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Discussion on Book of Scripture, anyone interested?

Bishka

Veteran Member
Tomorrow I am going to be starting a discussion on the book of Titus (more epistle then book) in the New Testament, and I wanted to know who was interested. You can be theists and none theists. This is just a thread to know who would be interested in it and what direction I might be taking (depending on whose participating). Thanks!

P.S. If you interested, I might perhaps ask you to read over a specific area and then come back with thoughts on it, if that's okay? I welcome all faiths and non-faiths!!
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Count me in, though in all honesty, I may not contribute much.
I really do like reading these type threads though as I usually learn much more than I could ever contribute.

If that is ok with the group...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It would do me good to read Titus. Hopefully, I will have something intelligent to contribute.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Suppose :angel2: i will help; if you are interested in seeing why it contradicts Christ and the rest of the Bible?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I can't speak for the others, but I would rather have a positive discussion about Titus and focus on what we can learn from it rather than a spurious controversy about how it is of the Debil. You have a definite axe to grind and I would imagine that it would run counter to what we are trying to accomplish. But hey, it's Becky's study so she can make the call.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
after having a quick glance of Titus, there could be some interesting discussion. though i doubt i would contribute much, i would certainly be around the forums on Sunday and interested in joining in, if non Christians are welcome? :)

Edit: oh yeah, i'm using the NRSV anglicized edition... it might be worth us all using an online version so that we are all reading from the same page...
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
Actually, having various translations and views helps us to see more about the scripture. I will be using the NIV I find on www.BibleGateway.com.

yeah, i figured that the discussion would eventually break further into "but this translation differs on this verse...." and different translations can put different spins on interpretations... but to start the discussion with a common version might be beneficial as that initial ice breaker.

just a thought :shrug:
 

Special Revelation

Active Member
Tomorrow I am going to be starting a discussion on the book of Titus (more epistle then book) in the New Testament, and I wanted to know who was interested. You can be theists and none theists. This is just a thread to know who would be interested in it and what direction I might be taking (depending on whose participating). Thanks!

P.S. If you interested, I might perhaps ask you to read over a specific area and then come back with thoughts on it, if that's okay? I welcome all faiths and non-faiths!!

Thanks Becky for starting a great Thread. I pray that we learn together. We both believe that Titus is the Word of God...correctly translated of course :) .
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
Here goes then, i'll be using the Holy Bible the King James Version as always:

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

Not the usual customary greeting from Paul as he usually calls himself the servant of Christ (Rom 1:1), (Gal 1:10), as do James (James 1:1), Peter (2 Pet 1:1) and Jude (Jude 1:1) .Personally I think in Pauls mind there is no difference and he uses the God and Christ interchangably in this epistle as we shall see.
Christians are now the elect of God and chosen by Him through Jesus Christ to propagate the truth and true godliness (i.e practice and doctrine).

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

In hope of eternal life, hope here means not a vain wish but an expectation, this word is commonly misunderstood. the greek word is elpis which means in anticipation of. Of course God promised it and He cannot lie which gives us every reason to expect it to be given to us. Note that here is one of the things that an all powerful God cannot do, He cannot lie this is because it would be contrary to His Holy nature and in Him is no darkness at all. (1John 1:5). So if God promises something you have every reason to wait in expectation for it.

Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour

God has manifested the eternal life promised by his word in the gospel. Paul asserts that he has been entrusted with the preaching of God's Word by which it is manifested or made clear.

In due times or when God had ordained that it should be done the time which he had intended i.e the best time. See also 1Tim 2:6.

Paul asserts also that this responsibility has been commited to Him by God our Saviour. This we see here:

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me

There is no Saviour but God, this is clear and Paul an ex Pharisee would be more than familiar with these verses:

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me

Now to the very next verse:

Titus 1:4 To Titus , mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Who is the Saviour here? Jesus Christ!! :faint: As the Angels also declared at the birth of Jesus Christ.
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

He calls Titus his son, he probably led him to Christ he is his son after the common faith it is in that way that he is his son and that way only. (the word after meaning according to).

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

He reminds Titius of the mission he had left him with, finishing the work that Paul was unable to finish i.e ordaining elders in the churches that had been planted through out the area.

Here are the neccessary requirements for an elder which I think is a genrel term for an overseer in the church because he refers to the person as a bishop in two verses time:

Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Blameless i.e not one who people can point to to slander the faith because of their lifestyle.

The husband of one wife as here also:
1st Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Having faithfull children: as here also:

1st Timothy 3:4-5 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
That is, having a family well-governed, and well-trained in the faith. If a man's children were rebellious, and opposed to Christianity, if they were decided opposers of the faith or scoffers, it would show that there was such a deficiency in the head of the family that he could not be safely entrusted with the government of the church.

I'll continue later on.
 

Special Revelation

Active Member
Here goes then, i'll be using the Holy Bible the King James Version as always:

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

Not the usual customary greeting from Paul as he usually calls himself the servant of Christ (Rom 1:1), (Gal 1:10), as do James (James 1:1), Peter (2 Pet 1:1) and Jude (Jude 1:1) .Personally I think in Pauls mind there is no difference and he uses the God and Christ interchangably in this epistle as we shall see.
Christians are now the elect of God and chosen by Him through Jesus Christ to propagate the truth and true godliness (i.e practice and doctrine).

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

In hope of eternal life, hope here means not a vain wish but an expectation, this word is commonly misunderstood. the greek word is elpis which means in anticipation of. Of course God promised it and He cannot lie which gives us every reason to expect it to be given to us. Note that here is one of the things that an all powerful God cannot do, He cannot lie this is because it would be contrary to His Holy nature and in Him is no darkness at all. (1John 1:5). So if God promises something you have every reason to wait in expectation for it.

Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour

God has manifested the eternal life promised by his word in the gospel. Paul asserts that he has been entrusted with the preaching of God's Word by which it is manifested or made clear.

In due times or when God had ordained that it should be done the time which he had intended i.e the best time. See also 1Tim 2:6.

Paul asserts also that this responsibility has been commited to Him by God our Saviour. This we see here:

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me

There is no Saviour but God, this is clear and Paul an ex Pharisee would be more than familiar with these verses:

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me

Now to the very next verse:

Titus 1:4 To Titus , mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Who is the Saviour here? Jesus Christ!! :faint: As the Angels also declared at the birth of Jesus Christ.
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

He calls Titus his son, he probably led him to Christ he is his son after the common faith it is in that way that he is his son and that way only. (the word after meaning according to).

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

He reminds Titius of the mission he had left him with, finishing the work that Paul was unable to finish i.e ordaining elders in the churches that had been planted through out the area.

Here are the neccessary requirements for an elder which I think is a genrel term for an overseer in the church because he refers to the person as a bishop in two verses time:

Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Blameless i.e not one who people can point to to slander the faith because of their lifestyle.

The husband of one wife as here also:
1st Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Having faithfull children: as here also:

1st Timothy 3:4-5 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
That is, having a family well-governed, and well-trained in the faith. If a man's children were rebellious, and opposed to Christianity, if they were decided opposers of the faith or scoffers, it would show that there was such a deficiency in the head of the family that he could not be safely entrusted with the government of the church.

I'll continue later on.

That's really good Paul! Have you considered a calling and ministry of teaching and preaching?
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Again Paul emphasises that the Bishop must be blameless in other words he must be such a one who will not give the enemies of the gospel cause to slander God's holy name because of his lifestyle. All Christians should be zealous for the Name of God, that it be not slandered becuase of them.

Steward of God is like a manager running the business for an owner or a superintendent, he must do so faithfully and prudently thinknig only of what is pleasing for his master.

Not selfwilled he shouldn't be an arrogant man who only cares about his own views and what he wants. This I am inclined to think of as the opposite to a lover of hospitality

Not soon angry the man of God should be kind natured and have time and patience with people the Bishop should be more like this:
1st Corinthians 13:4-5 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

If he is not then he cannot preach such virtues or correct those that stray from them, he must be an example of all that he teaches.

Not given to wine is am assuming means not greedy for wine as though his affections are given over to it. I am of the opinion that this verse does not teach total abstinence though that admirable.

No striker would be someone who is not going to hit you even when provoked.

Not given to filthy lucre i'd say is that he must not be one that takes advantage of his position and high standing in the church and manipulates the flock into giving money for his own personal gain. He doesn't promise people blessings or miracles in exchange for money, he doesn't like a prince or a celebrity with a lavish lifestyle but he must be temperate and holy. Paul gives us perfect advice on how we should deal with such people:
1st Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
These virtues I would view as the contrast to what Paul has just been talking about, e.g sober vs given to much wine or temperate vs given to filthy lucre. How we need more church leaders like this today. Temperate is as Chrysostom would say one having his passions, tongue, hand and eyes, at command, another similar King James word witht he same idea is continent.


Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
He holds fast or embraces very tightly the faithful word or the gospel as he was taught, he doesn't go wandering off theologically and is not led astray but is a staunch defender of the faith not conceding any of the truth. He is able to convince or refute the scoffers and those who oppose the faith with sound doctrine. Here is an example of what Paul would mean by sound doctrine:
1st Timothy 1:9-11 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
To be sound is to be whole i.e his doctrine is healthy doctrine not lacking what it needs to effect it's purpose and will be built upon the foundations of the Apostles and Prophets with Jesus as it's cornerstone.
Here is an example of a healthy church:
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

The reason this is so important is because:
Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
As it is now, so it was then. There are many deceivers and we only know that their doctrine is false if we are grounded in sound doctrine. They are unruly or they go their own way and won't come under the authority of sound doctrine (insubordinate), vain talkers, babblers with vain philosophies.
People who's only authority is their own opinions led astray by the philosophies of men and try to make the word of God agree with them refusing to be corrected by it. This was especially true of those following what Judaism had then become. This warning is quite important because their were a lot of Jews living in crete at that time, those particulalry dangerous were the judaizers who rather than oppsoe the gospel outright perverted it by trying to add to it the neccessity of following the laws of Moses to be saved.

Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Their mouths must be stopped, in other words expose them for the charlatons that they are, not by rudeness or aggression but by sound doctrine remember, refute their teachings and exhort with much patience.
Subverting whole houses i.e confusing and leading astray whole households from the purity of the gospel with the leaven of their false teaching and this they evidently were doing not even out of sincerity but for filthy lucres sakes probably to devaour their incomes as part of following the law in my opinion.

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
This prophet of their own (Paul saying that they acknowledged him as a prophet) was Epimenides (500 - 600 bc) who did make prophecies that came true. Poet was also a term synonymous with prophet amongst Romans. Paul is quoting his work "concerning oracles" which is now no longer extant.
The Cretans were so reptuted to be bad liars that to act like a cretan was to signify that you were a liar and a deciever. I think the meaning is that amongst theJewish teachers and native Cretans it was most advisable to exxercise utmost vigilance in the selection of people for the ministry (remember he is talking to the person he had left to ordain elders). They all had well-known reputations, which made it prudent that no one should be admitted into the ministry without extreme caution. I think aswell, from the reasoning of Paul, that the character of the people referred to here included not only the Cretans, but also Jews living there because he evidently means that caution should extend to all who dwelt on the island.


Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Paul agree with this reputation that they have and so tels Titus to rebuke them sharply or drive home to them forcefully the wickedness of their character. He is certainly not concerned with Titus making friends on the Island and is a world apart from todays purpose driven physcology based evangelism moves. But the purpose here is not to make them feel like nobodies to to show them the error of their ways that they may be sound in the faith.
 

Special Revelation

Active Member
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Again Paul emphasises that the Bishop must be blameless in other words he must be such a one who will not give the enemies of the gospel cause to slander God's holy name because of his lifestyle. All Christians should be zealous for the Name of God, that it be not slandered becuase of them.

Steward of God is like a manager running the business for an owner or a superintendent, he must do so faithfully and prudently thinknig only of what is pleasing for his master.

Not selfwilled he shouldn't be an arrogant man who only cares about his own views and what he wants. This I am inclined to think of as the opposite to a lover of hospitality

Not soon angry the man of God should be kind natured and have time and patience with people the Bishop should be more like this:
1st Corinthians 13:4-5 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

If he is not then he cannot preach such virtues or correct those that stray from them, he must be an example of all that he teaches.

Not given to wine is am assuming means not greedy for wine as though his affections are given over to it. I am of the opinion that this verse does not teach total abstinence though that admirable.

No striker would be someone who is not going to hit you even when provoked.

Not given to filthy lucre i'd say is that he must not be one that takes advantage of his position and high standing in the church and manipulates the flock into giving money for his own personal gain. He doesn't promise people blessings or miracles in exchange for money, he doesn't like a prince or a celebrity with a lavish lifestyle but he must be temperate and holy. Paul gives us perfect advice on how we should deal with such people:
1st Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
These virtues I would view as the contrast to what Paul has just been talking about, e.g sober vs given to much wine or temperate vs given to filthy lucre. How we need more church leaders like this today. Temperate is as Chrysostom would say one having his passions, tongue, hand and eyes, at command, another similar King James word witht he same idea is continent.


Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
He holds fast or embraces very tightly the faithful word or the gospel as he was taught, he doesn't go wandering off theologically and is not led astray but is a staunch defender of the faith not conceding any of the truth. He is able to convince or refute the scoffers and those who oppose the faith with sound doctrine. Here is an example of what Paul would mean by sound doctrine:
1st Timothy 1:9-11 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
To be sound is to be whole i.e his doctrine is healthy doctrine not lacking what it needs to effect it's purpose and will be built upon the foundations of the Apostles and Prophets with Jesus as it's cornerstone.
Here is an example of a healthy church:
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

The reason this is so important is because:
Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
As it is now, so it was then. There are many deceivers and we only know that their doctrine is false if we are grounded in sound doctrine. They are unruly or they go their own way and won't come under the authority of sound doctrine (insubordinate), vain talkers, babblers with vain philosophies.
People who's only authority is their own opinions led astray by the philosophies of men and try to make the word of God agree with them refusing to be corrected by it. This was especially true of those following what Judaism had then become. This warning is quite important because their were a lot of Jews living in crete at that time, those particulalry dangerous were the judaizers who rather than oppsoe the gospel outright perverted it by trying to add to it the neccessity of following the laws of Moses to be saved.

Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Their mouths must be stopped, in other words expose them for the charlatons that they are, not by rudeness or aggression but by sound doctrine remember, refute their teachings and exhort with much patience.
Subverting whole houses i.e confusing and leading astray whole households from the purity of the gospel with the leaven of their false teaching and this they evidently were doing not even out of sincerity but for filthy lucres sakes probably to devaour their incomes as part of following the law in my opinion.

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
This prophet of their own (Paul saying that they acknowledged him as a prophet) was Epimenides (500 - 600 bc) who did make prophecies that came true. Poet was also a term synonymous with prophet amongst Romans. Paul is quoting his work "concerning oracles" which is now no longer extant.
The Cretans were so reptuted to be bad liars that to act like a cretan was to signify that you were a liar and a deciever. I think the meaning is that amongst theJewish teachers and native Cretans it was most advisable to exxercise utmost vigilance in the selection of people for the ministry (remember he is talking to the person he had left to ordain elders). They all had well-known reputations, which made it prudent that no one should be admitted into the ministry without extreme caution. I think aswell, from the reasoning of Paul, that the character of the people referred to here included not only the Cretans, but also Jews living there because he evidently means that caution should extend to all who dwelt on the island.


Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Paul agree with this reputation that they have and so tels Titus to rebuke them sharply or drive home to them forcefully the wickedness of their character. He is certainly not concerned with Titus making friends on the Island and is a world apart from todays purpose driven physcology based evangelism moves. But the purpose here is not to make them feel like nobodies to to show them the error of their ways that they may be sound in the faith.

Thanks again Paul! I was ministered by your biblical exposition of the Word of God! God the Holy Spirit truly illuminates the Word of God to those who are His. I believe the Word of God is also concealed intentionally to those who are perishing.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Paul, I am starting a completely different thread. And if you could please keep it to a couple of verses at a time instead of a huge chunk of things. Thanks!
 
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