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Christian/Jew -- Nature/Nurture.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Perusing an article on CNN (Russia's political class is taking a dark and vengeful turn) highlights the shock and surprise that frequently accompanies Jewish persons experiencing the natural inclinations and actions of non-Jewish persons when social events take a dark and vengeful turn. Unlike many Jewish persons, non-Jewish persons can often appear to be more susceptible to nature's darker urging when events take a darker and more vengeful turn.

While the Christian community often applauds the Jewish ability not to succumb to the darker urging of human nature when times turn darker, it nevertheless operates from a fundamental, contra-distinctive, theological attitude or bias as regards the nature/nurture debate. This contradictory theological bias goes a long way toward distinguishing between the more leftist political leanings of Jewish persons versus the so-called political Right made up mostly of so-called evangelical Christians.

One thing that makes this distinction between Jews and Christians interesting is the apparent fact that Jewish persons genuinely do possess either a natural, or else a nurtured ability to act in positive ways that seem difficult for non-Jews when times turn dark. The Holocaust is a case in point since no other people can be thought to endure such a dark time in the manner the Jewish people endured and overcame.

The gist of the matter boils down to the quasi-theological question concerning whether the Jew's unique makeup comes through nature or nurture? If it's nature, then it might be difficult to be transferred to non-Jews in a manner that would befit tikkun olam, repairing the world.

Without a doubt Jewish leftist political biases are based largely on the idea that the unique gift of Jewish temperament can be learned and or evangelized through education and affirmation (CNN's agenda in a nutshell). On the other hand, the biases of the so-called Christian Right (say Fox News for instance) come from a belief that nurture can go only so far in repairing the world; that, so to say, a literal rebirth of some sort is required for the non-Jew to acquire, through nature, what can't fully come through nurturing.

For Paul the church is not another sect, but the community of the new creation. It is ontologically beyond the world of opposites, and so is not a rival religion to Judaism, but a new and inclusive community. . . He [Paul] would have been appalled to see the community of the end of time becoming another sect in time . . ..​
Professor Daniel Boyarin, The Subversion of the Jew: Moses's Veil and the Hermeneutics of Supersession.



John
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
Perusing an article on CNN (Russia's political class is taking a dark and vengeful turn) highlights the shock and surprise that frequently accompanies Jewish persons experiencing the natural inclinations and actions of non-Jewish persons when social events take a dark and vengeful turn. Unlike many Jewish persons, non-Jewish persons can often appear to be more susceptible to nature's darker urging when events take a darker and more vengeful turn.

While the Christian community often applauds the Jewish ability not to succumb to the darker urging of human nature when times turn darker,
I think it has gotten quite dark in Israel and Gaza now, unfortunately. Make no mistake, I think Jews are great and I hope the best for them. But, the Bible is full of examples of Jews turning dark. I think that is the reason who they were scattered, as God promised He will do in that case.

But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Lev. 26:14-16
I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Lev. 26:33

But, I think Bible is a good guide for them, that can help to avoid darkness. I believe it and God are the reasons why they have relatively good resistance for darkness.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I think it has gotten quite dark in Israel and Gaza now, unfortunately. Make no mistake, I think Jews are great and I hope the best for them. But, the Bible is full of examples of Jews turning dark. I think that is the reason who they were scattered, as God promised He will do in that case.

But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Lev. 26:14-16

Your statement puts Jews in the darkest of places since according to Jesus and Paul, no one can do all these commandments such that Jews are under great duress at the hands of the god of this world who appears to expect them to do what Jesus and Paul . . . not to mention Luther . . . claim can't be done.

Apparently Israel is tortured by the god of this world in his strangely misplaced belief that he can command men to do things their very nature makes impossible and then throw them a good beating when they fail.

We non-Jews can be glad we're not the people of the god of this world or else we too would be expected to do what Jesus and Paul said is impossible to do. We too would be subject to periodic pogroms and arse-whippings for our inability to do the impossible.

The god of this world appears to be a leftist who watches CNN nightly and worries that its ratings aren't on top of the heap. He seems to be behind many leftist political inclinations that don't always end well. Which is a condensed way of pointing out that as the god of this world whips his people into a frenzy to repair the world using left-wing tactics, we non-Jews are brought into the picture since, when these left-wing reparations fail, as they often do, we intellectual and theological babies are often thrown out with the mikveh water.

What kind of an organization is this? The organization resolves to actively oppose state and local referenda and statues restricting the civil rights of gay men and lesbians. . . . The organization resolves to support the use of fetal tissue for the purpose of life-saving or life-enhancing research. . . . The organization resolves to advocate a single-payer system as the most likely means of fulfilling the principles articulated in past organization resolutions on health care reform. . . . The organization resolves to call on our federal, provincial, state, and local governments to adopt legislation that will afford partners in committed lesbian and gay relationships the means of legally acknowledging such relationships. . . . The organization resolves to support passage of legislation such as the omnibus Women's Health Equality Act. . . . And so on. . . In other words, what we have here is not the organized Jewish community addressing its particular and legitimate concerns, but the circumcised sector of the Democratic Party, reviewing the party's current policy and endorsing it. . . so [that] the organized Jewish community serves as the Jewish Bureau of the liberal establishment. Its issues, its emphases, its concerns predominate ---and the concerns of centrist America, our issues, our emphases, our concerns never register. It goes without saying that the bulk of the Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative rabbinate, and a fair number of Orthodox rabbis as well, do yeoman service as cheerleaders for left-wing zealotry.​
Rabbi Jacob Neusner, Children of the Flesh, Children of the Promise, p. 84-85.​



John
 
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Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I believe the world balance hasn't really changed that much, if at all, but technology just spreads the extremes much quicker. And unfortunately, oftentimes the news of the happenings, on both ends, are altered.

Even if we look to first century Jerusalem, from what I discern from the biblical record, the Jewish people mainly fell into one of 3 politic positions: Sadducees - those of wealth, wanting to maintain political power and adhering to written law, only: Pharisees - the thinkers, wanting to fulfill the law as discerned by the scribes; and Zealots - the extreme party, wanting action countering their belief the Pharisees were too passive in their resistance to Rome. This is not so different from the left-centrist-right political party positions of today throughout the world, and regardless of party name.

But just as 1st century Jerusalem had the Essences - the pious, ascetic order wanting to heal the world, we have the quiet, stoic individuals and groups working from their communities outward to continue the healing of the world. Most have no desire to be in the spotlight stirring up followers, but rather work in the shadows of soup kitchens, community food banks, fund raising charity shops, sewing for the destitute, and sharing smiles of love and hope.

Jesus debated with the Pharisees, the centrist, to try to open their eyes to the waste of their talents. He didn't bother with the Sadducees or Zealots for there was little hope he could get through to them in his short time, even if he had lived to be as old as Methuselah.

We are more alike than different, and I do believe it is a matter of nature vs. nurture. With nurture being what we need.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I believe the world balance hasn't really changed that much, if at all, but technology just spreads the extremes much quicker. And unfortunately, oftentimes the news of the happenings, on both ends, are altered.

Even if we look to first century Jerusalem, from what I discern from the biblical record, the Jewish people mainly fell into one of 3 politic positions: Sadducees - those of wealth, wanting to maintain political power and adhering to written law, only: Pharisees - the thinkers, wanting to fulfill the law as discerned by the scribes; and Zealots - the extreme party, wanting action countering their belief the Pharisees were too passive in their resistance to Rome. This is not so different from the left-centrist-right political party positions of today throughout the world, and regardless of party name.

But just as 1st century Jerusalem had the Essences - the pious, ascetic order wanting to heal the world, we have the quiet, stoic individuals and groups working from their communities outward to continue the healing of the world. Most have no desire to be in the spotlight stirring up followers, but rather work in the shadows of soup kitchens, community food banks, fund raising charity shops, sewing for the destitute, and sharing smiles of love and hope.

Jesus debated with the Pharisees, the centrist, to try to open their eyes to the waste of their talents. He didn't bother with the Sadducees or Zealots for there was little hope he could get through to them in his short time, even if he had lived to be as old as Methuselah.

We are more alike than different, and I do believe it is a matter of nature vs. nurture. With nurture being what we need.

I like what you suggest. But Jesus did say what we need is to be born again; which, as I take it, is nature not nurture.




John
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I like what you suggest. But Jesus did say what we need is to be born again; which, as I take it, is nature not nurture.




John
The "born again" concept is something I believe is completely different from the evangelical view. But I'll leave that there for the moment. If you run across some of my other forum contributions you'll see what I mean. ;-)
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Your statement puts Jews in the darkest of places since according to Jesus and Paul, no one can do all these commandments such that Jews are under great duress at the hands of the god of this world who appears to expect them to do what Jesus and Paul . . . not to mention Luther . . . claim can't be done.
Please show, where Jesus says no one can do all the commandments?

I don't think keeping the ten commandments is impossible.

However, I also think it is not a problem, if one is not perfect. The problem is if people reject God. Yet, God has not rejected Jews, even though it may seem that. And there is still chance to repent and go back to right path.

Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am Yahweh their God; but I will for their sake remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am Yahweh.
Lev. 26:44-45

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If [any of] your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deut. 30:1-4

Apparently Israel is tortured by the god of this world in his strangely misplaced belief that he can command men to do things their very nature makes impossible and then throw them a good beating when they fail.
Are they all impossible, or only few? Can you give one example of impossible commandment?
We non-Jews can be glad we're not the people of the god of this world or else we too would be expected to do what Jesus and Paul said is impossible to do. We too would be subject to periodic pogroms and arse-whippings for our inability to do the impossible.
I think Jesus expects people to do God's will:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Are they all impossible, or only few? Can you give one example of impossible commandment?

Because of the "nature" of our birth, it's possible to obey all the commandments some of the time but not every one at all times. The New Testament teaches that if you break one commandment one time it's game over so far as the sort of righteousness required to spend eternity in God's presence.

Biologists teach that when organisms began experimenting with sex the unfortunate consequence was programmed death entering the genome. Ironically, the Bible teaches that ha-adam (the first human) was incapable of sex and was thus immortal: he could live with God forever. He was given just one bizarre commandment: don't have sex. The commandment was bizarre since he was incapable of sex. Part and parcel of the "original sin" is that the first human underwent the first sex change making sex possible for humans. Everyone born of human sex is thus condemned at birth. Their nature comes out of the womb tainted by the nature of their birth. They're born-sinners before they commit one sin, before they disobey one commandment.



John
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
. . . But you do believe in the concept of being born-again?



John
Yes, in two different ways and degrees.
1st) In the small multiple steps as we journey through our life learning and revising or core-self. When that revision is a genuine and permanent step it's a spiritual rebirth that is sustainable. This is a major factor in the other "born again" that I believe in.
2nd) I believe God is beyond our comprehension of patience and love, therefore He will guide us through our growth to salvation by judging our core-selves at death, solidifying those sustainable gains, and forgiving our failures. But rather than that final judgement and its consequences occurring then and there with an eternal decision of heaven or hell, He'll consecrate our core-self into another journey towards full salvation where we will give retribution for our errors (temporary hell on earth) and add to our store of heavenly treasures that enrich us in our steps (of heaven on earth).

So I don't believe in being reborn with a one and done approach. The gate is too narrow for that. There's much work to be done before we're shown our prepared room. We must humbly carry our crosses, in faith that they will lighten as we rise closer to home.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Yes, in two different ways and degrees.
1st) In the small multiple steps as we journey through our life learning and revising or core-self. When that revision is a genuine and permanent step it's a spiritual rebirth that is sustainable. This is a major factor in the other "born again" that I believe in.
2nd) I believe God is beyond our comprehension of patience and love, therefore He will guide us through our growth to salvation by judging our core-selves at death, solidifying those sustainable gains, and forgiving our failures. But rather than that final judgement and its consequences occurring then and there with an eternal decision of heaven or hell, He'll consecrate our core-self into another journey towards full salvation where we will give retribution for our errors (temporary hell on earth) and add to our store of heavenly treasures that enrich us in our steps (of heaven on earth).

So I don't believe in being reborn with a one and done approach. The gate is too narrow for that. There's much work to be done before we're shown our prepared room. We must humbly carry our crosses, in faith that they will lighten as we rise closer to home.

. . . Sounds kind of new agey. But in the context of the spirit of this thread you appear to be casting you vote with what's being described as the Jewish idea that our nature is malleable such that the world can be rectified without a new birth.

You seem to be speaking of new birth as a process rather than a Gospel-like event. It's almost like the foot is born. Then later, perhaps after additional acts of coitus, an arm, and then a head, eventually get born, and are eventually combined into a full person?:)



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Good grief ... :facepalm:

The idea that we're all born already condemned, and in need of salvation from the start, is positively unJewish. Fear not. :cool: I'm working on a doctrine that reconciles the Christian position with the Jewish. I think it can be done without damage to either faith's understanding and tradition.



John
 
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Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
. . . Sounds kind of new agey. But in the context of the spirit of this thread you appear to be casting you vote with what's being described as the Jewish idea that our nature is malleable such that the world can be rectified without a new birth.

You seem to be speaking of new birth as a process rather than a Gospel-like event. It's almost like the foot is born. Then later, perhaps after additional acts of coitus, an arm, and then a head, eventually get born, and are eventually combined into a full person?:)



John
No, I would say I view it as most definitely a Gospel event, just not the conservative interpretation. IMO, Jesus was the first soul incarnate to reach heavenly salvation here on earth and his life, death, and resurrection shows us "The Way" he spoke of. He did it! He mastered true salvation!

I believe Jesus is our Christ and Savior, not because he died for our sins. We are responsible for our own thoughts and deeds, both good and evil. I don't believe Jesus was any more or less "God" than you or I. His feat would not be amazing if he was not equal only to US. Of course God can do and be all the goodness Jesus was. But as a man born of woman, as a man made in the image of God, as a man who's mission, as ours, was to conquer the world in his heart/soul and return to God Soul-complete, he led the way and proved his words:

John 14:11-12 "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or believe me for the sake of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes [in] me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to the Father."

Luke 3:6 "and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

Now he sits on the Father's right side awaiting us all to join them.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Because of the "nature" of our birth, it's possible to obey all the commandments some of the time but not every one at all times. The New Testament teaches that if you break one commandment one time it's game over so far as the sort of righteousness required to spend eternity in God's presence.

Biologists teach that when organisms began experimenting with sex the unfortunate consequence was programmed death entering the genome. Ironically, the Bible teaches that ha-adam (the first human) was incapable of sex and was thus immortal: he could live with God forever. He was given just one bizarre commandment: don't have sex. The commandment was bizarre since he was incapable of sex. Part and parcel of the "original sin" is that the first human underwent the first sex change making sex possible for humans. Everyone born of human sex is thus condemned at birth. Their nature comes out of the womb tainted by the nature of their birth. They're born-sinners before they commit one sin, before they disobey one commandment.
Interesting, I don't think that is Biblical teaching.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Interesting, I don't think that is Biblical teaching.

Then we'd be pitting your thinking against Thomas Aquinas. :) In Summa Theologia, Thomas Aquinas say:

Men can externally entice other men to sin as the devil does; but there has also been a special human way in which man has caused sin in others, and that is by inheritance. St. Paul says Sin came into the world through one man. He doesn't only mean that Adam gave us an example of sin, for this is attributed rather to the devil: Death came into the world through the devil's envy. Rather he means that sin was inherited from Adam as our first parent. This is a matter of Catholic faith, and it is the reason why even newly-born babies are brought to be baptized as if to be washed clean from some infection of guilt. To deny this was Pelagius' heresy, which Augustine exposed in a great many works. . .​
What is genetically transmitted in the semen is human nature and, together with that nature, its sickness. The newborn child shares in the guilt of the first parent inasmuch as his nature is brought into being by a reproductive movement from that parent. . .​
Death has spread to the whole human race inasmuch as all have sinned. Catholic faith holds firmly that all men deriving from Adam, Christ alone exempted, contracted inherited sin from him; otherwise not everyone would need Christ's redemption and that is erroneous. . .​
As Adam transmits his sin to all who are bodily reproduced by him, so Christ transmits his grace to all who are spiritually reproduced by him through faith and baptism . . . Only those who are descended from Adam by being brought into existence by the active power of reproduction inherited from him will contract inherited sin from him. Someone fashioned from human flesh by divine power --- a power clearly not inherited from Adam -- would not contract inherited sin. . .​
Natural science teaches us that the father is the active partner in reproduction and that the mother's part is only to provide the material. So inherited sin is contracted through the father and not the mother. If Eve had sinned without Adam their children would not have inherited sin. Nor would they have inherited death and the other natural ills that flesh is heir to. . .​
The inherited sin of all men has its first agent cause in Adam in whom all sinned; the instrumental mechanism of this causality is the semen's active capacity for reproducing human nature accompanied by the sin.​
We could quote St. Augustine, Martin Luther, and John Calvin saying almost exactly the same thing. Here. Listen to the atheist biologist Lynn Margulis:

Death, the literal dis-integration of the husk of the body, was the grim price exacted by meiotic sexuality. Complex development in protoctists and their animal and plant descendants led to the evolution of death as a kind of sexually transmitted disease.​
Lynn Margulis, Symbiotic Planet, p. 90.​




John
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
Then we'd be pitting your thinking against Thomas Aquinas. :) In Summa Theologia, Thomas Aquinas say:

Men can externally entice other men to sin as the devil does; but there has also been a special human way in which man has caused sin in others, and that is by inheritance. St. Paul says Sin came into the world through one man. He doesn't only mean that Adam gave us an example of sin, for this is attributed rather to the devil: Death came into the world through the devil's envy. Rather he means that sin was inherited from Adam as our first parent....​
I agree that sin is inherited. I think it means:
1. Sin is to reject God, or to be without God.
2. Adam and Eve rejected God and were expelled to this first death.
3. Because of that, we are also born in separation from God, and thus in sinful state.

Jesus came to restore the connection to God. And now people have the choice either to reject God and remain in sinful state, or accept the invitation.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I agree that sin is inherited. I think it means:
1. Sin is to reject God, or to be without God.
2. Adam and Eve rejected God and were expelled to this first death.
3. Because of that, we are also born in separation from God, and thus in sinful state.

Jesus came to restore the connection to God. And now people have the choice either to reject God and remain in sinful state, or accept the invitation.

We agree on all of the above. It's just the mechanics that we might not understand in the same way.

Judaism teaches that there are two aspects to the word of God: the written text, and the oral or living element that's not always completely included with, or perfectly clear in, the written text. Take the sin of Adam and Eve through which they sinned and lost direct contact with God. What exactly was the actual act through which the sin was enacted? In the written text it says they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But what does that mean exactly? The Jewish sages use exegetical techniques to try and reveal the oral element from the written, unspoken, text.

One of the most pervasive metaphors for sex in talmudic literature associates it with food. . . For example, wives in the talmudic texts to be discussed below describe their and their husband's sexual practice as "setting the table" and "turning it over". . . the force of the metaphor and the implied equation of the woman's body to food cannot be denied. . . The eating metaphor here must be read within the context of the rich field of metaphor in which sex and eating are mutually mapped onto each other in the talmudic culture with eating the quintessential signifier of that which is both pleasurable and necessary for health and well-being. . . Thus the Mishna at Ketubbot 5:9 reads that a wife has the right to eat with her husband every Friday night, and in both Talmuds, this is understood to mean to have sexual intercourse with him.​
Professor Daniel Boyarin, Carnal Israel, p. 72; 116-117.​



John
 
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