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Judges Chapter 19
- Thread starter daemonikus
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
I agreed that it was evil for the girl being raped to death. I also don't think much of the master. He was no better than the rapists.
But I thought it was equally evil that the war had exterminate every single male, including old men and baby boys, many of which had nothing to with the rape of the concubine.
Is that any better?
But I thought it was equally evil that the war had exterminate every single male, including old men and baby boys, many of which had nothing to with the rape of the concubine.
Is that any better?
FFH
Veteran Member
Look very carefully at the story. The concubine was not murdered, but died, probably due to sexual exaustion, or drank too much, etc... we don't know for sure why she died, but when her husband discovered her the next morning on his doorstep she was already dead...read the heading of the story and the story closely again. Click on this link: Judges 19
Neither the husband nor God is responsible for her death. she left on her own free will...just as Israel has done the same thing...the husband cut her up in 12 pieces to send a strong prophetic message to the twelve tribes of Israel that if they did not repent the same would happen to them..
Israel was not only scattered throughout the earth but of course we know millions were murdered and buried in mass graves...any many more have been throughout the earth, but we have lost track of many of them since they have mingled in over the centuries with other cultures. ..
I have worked with Russian Jews, who are very very quiet about their roots...
FFH
Veteran Member
Lot's daughters may have willingly suggested to their father that they satisfy the people of Sodom, who wanted the two angels.
Bottom line we don't know why Lot offered his daughters, just guessing that Lot's daughters may have agreed to it also. Possibly they (two daughters) were willing to offer themselves in exchange for protection of themselves, their father and mother and the two angels, who had entered into their house. They may have all felt physically threatened to the point that they feared for their lives. The angels probably perceived the good intentions they may have had therefore they caused the people of Sodom to become blind, in order that they would all be saved alive, until they were all safely out of Sodom...
Fear played a role in Lot's decision, as it did with the daughters, who probably were willing to sacrifice themselves for the safety of their mother, father and the two beautiful angels....
I have seen an angel (resurrected immortal beings who have lived on earth and received their perfect beautiful bodies) and they are extremely beautiful, it's hard to explain the type of beauty, but I've seen it a few times in some people I know.both male and female. I also know a female who has seen an male angel (resurrected being) and she said his face was very beutiful. Demons and resurrected beings also have perfect faces and can deceive many into believing they are angels of light...I have seen one of them, either a demon spirit or an evil resurrected being, (not sure if he had a physical body or not, but either way a spirit body is also perfect in every way or at least can appear as so).....both instances (good and evil beingss I saw) were just for a fraction of a second. I was able to see into the spirit realm just briefly on two seperate occasions about 20 years apart...
FFH
Veteran Member
Lot and his family probably had no weapons and besides there were probably a lot more of "them" than they could handle...only a wooden door stood between them, which they (people of Sodom) could have easily broken down and killed Lot and his family in order to get to the angels...
It seems as if Lot and his family were willing to lay down their lives for these angels, in any way they knew how, just short of dying for them. They would have to offer themselves to satisfy the wicked people of Sodom. His daughters may have suggested such a solution, rather than see their father die and the angels taken by the hostile sexually obsessed people of Sodom...
People can get to the point in which they will kill in order to satisfy their lusts. Sexual sins are the only sins that are next to murder in severity as far as how God views them....
Sexual sins brought to the extreme usually results in anger, hate, rage and then murder if not kept in check...
No doubt that Lot and his two daughters felt like their lives were in danger if they tried to keep the wicked people of Sodom from these two angels, and they were willing to do something they would not normally be willing to do in order to keep the two angels safe. The two angels rewarded them for that and caused them to go blind so the two daughters would not have to go through with their plan, which may have been suggested/offered to their father, as a way of protecting the two angels. Maybe the two daughters wanted to protect the two angels becuase they thought they could be possible husbands for themselves...Remebmer they (Lot's two daughters) later raped their father in order that they might carry on their father's seed so they may have also wanted to protect these two angels for themselves for the same reason...
FFH
Veteran Member
Jesus is not God, but is God's only son in the flesh...
"God sent his only begotten son, so that whomsoever would believe in him would not perish but have everlasting life" ~Jesus~
Jesus said "If you have seen me you have seen the Father"
Jesus came to show us who the Father was....
God was so merciful that he did not want one of us to suffer for our own sins so he sent his only son in the flesh to take the hit for us if we would keep his commandments and turn from sin...
Satan demands justice for all sins committed by man, and he will obtain justice for those sins, if man does not excersice faith in Christ and turn from sin...
Satan equals justice
God equals mercy
Justice must be satisfied for all man's sins....either man will experience the justice of sin, through Satan's powers/ wrath, or man will avoid justice/punishment if he hands them over to Christ and turns from them. Either way justice will be served...
God would rather see us avoid the wrath of Satan and his powers upon our physical bodies and spirits....
gnostic
The Lost One
No. You are wrong, FFH.FFH said:
First of all, a concubine is nothing more than a mistress or slave.
She didn't go out on her free will, she was put out, by her master.
Judges 19:25-26 said:
Does that say that she wasn't raped? And certainly nothing about her being drunk, I don't know where you the idea that she was drunk.
Whichever way you look at it. The Levite is not a good man, if he won't protect his concubine. He shove the girl out to protect his own skin, so he was no better than the rapists.
You seem to be sugar-coating it.
Again, you are only making assumption. There is nothing that say Lot's daughters wanted sex with the men of Sodom.FFH said:
In both cases, in Judges and with Lot in Genesis, it was the host who offer their daughters; nothing say that the daughters and concubine wanted to be raped.
Where do you get these silly assumptions, FFH? If you had daughters, would you throw them at pack of men, if your own life was in danger? It would seem this is okay back then, and you seemed to be sugar-coating that it was not the men's faults.
FFH
Veteran Member
I think I can address this with a couple of scriptures.
Concubine's history...
Judges 19:2
And his concubine played the whore against him, and went away from him unto her father’s house to Beth-lehem-judah, and was there four whole months.
Husband gives her a second chance..
Judges 19:3
And her husband arose, and went after her, to speak friendly unto her, and to bring her again...
Judges 19 heading
The men of Gibeah abuse his concubine and she dies
Lot and his daughters
Lot's daughters got their father drunk and then raped him, just after they had been saved from Sodom...
These women were not exactly examples of purity in the Bible...
Darkness
Psychoanalyst/Marxist
FFH said:
And dying from being raped too much is not murder?
FFH said:
"But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them"
Nothing here suggests that she willingly wished to sacrifice herself. It says that he brought her.
FFH said:
They may have, but seeing as how women were treated back then, I wouldn't be surprised if he did offer them without their approval.
FFH said:
You mean something like this Angel.
Don't be offended if I take your personal visions as moot.
FFH said:
So the sex slave who was married (probably forcefully) to him, slept with other men and this naturally makes her a girl who just loves to be raped by a mob. Get real FFH.
daemonikus
godkiller
wow....can i buy some pot from you?
daemonikus
godkiller
it just goes to show the ludicrous things that occur in the name of religion. how religion can destroy an entire society and create a world where people (ie the women of these stories) are treated no better than cattle. yeah. real good morals. how come those stories arent in the childrens books?
gnostic
The Lost One
I think you are forgetting, FFH, that incest was normal practice in the period of the Genesis.FFH said:
Who do you think Cain and Seth married? Their sisters. There were no other people except family of Adam and Eve.
Abraham married his niece, Sarah, and Nahor also married his niece Milcah. Issac married his niece-grandniece with Rebecca and Jacob did the same with Leah and Rachel.
If taken in the proper context in the Genesis, just about most of the patriarchs on Seth's line had married their sisters, first-cousins, and nieces, to avoid contamination. This type of unions can be also seen in the pseudigraphal text - Book of Jubilees, which like the books of Enoch, was very popular text in Jesus' time.
So your argument about Lot's daughters sleeping with their father is not so strange. Your protest on the ground of purity and that "incest" being not the practice of purity is quite meaningless on this context. There were no Mosaic law against the practice of incest, and the Genesis is rife with it. Unless you have something to say against Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Issac and Jacob too, then your objection against Lot are pretty much meaningless. If incest was evil practice during the time of the patriarchs, then why didn't God put to stop to it.
You can't put your Christian-LDS view is something that was written by the Hebrews before Jesus' time.
gnostic
The Lost One
None of your quotes in post #29, says that the Levite's concubine wanted to go out there with the mob to be raped and abused. The Judges say that the Levite sent her out. And this is to say his own skin. Your post is only based on your unsupported, thus baseless, assumption that she wanted to be raped.
You are no better than the Levite and the rapists, if this is the case, FFH, when you think that women "wanted to be raped". Rapists today make precisely this type of excuse in court, in regarding to the way women dressed or the way they look. I am terribly disappointed with you, FFH, that you would think this way of women.
I would agree with you that God was not responsible for her death, but I'd totally disagree with you about the Levite not being responsible. He had caused her death.FFH said:
You are no better than the Levite and the rapists, if this is the case, FFH, when you think that women "wanted to be raped". Rapists today make precisely this type of excuse in court, in regarding to the way women dressed or the way they look. I am terribly disappointed with you, FFH, that you would think this way of women.
gnostic
The Lost One
Sarah is the daughter of Haran (Genesis 11:29), Abraham's brother (thus Abraham's niece), and sister of Lot (Genesis 11:27) and Milcah (Genesis 11:29). Abraham is not only Lot's uncle, but they are in technically brothers-in-law. See my website Dark Mirrors of Heaven, in the Genesis in Brief page; I drew up the family tree of Abraham (it's the last tree). So clearly, she is Abraham's niece.Darkness said:
What I find strange is that there are only 10 years apart between Abraham and Sarah; this would mean that Haran was older than Abraham. And why does the Bible called her the daughter-in-law of Terah (Genesis 11:31), instead of calling her his granddaughter?
From what I can see, the concubine is the only innocent victim of Chapter 19. It would seem that the Bible portrays the Levite as the hero, but not according to my book. He is the villain and the coward, using his concubine to save himself. He wanted her as concubine, and had to win her, but this is how treat her when he was in danger.Darkness said:
I find it is strange that FFH would not blame the Levite for the rape and death of the concubine, and making excuses that the concubine wanted to be sacrificed and raped, when the Bible make no mention of her willing participation of being raped.
Darkness
Psychoanalyst/Marxist
gnostic said:
I only question the genealogy because Abraham says, "And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." Here, Abraham claims that Sarah is his half-sister.
I don't have time now, but I will read your web site later this evening, if I get the time. It seems very interesting. :yes:
gnostic said:
It is sad that women were treated like dirt back in Biblical times. Christians can say God values men and women equally, but YHWH did not give a damn about the way women were treated. Gnostics view YHWH as the Demiurge or am I mistaken? If Levi wanted to be a true hero, he would have gone out and satisfied the mob himself. It is the only noble course of action I can imagine. I would do it for the purely selfish reason of not wanting to see the poor slave abused.
Christians (note: not all Christians) cannot accept the fact that the men in those days abused women and that the Bible/YHWH is all right with that. Why doesn't God smite Levi? Surely He is in the business of doing that back then. I seem to remember YHWH smiting a man for merely steadying his Arc. Can't YHWH at least scold men for the abuse of women? Christians know that women were abused back then, so they have to create reasons (with no supporting evidence) as to why they deserved it.gnostic said:
I'd say the lesson is don't be a whore.
gnostic
The Lost One
Well, the site is mainly about different versions of the events that happened during Genesis' time (eg. times of Adam, Enoch and Noah), using obscure texts, such as Pseudigrapha, Apocrypha, Haggada, and the Gnostic texts from Nag Hammadi.Darkness said:
The page titled Genesis In Brief is merely giving people who have not read the Genesis a little background. But I do provide some genealogy in this page, so it may be of interests to some people. The main sections of the site are:
I have also provided genealogy in these other pages based upon different texts, and even timeline of the Patriarchs.