trinity’ then it would logically be that the verse is saying exactly that:
- ‘The third person of the trinity must not be grieved’
Of course you know you’ve been rumbled and hence your squirmy response… once again adding of removing words in order to make your claim appear valid… which only leads to your public embarassment as everyone can see your deceitful input.
Yes, there HAS TO BE plenty of Trinity books because the authors of each tries their own Lind of deceit mixed with other tries and tested (but still found wanting) methods of describing and designating false doctrine.
A mathematically provable formula has ONLY ONE SOLUTION. How many ways are there to prove that 1 + 1 = 2. How many ways are there to prove the Fibonacci sequence?
But how do you even begin to prove that:
- 1 person +1 Person +1 Person = 1 Person
I think you just answered my question!!!
Oeste, IT IS THE SPIRIT of the Father that is grieved…. ‘The Spirit of the Father’ is TRUTH!!
If Truth is made offensive, if Truth is made into falsehood, if Truth is made dishonourable… What hope is their for righteous people?
The question has got you in a quandary… poor you… You are in shock and couldn’t even answer - and of course not…. Better that you had not raised yourself up from the pit your were in!!!
‘FALSE’ Trinity arguments??????? Isn’t that what’s called an ‘Oxymoron’??
But ‘False trinity’ actually equals TRUTH… ha ha ha… Oh Oeste, did you fail logic, Proofs, and Reasoning in Math class?
Of course they don’t work FOR TRINITARIANS… The Tower of Babel that trinity builds will fall when Jesus returns… I acknowledge that you, and others, as the foremen on the building site must do your jobs even as you know the components are not correct… the pieces only seeming to fit when forced into place making the whole structure unstable - but your payment will reflect your instructions to the crew that follow you.
Oh, my Spirit (The Spirit OF ME) oh,,, does that mean there is a person inside me…?) is high - thanks. How’s yours?
Last edited:
DNB
Christian
Your OP is correct: Jesus Christ is not God.
You've read your Bible as you say, and nowhere have you come across the terms: trinity, triune, three-in-one, god-man, god the son, God the holy spirit, incarnation, two natures, hypostatic union, eternal generation, etc...
There's no terminology, and even worse, there is absolutely no sense, or any glory to God in such a theology.
Simply talk to the most ardent trinitarian proponent and ask them to explain the concept in any context (theology, soteriology, Biblical attestation, anthropology, etc), and invariably, they will throw both their hands in the air and say: 'I haven't got a clue of the meaning or feasibility behind anything that I just concluded'
DNB
Christian
Don't hold your breathe - there isn't any. There's no such thing as a god-man, and God is not so foolish as to sacrifice Himself, to Himself in order to effectuate the Atonement.I`m not sure what Andy wants No*s but I`d like to hear Biblical support for the diety of Jesus.
Not to mention, you will never find a single trinitarian nomenclature in any of Scripture, anywhere.
Nor can a single trinitarian explain what they've concluded - nonsense, upon nonsense.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
I’ve missed you too, Soapy.
I realize this is the highest form of praise you can muster for a Trinitarian, and I feel honored to receive it.
I also understand why we might appear as Sauron to a believer in Adoptionist heresies. After all, early Christians were considered Godless atheists as they refused to worship the Emperor or State approved deities. But this is where a moderated debate forum like this comes in. It can foster dialogue and dispel myths.
No, I simply mean they are not always commutative. Read my answer again. It's very self-explanatory.
No, I did not strip anything from what you said. You stripped it, not me. In fact, you stripped it from His Being.
We are going to stop here because this is a very important concept for readers to grasp. You may not understand the concept but that's okay -most of our readers will.
DISCUSSION: Is the Spirit of God not a person?
YOU (not scripture) claimed "The Spirit of God is not a Person". Scripture, on the other hand, states God is Spirit. Let's look at it again:
God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)
This tells us God is Spirit. Not part Spirit, not Spirit and something else, but 100% Spirit. God IS Spirit. Yet, you state the Spirit of God is NOT a person.
Let's look at the ramification of that. When you strip the Spirit of God from God and claim it's not a person, you also strip any possibility of God being a person from God. God is Spirit, not a mashup of Spirit and "something else", so when you take the Spirit of God and claim it's not a person, there is nothing left for God to BE, because He was always SPIRIT!
Now if you had simply claimed 97%, 98%, or 99.9999% of the Spirit of God is not His person, we would at least be left with a small percentage of God that is Person. It would not be in any way biblical, but it would make much more sense. It would leave us with SOMETHING that IS God instead of stripping what He IS away! Instead, you SPECIFICALLY tell us, time and time again, it is the SPIRIT OF GOD (and not some other Spirit), that is NOT a person.
May the FORCE be with you?
Of course, this begs the question of what you think God's Spirit actually IS.
For our fellow, nontrinitarian believers: Is it a "FORCE" like Gamma rays, a collection of charged ions, electricity perhaps? I'm sure there are plenty on this forum that believe exactly that. But I'm afraid that's more comic books and Star Wars than scripture.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Hi DNB:
"God sacrificing Himself, to Himself" would, was, and is an effective argument against Modalistic Monarchianism, such as Sebellianism or Oneness Pentecostalism. I don't see how such arguments would apply to the detriment of the Trinity doctrine, unless they're applied mistakenly. This happens often on this forum.
A rose by any other name is still a rose, regardless of the language or term being used.
Take the word "bible" for instance. Can't find it anywhere in scripture, and don't even think about finding "Beatitudes". Yet we believe, and as a result of this belief, millions upon millions give glory to God because of, and in spite of, theology.
Have a great week everyone, and may God bless (Matthew 5:3-12, Luke 6:20-26)
You need to read your Bible more carefully!
John 10:30, "The Father and I are one."
John 17:20-21, “I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one"
DNB
Christian
Do you not understand sin: who the legislator is, who the offended party is, who the plaintiff is, who the transgressor is?
Modalism or trinitarianism both fail in this regard, attempting to make the sacrifice and the injured party, the same entity - devilish nonsense
The Bible is a book of instructions, meant to edify, correct, and above all: save souls. No Biblical author takes their wording lightly, frivolously, or cryptically. All other doctrines in the Bible have emphatic and incessant didactic passages, and these are on subject matters straight forward to comprehend.
Not a single trinitarian understands anything that they exegete; is it the exegete's fault, or the Biblical writers - the trinity is not in the Bible.
The word 'Bible' is everywhere in the Bible - foolish people keep using this argument.
Bible, or Byblos in Greek, means 'book' - that alone settles the issue - not to mention that everyone knows what a book is - no further explanation required.
But even more so, 'Scripture' is in the Bible, 'word of God' is in the Bible, the 'book of life' is in the Bible, the tablets with the decalogue, and the written law of God is in the Bible, etc...
The word 'Bible', its meaning, its usage, its requirement, is all in the Bible.
The trinity is nowhere in the Bible.
DNB
Christian
You're not qualified to instruct someone on anything in the Bible.
John 10:30, "The Father and I are one."
All Christians are to become with God.
John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
A man and woman are to become one (Gen 2:24, Matthew 19:5-6)King David & Jonathan were one (1 Sam. 18:1)
Your own proof-text indicts you
John 17:20-21, “I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one"
DNB
Christian
You're not qualified to speak of one's understanding, on anything.
I explained everything to you - went right over your head.
You bring a proof-text, that doesn't say trinity, triune, god-man, incarnation, or hypostatic-union. And you think that the grammatical usage of the singular denotes three-in-one - what was supposed to be said: ...in the names of the Father, Son, and Spirit?
The singular denotes one purpose, not one entity.
You're the only one that doesn't understand anything that you're talking about - your proof-text says it all. I wouldn't even dare ask you to try and explain a three-in-one godhead, or what a god-man is, etc...
DNB
Christian
Good argument, gee, I'll have to contemplate that one for a bit???
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Graciously said… What would this forum be like without ones like yourself … it would be like a religious weight trainer who trains with no religious resistant force… Can that build religious muscle like that? Absolutely not!!
Marvellous… As long as you realise what it means to be the furnace that tests the clay vessel… the fire that is put out after it has done it’s testing work!
Equality is absolutely commutative.
If the Son is equal to the Father then the Father is equal to the Son…
If Jesus is supposedly equal to God then God must be equal to Jesus… but wait::: God is ‘Father… Son… AND Spirit of God’.
So Jesus is EQUAL TO “Father… Son… AND Spirit of God’
And “Father… Son… AND Spirit of God“ is equal to Jesus… which is what Oneness Apostolics and Christadelpians, and other ‘Jesus -Only’ ideologists believe … (p.s. I not any of these denominations….!!)
Do you disagree??
If you do then show me the premise upon which you disagree.
Are you saying that ‘The Spirit of God’ has a Spirit of ‘his’ own?
Jesus has a Spirit of his own…
God, The Father, has a spirit of His own…
God poured out HIS Spirit onto Jesus to make him ‘Christ’… anointed Jesus with His Holy Spirit just as God poured out His Spirit onto the Apostles at Pentecost.
Jesus called that holy Spirit: ‘The gift from the Father’… and Jesus promised that the Father would similarly pour out HIS (the father’s) Spirit into the hearts of all true believers:
- “He [The Father] washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit. He [The Father] generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.” (Titus 3:5-6)
God’s Spirit is what it says… The Spirit… how He is, what He is, what He does, how He does it, what He commands, his He commands it:
- With power
- With authority
- With Love
- With righteousness
- With goodness
- With grace
- With love
- With compassion
- With intelligence
- With foresight
- With wisdom
- With truth
- With controlled anger
- With measured forgiveness
- With honesty
- With all things in positiveness
So, where scriptures says that Jesus has the Spirit of God, and Trinitarians say it means he SHARES the spirit of God, now you understand that it is not SHARED… but ADOPTED alongside HIS OWN SPIRIT… Jesus ATTUNES HIS SPIRIT to that of God’s.
“When the righteous Son sees how his Father speaks with kindness, acts in authority, has compassion on certain ones, be controlled in my anger against sinful things, be wise with decisions of delicate matters… the Son adopts the SPIRIT of his Father… He attunes his spirit to be like his Father’s… Speaks like Him, acts like Him…
And people say to him, “When I see you, I see your Father! You are the equal of your father!!”
He replies, “I and my Father are one [in accord], BUT NOT HIS EQUAL… because MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I - for it is He that taught me to be like Him! The words you hear me speak to you are His words that He taught me to speak to you. I speak and do only what I first see my Father doing and I know that what I do is righteous because my Father is righteous!”
When a person adopts the Spirit of God, it means that person ATTUNES THEIR OWN SPIRIT to be in line with that of ALMIGHTY GOD’s Spirit. We cannot attend TO BE GOD… only to be like Him BY our own spirit.
Oeste, what is YOUR Spirit … in what ways do you act, think, do… what is the Spirit of you?
Last edited:
DNB
Christian
Already have - trinity is unholy
The trinity is not an easy concept to understand. Perhaps I can help.
God is spirit. He is not some old bearded man, as depicted in some art. He is the essence of the supreme, tripartate being.
The corporate part of the being is Jesus Christ. He was the one who created the physical world and the member of the tripartate being who has bodily form.
The Holy Spirit is the third part of the tripartate being and is the one who was/is given to humans so that those who accept Him become united spiritually with the son, i.e., they are "in Christ".
This is, of course, a brief summary. It is NOT an easy concept to understand, but once you do, you understand what makes the Christian faith unique.
God is spirit. He is not some old bearded man, as depicted in some art. He is the essence of the supreme, tripartate being.
The corporate part of the being is Jesus Christ. He was the one who created the physical world and the member of the tripartate being who has bodily form.
The Holy Spirit is the third part of the tripartate being and is the one who was/is given to humans so that those who accept Him become united spiritually with the son, i.e., they are "in Christ".
This is, of course, a brief summary. It is NOT an easy concept to understand, but once you do, you understand what makes the Christian faith unique.