Hu'an buddhism

mahayana · Jan 12, 2005

Thought I'd share this with you.

http://www.kungfu-guide.com/guide.html

America got a dose of buddhist sayings on a TV show in the 1970s. This site collects the sayings, episode by episode. I always liked Grasshopper and Master Po.

Anyone have scholarly insights about this strain of buddhism which seems to be mixed with taoism?

"Love cannot measure itself until the hour of parting." - Caine

"In every loss there is gain. As in every gain there is loss." - Po

Master Vigil · Jan 12, 2005

Any strain of buddhism that made its way into china, japan, or korea has taoism in it.

lilithu · Jan 12, 2005

Master Vigil said:
Any strain of buddhism that made its way into china, japan, or korea has taoism in it.

Perhaps, but some more than others. For example, I do not see much Taoism in within Shin buddhism.

lilithu · Jan 12, 2005

mahayana said:
Anyone have scholarly insights about this strain of buddhism which seems to be mixed with taoism?

Scholarly insights, no. Questions, yes. I am unfamiliar with Hu'an buddhism, and confused by your reference to the tv show "Kung Fu." The Shao Lin temple, upon who's teachings the show was based, practice Ch'an (or Zen) buddhism. Ch'an is most certainly a hybrid of Taoism and Buddhism. How does Hu'an relate to Ch'an? A google search netted me nothing.

mahayana · Jan 12, 2005

My error; I should have titled this Ch'an buddhism. I googled Shaolin Temple and read a history which mentioned the kind of buddhism practiced there, remembered it wrong. Sorry.

lilithu · Jan 12, 2005

mahayana said:
My error; I should have titled this Ch'an buddhism. I googled Shaolin Temple and read a history which mentioned the kind of buddhism practiced there, remembered it wrong. Sorry.

Well if we're talking about Ch'an (Zen) then I should keep my big mouth shut lest I reveal even more ignorance. Afterall, those who speak do not know and those who know do not speak.

But what the hay. I am happy to be the fool. Did you have questions about Ch'an or did you want to engage in a discussion? With a name like Mahayana, I would assume that you know something about Buddhism.

Master Vigil · Jan 13, 2005

Ahh, chan. Or in japanese, zen. This type of buddhism definitely is influenced by taoism. But it was also influenced by confucionism. While both discuss the "tao," confucious thought that humanity and society shaped the tao. While Lao Tzu said that the Tao shaped us. While zen recognizes that the tao shapes us, they also use formal and rigid rules and procedures that shape ceremonies and such. Basically zen is focused on zazen, or sitting meditation. They will sit for days sometimes. And that is their main purpose. Most of them do not chant, they do not focus so much on anything other than sitting. They believe that enlightenment can be achieved by sitting. They also developed what is known as koans. Or riddles that are used to push the mind to the edge, and to break through and break free into enlightenment. This is also a taoist idea of getting "beyond the words." Western logic and reasoning have no importance to a zen buddhist. I hope that helped some.

mahayana · Jan 13, 2005

Thanks for your comments, lilithu. I'm interested in the Ch'an, which you seem to equate with zen. I've been reading through the quotes from these old TV shows (have read the first 40 episodes), and they intrigue in part because the character is forced to resort to self-defense so much. And stresses balance and duality more than oneness, if that makes sense.

Yes, my buddhism is more about meditation and peace and service, while this philosophy seems more about graceful confrontation of those who would do harm. I suppose the subject is buddhism and violence. Any thoughts on that?

Master Vigil · Jan 13, 2005

I think you would find more truthful representations of buddhism and violence by really studying the shao lin lifestyle. You see, when bodhidharma came to china, not only did he see a low end of spirituality, he also saw a low end of physical fitness. He developed exercises called chi gung to help get the monks in shape. And when the monks ever needed to defend themselves they developed the fighting style known as kung fu. But the fighting styles is a form of meditation for the shaolin. Overcoming the body and mind and having complete control over both. Imagine being able to do 2 finger handstands (one just one hand). The tv series did not portray the shaolin lifestyle very well.

lilithu · Jan 13, 2005

mahayana said:
Thanks for your comments, lilithu. I'm interested in the Ch'an, which you seem to equate with zen.

Ch'an is Zen. Zen is just the Japanese word for Ch'an. By accident of history, the West became familiar with Japanese representatives of this school of Buddhism first, so we know it as Zen. But they are more or less the same. It is also the same as Son in Korean (except that there's a little crescent moon-shaped thingie above the "o" that I don't know how to type).

mahayana said:
I've been reading through the quotes from these old TV shows (have read the first 40 episodes), and they intrigue in part because the character is forced to resort to self-defense so much. And stresses balance and duality more than oneness, if that makes sense.

Sure. The balance and duality is most likely the influence of Taoism - the yin and yang. The lead character has tattoos of a dragon and a tiger on his arms, right? The dragon is yang - heaven/light/expansive/male - and the tiger is yin - earth/dark/receptive/female. Only by recognizing the balance of these two can one live in one's full potential.

mahayana said:
Yes, my buddhism is more about meditation and peace and service, while this philosophy seems more about graceful confrontation of those who would do harm. I suppose the subject is buddhism and violence. Any thoughts on that?

Master Vigil gave a good explanation for the link between Ch'an and the martial arts. And I also agree with him that a TV show might not be the best way to pursue an understanding of Ch'an. The show's plot is contrived so that the protagonist is always forced to fight and give the viewer a spectacle. As MV said, Ch'an itself is mostly about sitting meditation. (Tho it seems to me that there is some "violence" in the koans.)

I am no expert on martial arts, but one theme that I continually hear is that one takes advantage of one's opponents energies by letting them use them against themselves. Thus, it seems to me that kung-fu is not so much about graceful confrontation as knowing how to act to cause the least amount of "disturbance." I know that sounds weird given all the violence in martial arts movies and shows, but that is my take on it. If one is in tune with the Tao, one does not disturb it. One practices "wu wei." But now I've crossed over entirely from Buddhism to Taoism. Perhaps MV can help dissect these out.

mahayana · Jan 13, 2005

An example: (from episode 38)

"I looked deep into myself and saw. . . evil." - Young Caine
"'Do you sometimes feel love. . . and joy? Do you sometimes feel pride in what you have accomplished?. . . And do you sometimes feel good?. . . But the threads that make up our human nature are two ended. There is no capacity for feeling pride without an equal capacity for feeling shame. One cannot feel joy unless one can feel despair. We have no capacity for good without an equal capacity for evil.' - Master Po
'Must we not fear evil?' - Young Caine
'Shall we fear our own humanity?' - Master Po
'Must we not fight evil?' - Young Caine
'Who can defeat himself? For what is evil but the self seeking to fulfill its own secret needs. All that is necessary is that we face it and choose.'" - Master Po
"I have seen your face before. Behind me in the mirror." - Caine, when facing an evil man

Is this buddhism?

Master Vigil · Jan 13, 2005

"I looked deep into myself and saw. . . evil."

After this line, I knew the answer. No. The quotes you gave were taoism. It may have strains in tibetan buddhism, but in no way was it chan buddhism. While a taoist may understand evil inside of himself, a buddhist would say. No evil exists, it is just illusion. So the whole rest of the conversation would never have happened. He would have been hit with a stick and told to go meditate more. (Hence the violence in koans that was talked about).

lilithu · Jan 13, 2005

Master Vigil said:
"I looked deep into myself and saw. . . evil."

After this line, I knew the answer. No. The quotes you gave were taoism. It may have strains in tibetan buddhism, but in no way was it chan buddhism. While a taoist may understand evil inside of himself, a buddhist would say. No evil exists, it is just illusion. So the whole rest of the conversation would never have happened. He would have been hit with a stick and told to go meditate more. (Hence the violence in koans that was talked about).

I saw that first line and couldn't recognize it as either Buddhism or Taoism. Do Taoists speak of evil? There is light and dark, male and female, etc. Is there really good and evil in Taoism? (I am not arguing against you; I'm sincerely curious.)

Master Vigil · Jan 13, 2005

Actually no. There is no necessarily evil in taoism. But evil would be seen now as being an opposite which taoists believed in and buddhists did now.

mahayana · Jan 14, 2005

Thanks for the insight. By the last (third) season, none of the sayings seemed buddhist. Archery as meditation, "the archer, the bow, the arrow, the target are one" I can see as buddhist. Likewise, the thoughts that killing is wrong, that one should seek to do no harm, perhaps that one should seek to do the least harm. But a buddhist warrior seems a contradiction.

How about this:

"I know about 'war.' It is a word men use to clothe the nakedness of their killing." -Caine

"Will vengeance ease your pain?" -Caine

"'Vengeance is a water vessel with a hole. It carries nothing but the promise of emptiness.' -Master Po
'Shall I then repay injury always with kindness?' -Young Caine
'Repay injury with justice and forgiveness, but kindness always with kindness.'" -Po

Master Vigil · Jan 14, 2005

It just seems like they tried to put in profound statements to make Master Po sound wise. Sure there is some eastern thought thrown in there, but it is not necessarily buddhist philosophy.

mahayana · Jan 19, 2005

If I follow, then, zen buddhism originated from bodhidharma in China. Ch'an is buddhism mixed with taoism and confucionism. Kung fu was practiced as a meditation. Chan no longer exists in China.

I found another link to share, Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun

http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Home/home-index.html

Is chan alive on the internet?

Master Vigil · Jan 19, 2005

The first paragraph is correct except for the last line. Chan does exist in China. It is just more prevalent in Japan where it is called Zen. Chan and Zen are the same thing, just different languages. Kung Fu was first developed as what many martial artists call "moving meditation." But the monks had to learn how to defend their land and themselves so it inevitably turned into a system of self defense.

As for your last question, you just cited a webpage that was solely about chan. Even though it said zen they are the same thing. Following?

mahayana · Jan 19, 2005

But did you read anything that's over there, MV? That "virtual zen temple" presents hundreds of quotations, many poems and stories, which are not buddhist. At least, to my mahayana way of understanding. But I'm attracted to it, none-the-less. Much like the old TV show, it matters little whether profundities come from buddhists, christians, existentialists...the enlightened view is to try them on, consider them all, decide what makes sense.

I still don't follow that chan is zen, though I guess it seems obvious to you (and the people with the Hsu Yun website). Were there Chinese chan masters who went to Japan, established orders which were then called zen? Is zen also a mix of buddhism, taoism and confucianism? Did it add more local influences , such as Shinto?

lilithu · Jan 19, 2005

mahayana said:
I still don't follow that chan is zen, though I guess it seems obvious to you (and the people with the Hsu Yun website).

It's just a difference in language. Ch'an is the Chinese word for this religion/philosophy. Zen is the Japanese word for the same body of knowledge.

It's like saying that "chai" and "tea" are the same thing. They are two words from two different languages that refer to the same thing.

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