Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
I personally believe that Tarot cards, Rune-casting, and scrying are ancient forms of projective testing similiar to ink-blots and TATs.
They work. And the power comes from within.
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The bible, Prophecies and witchcraft.
- Thread starter darkpenguin
- Start date
I personally believe that Tarot cards, Rune-casting, and scrying are ancient forms of projective testing similiar to ink-blots and TATs.
They work. And the power comes from within.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
But humans would. And we have used the Bible for dark purposes.
He might, but do we?
Ah, but it is magic! The power behind the spells and rituals that magick-casters use is the same that animates life. It is the same that takes our breath away when we gaze at an ocean sunset.
Azakel
Liebe ist für alle da
I think the only thing that makes it right or wrong is what the person believe. As we can see JayHawes think that Magic(k) is evil and of the Fallen, while I think it's a gift from the Gods and not evil. And we can use the the Oracles of Greece and [SIZE=-1]Apocalypse of John(Revelation). The Oracles talk to the Gods of Ancient Greece and what they said was taken as the Word of the Gods. Johns write of Revelation was said to have been told to him by God. What the difference? The both talk to God, just not the same ones. Is it that there God are evil and are Fallen Angels? Not trying to sound mean I'm just trying to figure out what makes it wrong(and some what defending my believes at the same time). But later, I have work.[/SIZE]
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
doppelgänger;848141 said:
I think we can agree that since symbols make up the whole of our reality, the manipulation of symbols is the true power behind magic whatever the religion.
This is really the crux (get it?!
) of the thread. The only difference behind Pagan and Christian magic is the difference in paradigms and worldviews. There are differing and similiar symbols used, but the framework that focuses these symbols appear to be in contrast. I don't think they really are.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Most definitely. And it's the true power behind religion, whatever the magick.
That seems to be right. They use different symbols, different words, but when it comes down to it, the human experience behind the practice is essentially the same for pagans and Christians.
yuvgotmel
Well-Known Member
HYDROMANCY
This is a Kabbalistic interpretation of Ezekiel's vision. I cut & pasted this from a previous post on another thread:
First of all, those that mentioned the Kabbalah and Chassidic Jews are correct in what they posted concerning those things/people. Secondly, I know of no religion that does not practice magic. And as doppelganger pointed out, the difference between black magic or white magic depends on the original intent of the practice and also the intentions/heart's desires of those that are carrying out whatever ritual/ceremony/practices/prayers/etc.
This is a Kabbalistic interpretation of Ezekiel's vision. I cut & pasted this from a previous post on another thread:
Gazing into the water is like gazing into a mirror (i.e. SKRYING).
ADDITION: I suppose that this should be elaborated on a little more. As I was among the exiles on the River Kevar, the heavens opened and I saw visions of God.
As Ezekiel was gazing at the river, Holiness opened the seven heavens for him, and he saw the Power.
A parable has been told. To what can this be compared? To someone who went to the barber. The barber cut his hair and handed him a mirror. As he was looking in the mirror, the king was passing by. He saw the king and his entourage in the mirror as they passed the doorway. The barber exclaimed, Turn around! See the king! He replied, Ive already seen him in the mirror.
So, Ezekiel was standing on the River Kevar. As he was gazing at the water, the seven heavens were opened for him and he saw the Glory of Holiness, along with celestial creatures, ministering angels, bands of angels, seraphs, and angels with sparkling wings, all joined to the heavenly chariot. As they were passing through heaven, Ezekiel saw them reflected in the water. As it is written, on the River Kevar, the River of Already.
The Essential Kabbalah: The Heart of Jewish Mysticism by Daniel C. Matt, page 126
As Ezekiel was gazing at the river, Holiness opened the seven heavens for him, and he saw the Power.
A parable has been told. To what can this be compared? To someone who went to the barber. The barber cut his hair and handed him a mirror. As he was looking in the mirror, the king was passing by. He saw the king and his entourage in the mirror as they passed the doorway. The barber exclaimed, Turn around! See the king! He replied, Ive already seen him in the mirror.
So, Ezekiel was standing on the River Kevar. As he was gazing at the water, the seven heavens were opened for him and he saw the Glory of Holiness, along with celestial creatures, ministering angels, bands of angels, seraphs, and angels with sparkling wings, all joined to the heavenly chariot. As they were passing through heaven, Ezekiel saw them reflected in the water. As it is written, on the River Kevar, the River of Already.
The Essential Kabbalah: The Heart of Jewish Mysticism by Daniel C. Matt, page 126
First of all, those that mentioned the Kabbalah and Chassidic Jews are correct in what they posted concerning those things/people. Secondly, I know of no religion that does not practice magic. And as doppelganger pointed out, the difference between black magic or white magic depends on the original intent of the practice and also the intentions/heart's desires of those that are carrying out whatever ritual/ceremony/practices/prayers/etc.
Yes.
Yes.
Azakel
Liebe ist für alle da
Please correct me if I'm wrong and am thinking something different. Or you say that YES they are Condemned by God and that There God are evil. Are you answering for him or is this what you think. And if yes, what make you think that, because your book says so. So what now, my Gods are evil and Demon and I'm going ti hell for using Magic(k). I don't think that far now do you.
Blindinglight
Disciple of Chaos
Can you back this up without a book? Have you ever used a deck of Tarot cards to form your own, fully unbiased opinion?
Don't you find it unfair to judge something first looking at both sides, and a hinderance to knowledge, should you only base your point of view from one source?
I am saying this.
What I think.
Because God says so in His book. If you have other Gods beside the God of the Bible, that exist outside of imagination, then I would say that they are evil and demonic in nature. I wouldn't go so far as to say that you will go to hell, its not my place.
Why?
I've never fornicated to make sure my opinion is unbiased either.
If that source is God, yes.
Blindinglight
Disciple of Chaos
Because it shows you know nothing about them, other than what your "holy text" says about them.
There is a big difference between fornication and Tarot cards. Fornication is simply sex with someone other than a spouse. Tarot cards are a tool of the divine. Well, real Tarot cards that is. There are plenty of fake cards by people out to make a quick dollar, but that is another discussion.
The point is, you have admitidly never used a Tarot deck. Thus, how can you begin to claim any knowledge of them?
You can call upon your own God, any other God, or spirit, for aid in dealing them. The same goes for any other form of divination. It is fear of the unknown that earned them an "evil" association. The early authors did not understand how divination works, thus did not know they can call upon God to guide them.
But, God knows that he can directly guide a session of divination, for his followers and non-followers alike. After all, Tarot cards are nothing more than paper with symbols on them. You can easily make a Christian themed deck, with Christian sybols, prayers said over them to charge them, and make them controled by your God.
Azakel
Liebe ist für alle da
Understood.
So what now my God are ether Imaginary or if the are real there Evil and Demonic in nature. You know nothing of my Gods, of can you say there Evil and Demonic in Nature, I say your God is "Evil" and "Demonic" in nature. I have read story in the bible, he doesn't seem all to nice, tell his people to KILL others for not believe the same thing they do. But that a different topic there.
Mike182
Flaming Queer
he doesn't need to know our Gods, he knows his God, and what his God wants for him.
i suggest we drop the "what does your God think of my God?" dialogue for a bit, it won't get anywhere anyway. the topic at hand is the difference between prophecy and tarot.
could the Christians please post an agreed definition of prophecy please? what is its purpose and place in the Christian faith? how is it used?
and for us tarot users, what does the tarot actually do? why do we use it?
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
This may be totally off base, but I believe the cards, when used properly, give us insight into problems, and gets us to look at things in a different way. It can even reveal hidden things (or, rather, things we don't want to face), and brings the subconscious out into the open.
People use it for all sorts of reasons, mainly for advice, or to help them solve a problem from a different angle that they may not have thought of. Or, even to reveal the root of a problem that keeps propping up. Sometimes people use it to predict the future (like "will I ever get married" etc), but I don't believe that spreads like that are completely effective.
Actually, I think that's the difference between prophecy and divination - prophecy is about predicting the future, while divination is about insight into the past and present, and only helps us prepare for the future.
darkpenguin
Charismatic Enigma
I couldn't have said it better myself, I still don't see why it's seen as evil and wrong though.
Gentoo
The Feisty Penguin
Agreed, they're just cards, pieces of paperboard with pictures on them.
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
Well, in some of the Christian worldviews, anything that isn't Christian is of Satan, and therefore evil. I think the compromise is that people have to accept that worldview, and Christians have to accept that theirs isn't the only one out there. *shrug* It doesn't bother me if someone thinks something I do is evil, I just invite them to not do it.
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
I've heard some Christians say that the "power" behind the cards is a demonic one. However, I have never thought of the reader as being guided by some spirit in order to interpret the cards. I always thought that view of tarot reading was sort of flakey. It's the symbolism, the randomness, and the context of the situation in question that gives the person being read for the ability to consider the advice, which in turn is what gives the reading it's "power".
But, they are just cardstock with pretty pictures. An object only has power if you give it power.
Gentoo
The Feisty Penguin
I think that what people aren't understanding is that the power comes from within, from whoever is making the connections. Like you said, there is only power if you give it power, if you think they're demonic they by all means they are. But I don't believe them to be demonic, so by the same logic, they're not.
I might argue that while the acts themselves seem very far apart, the nature of them are very close together. The point is, however, that I am not going to sin merely for the sake ensuring an unbiased stance.