Islam for Christians

benign6 · Jun 12, 2007

Hebrew referrences i gave were from onother source. i myself don't know hebrew. Nor i have studied bible a lot. All i was trying was to present islam in my way. Lots of ppl r trying to explain islam but i thought i could present it in a different(may b better) way.

So i stressed on "miracle" thing. Series of prophets & reason they were sent.

In another post person named "Lave" has explained that greek/hebrew words translated as "father" have various meanings out of which "creator" is one. Same case with word "son". So I believe early followers of christianity mis-translated these words into "father" instead of "God" etc. Muslims believe Jesus NEVER said he was son of God, it's mentioned in quran. He said he was messenger/prophet of God.

DavyCrocket2003 · Jun 12, 2007

Good Post Benign. Thanks for trying to promote understanding. We need more people to do this.

love said:
I tried very hard to believe Islam's Allah and God were the same...

I still do believe that we worship the same God. There is only one God so how could we be worshiping different ones. We are both worshiping the loving ruler and Creator of the Universe. Wether we agree to specifics or not, we worship the same being(or whatever you want to call God/Allah) and ultimately we strive for the same things.

I look forward to the day when Muslims and Christians realize that we have a whole lot more in common than seperates us.

neves · Jun 12, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
Because He is our Creator and He deserves it.

Because we're nice.

Same reason as the first one, basically...we owe our lives to God, it behooves us to return some small bit of the favor and do as He asks.

Because Jesus is perfect. He is God in the flesh, He is ultimately the One we should imitate in order to live holy, righteous lives.

Good points... But all we have to do is believe in Jesus and that the died for us... so all these beautiful deed would be obsolete... why did Jesus himself say to do good deeds instead of saying" I will die for all your sins and all you have to do is believe this and you will be saved"... Look at what Jesus taught... it is well worth looking at...

DavyCrocket2003 · Jun 12, 2007

neves said:
Why did Jesus himself say to do good deeds instead of saying "I will die for all your sins and all you have to do is believe this and you will be saved"... Look at what Jesus taught... it is well worth looking at...

:clap

benign6 · Jun 12, 2007

DavyCrocket2003 said:
Good Post Benign. Thanks for trying to promote understanding. We need more people to do this.

thanks. i'll keep trying to decrease the differences & promote commonalities.

benign6 · Jun 12, 2007

benign6 said:
Hebrew referrences i gave were from onother source. i myself don't know hebrew. Nor i have studied bible a lot. All i was trying was to present islam in my way. Lots of ppl r trying to explain islam but i thought i could present it in a different(may b better) way.

So i stressed on "miracle" thing. Series of prophets & reason they were sent.

In another post person named "Lave" has explained that greek/hebrew words translated as "father" have various meanings out of which "creator" is one. Same case with word "son". So I believe early followers of christianity mis-translated these words into "father" instead of "God" etc. Muslims believe Jesus NEVER said he was son of God, it's mentioned in quran. He said he was messenger/prophet of God.

Quran:4:171: "
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word(order) that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one God. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master. "

[19:92] It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.
[5:118] "If You punish them, they are Your constituents. If You forgive them, You are the Almighty, Most Wise."

benign6 · Jun 12, 2007

As i said miracles r done by God not by prophets themselves, these r not like magic which is done by magician himself.

Quran:[5:110] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit(angel), to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, `This is obviously magic.'

benign6 · Jun 13, 2007

sojourner said:
I have one question for you:

In my (admittedly limited) knowledge of Hebrew, the "im" ending is a plural ending. Therefore, elohim is rendered as "the gods." How do you reconcile this with the understanding that Allah is one (if they are, indeed, the same term)?

"im" is pleural of RESPECT. Many languages like Hebrew, Arabic, Urde etc use pleural to call someone respectfull.
It does NOT refer to pleural because it is translated in ALL bibles as singular:-

GEN 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
בראשית ברא אלהים
את השמים ואת
הארץ׃

DEUT 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
שמע ישראל יהוה אלהים
יהוה אחד׃

MARK 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
(could not find hebrew text for this verse)

Also don't u see Jesus is referring to God as Lord, not saying that he is Lord/God himself . Also he is pointing out that He(God) is one Lord (worthy of worship). Same as muslims believe that God is only ONE.

*Paul* · Jun 13, 2007

Echad allows for plurality, as in Adam and Eve. If it said Yachid then you would have to say one person.

benign6 · Jun 13, 2007

*Paul* said:
Echad allows for plurality, as in Adam and Eve. If it said Yachid then you would have to say one person.

We were talking of "im" at end of "Aloh'im"
then WHY it is translated as singular in above verses???
Could they be "Gods" instead of "God" in above verses???
or "Lords" instead of "Lord"?

I heard ppl on TV who have thorough knowledge of hebrew that "IM" is added for respect.
In other languages like urdu, arabic , pleural is often used as respect, even though the addressee is singular. So may be u r right that "im" is for pleural BUT with name of Allah (Aloh'im) & Muhammad(Mahmad'im) it was used for respect.

benign6 · Jun 13, 2007

*Paul* said:
His name would be Muhammed? Where is this prophecy? Chapter and verse please.

Who said so? Did someone ask them?

Was Muhammed a white man?
Song of Solomon 5:10 My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.
This is the one spoken of in Song of Solomon 5:16

Song of Solomon 5:16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
Why do you think it means Mohammed here? What about the other places the word is used? Lets have a go at this:

1st Kings 20:6 Yet I will send my servants unto thee to morrow about this time, and they shall search thine house, and the houses of thy servants; and it shall be, that whatsoever is pleasant [Or Muhammed] in thine eyes, they shall put it in their hand, and take it away.

Isaiah 64:11 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant [Or Muhammed] things are laid waste.

Lamentations 2:4 He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant {Or Muhammed} to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.

Ezekiel 24:16 Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire {Or Muhammed} of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down.

Joel 3:5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant {Or Muhammed} things:

Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved {Or Muhammed} fruit of their womb

The Hebrew word us Machmad מחמד and the verse you cited is not attempting to give a name of a person but a description of his person.

Click to expand...

A word used as name definitelly have some meanings, & can be used in sentences for their meaning BUT addition of resect letters "im" at end of name tells us that bible is referring to real NAMES & NOT as adjectives.

אלהים (read right to left) = Alohym or Alohim(Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark12:29 & Genesis 1:1)
מחמדים (read right to left) = MAHMADIM (Song of Solomon 5:16)

JayHawes · Jun 13, 2007

benign6 said:
*Paul* said:

A word used as name definitelly have some meanings, & can be used in sentences for their meaning BUT addition of resect letters "im" at end of name tells us that bible is referring to real NAMES & NOT as adjectives.

אלהים (read right to left) = Alohym or Alohim(Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark12:29 & Genesis 1:1)
מחמדים(read right to left) = MAHMADIM (Song of Solomon 5:16)

Click to expand...

Looking at the hebrew translation of Song of Solomon 5:16 the word Mahamad'im does not appear. And again, Alohym, comes from the hebrew Elohim meaning gods. El means god, and ohim, makes the word plural, as a singular name for God.

!Fluffy! · Jun 13, 2007

love said:
I tried very hard to believe Islam's Allah and God were the same, but the more I read of Islam the more I doubt it. The whole foundation of Christianity is God's sacrifice for man in the form of Jesus Christ going through death and conquering death for man. I pray that the God loving Muslims of the world will open their hearts to the free gift God has for all mankind.

beautiful. love has expressed quite eloquently what is in the hearts of many Christians.

I believe it is I Cor. 1:18 which says "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God". This explains why unbelievers are quick to embrace and come up with so many alternative theories/heresies - it is pride that makes us want to avoid facing our ultimate bankruptcy and utter inability to earn salvation. "none is worthy, no not one". When confronted with the sacrifice made on our behalf, we can only be humbled to the core, bow the knee, and accept the gift of grace.

Without the cross, we are nothing. Paul explains it here to the Corinthians, who were struggling even this early on with pagan influences and heresies:

I Cor. 15:
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;

14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.

16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;

17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

that's the good news, for everyone!

Cordoba · Jun 13, 2007

love said:
I tried very hard to believe Islam's Allah and God were the same, but the more I read of Islam the more I doubt it. The whole foundation of Christianity is God's sacrifice for man in the form of Jesus Christ going through death and conquering death for man. I pray that the God loving Muslims of the world will open their hearts to the free gift God has for all mankind.

Jesus, peace be upon him, was a human being, God's beloved Messenger to the Children of Israel

From a Muslim perspective, a Merciful and Loving God does not need to "sacrifice" His beloved messenger to forgive the sins of mankind

He is The Most Merciful and He forgives all sins when believers repent. It's as simple as that.

Peace and all the best

.lava · Jun 13, 2007

Moon Woman said:
beautiful. love has expressed quite eloquently what is in the hearts of many Christians.

I believe it is I Cor. 1:18 which says "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God". This explains why unbelievers are quick to embrace and come up with so many alternative theories/heresies - it is pride that makes us want to avoid facing our ultimate bankruptcy and utter inability to earn salvation. "none is worthy, no not one". When confronted with the sacrifice made on our behalf, we can only be humbled to the core, bow the knee, and accept the gift of grace.

Without the cross, we are nothing. Paul explains it here to the Corinthians, who were struggling even this early on with pagan influences and heresies:

I Cor. 15:
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;

14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.

16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;

17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

that's the good news, for everyone!

Hay!

are these verses from Bible? :help:

ps: faith is never worthless. yet it could get better and stronger. since we are weak we can make mistakes but once we noticed we'd find the better way. IMO-

!Fluffy! · Jun 14, 2007

lava, yes those verses are from the Bible.

your answer reveals you are misinterpreting them and/or deliberately missing the point, however.

and that is fine, we can just agree to disagree.

benign6 · Jun 14, 2007

JayHawes said:
benign6 said:

Looking at the hebrew translation of Song of Solomon 5:16 the word Mahamad'im does not appear. And again, Alohym, comes from the hebrew Elohim meaning gods. El means god, and ohim, makes the word plural, as a singular name for God.

Click to expand...

To Sojourner, Jayhawes, Paul,

OK I agree it is used for pleural BUT BUT BUT , אלהים = Alohym in verses Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark12:29 & Genesis 1:1 ---&--- מחמדים = Mahmadym in Songs of Solmon 5:16 ARE TRANSLATED as SINGULAR in Bible

==================== WHY??????? ====================

Only because these verses mention "NAME" of God as Aloh & add pleural suffix(im or ym) for respect.( A tradition in some languages as Hebrew, Arabic, Urdu etc)

& Song of Solomon 5:16 mentions "NAME" of upcoming Comfortor as Mahmad & adds pleural suffix(im or ym) for respect. .(A tradition in some languages as Hebrew, Arabic, Urdu etc)
=
=
=
=
=
=
here r translations which DO NOT show any PLEURAL of God despite im in hebrew text:-

GEN 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
בראשית ברא אלהים
את השמים ואת
הארץ׃

DEUT 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
שמע ישראל יהוה אלהים
יהוה אחד׃

MARK 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
(could not find hebrew text for this verse)

So "God" in all above should be "Aloh" as in hebrew bible.

TashaN · Jun 14, 2007

love said:
I tried very hard to believe Islam's Allah and God were the same, but the more I read of Islam the more I doubt it. The whole foundation of Christianity is God's sacrifice for man in the form of Jesus Christ going through death and conquering death for man.

God=Jesus?

God died?

Do you believe that God was born too and will die at the end just like us?

Are you sure you are talking about the God of Abraham?

I pray that the God loving Muslims of the world will open their hearts to the free gift God has for all mankind.

What gift? killing Jesus while he was defending himself?

TashaN · Jun 14, 2007

DavyCrocket2003 said:
I still do believe that we worship the same God. There is only one God so how could we be worshiping different ones. We are both worshiping the loving ruler and Creator of the Universe. Wether we agree to specifics or not, we worship the same being(or whatever you want to call God/Allah) and ultimately we strive for the same things.

I look forward to the day when Muslims and Christians realize that we have a whole lot more in common than seperates us.

:clap

TashaN · Jun 14, 2007

Moon Woman said:
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

Well, that's what Paul said. It wasn't the word of God, and it wasn't the word of the Messiah, Jesus Christ "peace be upon him".

I guess he said this as an answer to the other Christians who didn't believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Did Jesus ever mentioned that hw has been raised?

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