The Truth About God.

Spiritual Son,

I am not assuming what I post is true,it is the truth.

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Whoa there hot stuff! Hold the phone! That is a pretty bold statement to say the very least. A statement like that requires a crapload of evidence. Where is yours? The bible, you say? Very interesting, considering that I believe the bible holds zero credibility. So what else have you got? Without using the bible, explain to me how you know what you know. If you can come up with an alterior source of evidence other than the bible and related documents, I will have finally acheived what I sarted, what is it-- 5 pages ago?

I also just want to point out, I'm not talking about god as a trinity or otherwise. I'm talking about god in general. How do you know he exists? (remember, no bible!)

Because a faith that can not survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets

Q, you ask alot of questions. Perhaps you should seek answers elsewhere

Ceridwen018 said:

Spiritual Son,

I am not assuming what I post is true,it is the truth.

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Whoa there hot stuff! Hold the phone! That is a pretty bold statement to say the very least. A statement like that requires a crapload of evidence. Where is yours? The bible, you say? Very interesting, considering that I believe the bible holds zero credibility. So what else have you got? Without using the bible, explain to me how you know what you know. If you can come up with an alterior source of evidence other than the bible and related documents, I will have finally acheived what I sarted, what is it-- 5 pages ago?

I also just want to point out, I'm not talking about god as a trinity or otherwise. I'm talking about god in general. How do you know he exists? (remember, no bible!)

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What I am about to post is the truth: I was led out of the Catholic Church by the Lord in the year 1966,and led to the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg. New Church's doctrines is base on his writings.

Every church has its own ideas about what God is saying in all those passages in the Old Testament, especially Isaiah 9:6. When you tell the churches by the saying of Isaiah 9:6 Jehovah God alone will come into this world and assume a Human Form,they say no.

The church believes that the sayings of Isaiah is meant that the second person will come. They are defending their church's Creed,where it written in it that the Father is the Almighty,the Son is the Almighty,and the Holy Spirit is the Almighty, and yet there is not three Almighties, but one Almighty. Jehovah God was not contradicting Himself in His sayings in the Old Testament,and I agree with Him.The church is condicting itself. Anyone with an open mind can see that there were no trinity of persons before creation.

It seems to me that the church worships three gods in spirit.The say one God with the mouth,and yet think three. The mouth saids one thing,and the mind saids another.

Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God else beside Me? A just God and a Savior, there is none beside Me (Isa. 45:21,22).
I am Jehovah; and beside Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).
I am Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt acknowledge no God beside Me and there is no Savior beside Me (Hos. 13:4).

Harry

Harry

The point is that your truth is exactly that, it is yours and no one elses.

Perhaps I can offer some of my limited knowledge. First of all, invisible does not automatically equal non-existence. We cant see the wind, but we know its there b/c it can be felt and we can see the effects of the wind. But thats just a side issue...

The real dilemma and basic argument is that one cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible. I couldnt agree more. Thats circular reasoning. Sadly, many believe that the Christian faith is a blind faith, but I would argue that the Christian faith is an intelligient faith.

I cannot give you one reason wrapped in a pretty bow as to why I believe the God of the Bible exists. That doesnt negate my argument though. I will explain the three classical arguments for the existence of God and we can go from there. You may be familiar with these.

The first is called the cosmological argument. Evolutionists can go as far back as the Big Bang Theory in which the great kaboom occured and spawned earth and primordial ooze. However, they have yet to explain logically how and why that happened and also with what material. How did it get there?

The second is the teleological argument for the existence of God. It says that intelligent design can be seen in all creation. From DNA and cell structure to the earth's postioning to our human body. This explanation is simplistic, but it gets the point across.

The third is the moral argument. All rational people across time and culture have adhered to a set of moral principles, however different they may be. As Sir John Templeton said, "Would it not be strange if a universe without purpose acidentally created humans who are so obsessed with purpose?"

Hey TheoGirl, how goes it?

The real dilemma and basic argument is that one cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible. I couldnt agree more. Thats circular reasoning. Sadly, many believe that the Christian faith is a blind faith, but I would argue that the Christian faith is an intelligient faith.

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You can't even believe the gleeful feeling that came over me when I read that! 'What's this?', I asked, 'A Christian with brains?' (no offense to other christians out there) :roll:

All right then, on with the debate!

The first is called the cosmological argument. Evolutionists can go as far back as the Big Bang Theory in which the great kaboom occured and spawned earth and primordial ooze. However, they have yet to explain logically how and why that happened and also with what material. How did it get there?

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Alright, here's my take: First of all, as far as what set off the Big Bang, (we'll just go with that theory for now-- technicality's a *****, hehe), scientists do have a few options up their sleeves. Take quantum events, for instance. Now, I know very little about these, so I'd like to call on some of my firends out in the forums to help me out on this one, but here's the basic premise.
I believe that everything in the universe runs in a rational pattern (for the most part). Like you were implying, the Big Bang certainly seems irrational and unpatterned from the surface, but you've got to think about it outside the time of the Earth. I believe that quarks, quantum events, whatever, have been running in patterns as well, only on a much larger scale--as in, every trillion years vs. every thousand. Given that, it is easy to see why a quantum events would seem highly sporadic, because given the length of its pattern, there is perhaps only one occurance in the entire lifetime of a planet. This is but a running theory, (of course scientists at this time cannot prove when and how other quantum events have happended, in the hopes of establishing a pattern), however, given the order and logical workings of everything else in the universe, it is certainly an educated guess to infer that quantum events are, in their own way at least, logical as well.
As far as 'what materials and how they got there' goes, think about this. First of all, scientists do have theories about what materials were present at the Big Bang, although that is of course impossible to prove (to the best of my knowledge), however, based on what materials can be found in the Earth today, etc, that I don't think is a very difficult question to answer. Secondly, you ask how the materials got there. Is it so hard to fathom that perhaps the materials had simply just always been? Why did someone or soemthing have to put them there? You see, you believe that god was just there, and that no one instigated him. It's the same concept. The universe has existed forever, for infinity. Like what I was saying about quantum events, we may not be the first Earth-like creatures to inhabit and live out our existence in the universe.

The second is the teleological argument for the existence of God. It says that intelligent design can be seen in all creation. From DNA and cell structure to the earth's postioning to our human body. This explanation is simplistic, but it gets the point across.

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This is where people get a little too smart and inferencing for their own good. We just cannot accept the idea that our Earth is one giant coincidence. Think about this though: The earth was not 'created' to suit our needs, we were 'created' due to the fact that conditions were right. Bottom line, the Earth came first, and the fact that we're here is because things happened to be right. There are a million ways the earth could've gone though, when you think about it. If it's atmosphere had been anything other than what it is, that doesn't mean there wouldn't be life, even intelligent life, it just means that the life would breathe the different atmosphere. We breathe oxygen, not because that's what we're supposed to breathe being humans, but because that's what the earth had to offer, and we evolved accordingly.

The third is the moral argument. All rational people across time and culture have adhered to a set of moral principles, however different they may be. As Sir John Templeton said, "Would it not be strange if a universe without purpose acidentally created humans who are so obsessed with purpose?"

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All people accross time and cultures have similar morals, because those morals point towards one thing: survival of a community, which was the prime focus back in those days. You aren't going to get very far as a unit with people trying to kill each other and being selfish, etc. therefore, killing and selfishness become bad traits because they are detrimental to society.
About purpose: it goes along with what I said before. We were not born with purpose, we developed it out of instinct. If we had not developed purpose, we might still be here, just as another common animal or something.
That was a little vague though-- could you explain better what your definition of 'purpose' is? that'd help me answer that better I think.

Very interesting reading the comments here. Everyone has a profound interest in religion. From a Christians point of view, all he has as a text book is the Bible. Is it accurate?. Faith will tell you it is because if it is inspired of the most powerful being imaginable, He will ensure it remains untainted. The Dead Sea scrolls prove how the scriptures have remained true to their MEANING over two centuries. But one comment considering the earth not important. It is denied at Isaiah 45;18....He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited....This simple scripture has been in the Holy writings of the Jews since before even Jesus was on this earth. And its still there...Can it be so wrong?. I dont think so.

SAILORMAN,

I'm a little confused here. What, exactly, was denied at Isaiah 45.18?

It also sounds to me like you're basing the validity of these ancient writings on their longevity and their supposed inspiration from god, neither of which are satisfactory witnesses, but I feel like I might be misunderstanding you here.

TheoGirl--

Cosmological argument: It's possible that A) the Big Bang was caused by a quantum event, which are beleived to be acausal, or B) the Big Bang was caused by a quantum event, which was caused by God, and God is acausal. Theory A has less factors in it (it's simpler) and therefore it's more probable for A to be accurate than B (look up Occum's Razor).

Teleological argument: DNA and the rest of the universe has been shown to be the result of various properties of the universe. One could argue that God CREATED those properties (and therefore created everything that sprung from them). But again, the theory that the laws of the universe, which are acausal, created the complexity that we observe (without God) is a simpler theory and more probable than saying God (who is acausal) created those properties.

The moral argument: Humans are not the only animals with morals. Ants sacrifice themselves for their queen, other animals sacrifice themselves for their young, etc. These behaviors are beneficial for group survival. Almost all morals can be explained as being beneficial to the spread of human genes in some way, and the ones that can't are memes which are basically information viruses of the brain (see the Is Religion a Virus? thread).

All three of these arguments are mere "filling in the gaps" arguments. They take something science has not yet fully agreed upon (ie what caused the Big Bang) and proclaim that the lack of one, single, logical explaination that all science agrees with equates to God's hand in something. This is a huge logical fallacy.

First of all, invisible does not automatically equal non-existence. We cant see the wind, but we know its there b/c it can be felt and we can see the effects of the wind.

You just contradicted yourself.

However, they have yet to explain logically how and why that happened and also with what material. How did it get there?

Science does not answer the question, “why.”

And just because those questions haven’t been answered yet does not mean they will never be answered.

So, where in the bible or anywhere else for that matter are those questions answered? And if gods are supposed to be infinite, why then haven’t they enlightened us as to what happened before the Big Bang?

It says that intelligent design can be seen in all creation.

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest intelligent design. If by intelligent design, why are there so many flaws?

All rational people across time and culture have adhered to a set of moral principles, however different they may be.

Moral principles stem from social interaction, not gods.

Hmmm… it appears the classical arguments don’t hold water.

(Q) said:

Harry

The point is that your truth is exactly that, it is yours and no one elses.

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It is not my truth.All truth is God's. Truth can be explain in many ways as there are angels in heaven.Each angel and man has his own understanding of truth,but understanding from the right knowledge.This has been lacking in the church. A knowledge that goes far enough to understand that God is one Divine Person,not three.

No one can understand the Word the way God does. That's why God teaches according to the way angels and men understand. In that sense God is called Elohim. He the reason angels and men are little gods. God leads all to the truth in both worlds.

The Divine that is meant by "God" is the Divine Existere in heaven, because the Divine in heaven is in many.Therefore in the Hebrew language, God is called "Elohim," in the plural. For the same reason angels are called gods, not that they are gods, but because the Divine of the Lord that is in them is meant by "God."

It is said that the man rises up.The truth is that he is raised up by God. For in acquiring knowledges for himself man exercises his freedom of choice. But as he acquires for himself knowledges from the Word by means of his understanding he prepares the way by which God comes down and raises him up. The right knowledges by means of which the human understanding rises, God holding it in His hand and leading it, may be likened to the steps of the ladder seen in a dream by Jacob, which was set upon the earth with the top of it reaching to heaven, by which the angels ascended while Jehovah stood above it (Gen. 28:12, 13).

Jacob's ladder means the man's understanding raiseing up to God. Wrong knowledge means no understanding of God. The man's understanding is raise up by the right true knowledge. The wrong knowledge has been taught in the churches.There are too many contradiction in the church.

Did you know in the Swedenborg's writings we were meant to become angels. That's why angels were seen from the earth ascending up the ladder. They are us becoming angels through the understanding of the right knowledge.

Harry

Alaric said:

If you're just copying and pasting, Harry, then you're wasting everyone's time.

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The Word was written in correspondences.

When Jehovah God was in the world under the name Jesus Christ He spoke by correspondences, thus that He spoke spiritually while He spoke naturally, is evident from His parables, in each and every word of which there is a spiritual sense.

Take for example the parable of the ten virgins:
The kingdom of the heavens is like unto ten virgins, who took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom; five of them were wise, and five were foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil, but the wise took oil in their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried they all slumbered and slept; and at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh, go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins awaked, and trimmed their lamps; and the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out; but the wise answered, saying, Not so, lest there be not enough for us and you; but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready went in with him to the wedding, and the door was shut. Afterwards came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, lord, open to us; but he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not (Matt. 25:1-12).

That there is a spiritual sense in each and every one of these things, and a consequent Divine holiness, can be seen by him only who knows that a spiritual sense exists, and what is its nature.

In the spiritual sense, the "kingdom of God" means heaven and the church.The "bridegroom," the Lord.The "wedding," the marriage of the Lord with heaven and the church by means of the good of love and of faith.

"Virgins" signify those who are of the church; "ten," all; "five," some; "lamps," the truths of faith; "oil," the good of love; to "sleep," and to "awake," the life of man in this world which is natural life, and his life after death which is spiritual; to "buy," to procure for themselves; to "go to them that sell and buy oil," to procure for themselves the good of love from others after death; and as this can then be no longer procured, although they came with their lamps and the oil they had bought to the door where the wedding was, yet the bridegroom said to them "I know you not."

The reason is that after his life in this world a man remains such as he had lived in this world.

From all this it is evident that the Lord spoke exclusively by correspondences, and this because He spoke from the Divine that was in Him called the Father, and was His.

That the "bridegroom" signifies the Lord.The "kingdom of the heavens," the church; a "wedding," the marriage of the Lord with the church by means of the good of love and of faith; "ten," all; "five," some; to "sleep," a natural state; to "buy," to procure for one's self; a "door," entrance into heaven; and "not to know them," when spoken by the Lord, not to be in His love, is evident from many passages in the prophetic Word where these expressions have a like signification.

It is because "virgins" signify those who are of the church that the virgin and daughter of Zion, of Jerusalem, of Judah, and of Israel are so often mentioned in the prophetic Word. And it is because "oil" signifies the good of love that all the holy things of the Israelitish church were anointed with oil. It is the same with all the other parables, and with all the words the Lord spoke, and that were written in the Gospels.

This is why the Lord says that His words are spirit and are life (John 6:63).

It is the same with all the Lord's miracles, which were Divine because they signified the various states of those with whom the church was to be set up anew by the Lord.When the blind received sight, it signified that they who had been in ignorance of truth should receive intelligence.

When the deaf received hearing, it signified that they who had previously heard nothing about the Lord and the Word should hearken and obey; when the dead were raised, it signified that they who otherwise would spiritually perish would become living, and so on.

This is meant by the Lord's reply to the disciples of John, who sent them to ask whether He was the one that should come:
Tell John the things which ye do hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead rise again, and the poor hear the gospel (Matt.11:3-5).

Moreover, all the miracles related in the Word contain in them such things as belong to the Lord, to heaven, and to the church. This makes these miracles Divine, and distinguishes them from those which are not Divine. These few examples are given in order to illustrate what the spiritual sense is, and to show that it is in all things of the Word and in every particular of it.

Harry

true blood,

Because a faith that can not survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets

Q, you ask alot of questions. Perhaps you should seek answers elsewhere

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Number one, no one knows what the 'ultimate truth' is, or if there even is one, so how do you now your religion has survived a collision with it? Number two, are you aware of the great many different religions which are thriving today? Only one of them can be true, yet all of them have survived the same test of time. Perhaps that test is not as qualified for finding truth as you think.

Lastly, this is a debate forum. If you cannot answer Q's questions, maybe you should seek elsewhere. (for I have an acute feeling that it is because you cannot not because you will not)

Ceridwen018, Yes i do believe I know the abosolute truth. Secondly, I don't believe in religion so don't label me. And as for answering Q's questions its my choice. If I thought he was sincere in his questioning maybe I would but quite frankly I don't give a who. And as for debating..Q and others like yourselves will make a statement or a denial but NEVER post any other works that might support your side.

Perhaps that's because I come to my conclusions based on my own questioning and logic, rather than the what was written by someone else thousands of years ago.

Jehovah God,who is Jesus Christ in the Human, descended as Divine Truth, which is the Word, although He did not separate from it the Divine Good. There are two things that constitute the essence of God, the Divine love and the Divine wisdom, or what is the same, Divine good and Divine truth. That these two are the essence of God has been shown above.

Moreover these two are what are meant in the Word by the name "Jehovah God," "Jehovah" meaning the Divine love or Divine good, and "God" the Divine wisdom or Divine truth.

For this reason these two names are distinguished in the Word in various ways.Sometimes the name "Jehovah" alone is used, and sometimes the name "God" alone-the name "Jehovah" when the Divine good is treated of, and the name "God" when the Divine truth is treated of; and the name "Jehovah God" when both are treated of.

That Jehovah God descended as the Divine truth, which is the Word.

Is shown in John as follows:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among, us (John 1:1,3,14).

And the Word was with God.With God,means,in God. Truth is in Good,and Good is in Truth

The Lord said to Philip in John 14," Believe that I am in the Father,and the Father is in Me.Truth is in Good,and Good is in Truth. This the same as "And the Word was with God. The Word,which is the Lord, is in the Father, and the Father in Him. The Father and Son are one person,not two.

By "the Word" here the Divine Truth is meant, because the Word, which is in the church, is Divine Truth itself, for it was dictated by Jehovah Himself; and what is dictated by Jehovah is nothing but Divine truth, and can be nothing else.

But inasmuch as the Divine truth passed down through the heavens even to the world, it became adapted to angels in heaven and also to men in the world.

For this reason there is in the Word a spiritual sense in which the Divine truth is seen in clear light, and a natural sense in which it is seen obscurely.

That the Lord in the world was the Divine Truth is evident from His own words:
I am the Way,the Truth,and the Life (John 14:6);
also from these words:
We know that the Son of God is come,and hath given us an understanding that we may know the True; and we are in the True, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20)
and still further by His being called "the Light."

As in the following passages:
There was the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:4, 9).

Jesus said, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, that darkness overtake you not. While ye have the light believe in the light, that ye may be sons of light (John 12:35,36,46).
I am the light of the world (John 9:5).


Simeon said, For mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, a light for revelation to the Gentiles (Luke 2:30-32). And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world; he that doeth the truth cometh to the light (John 3:19, 21).
besides other places. "Light" means the Divine truth.

The Christian churches today are still in darkness, because it does not look to the Lord alone as God of Heaven and earth.

They look to the Father for the sake of the Son. Like trying to approach Jehovah God in the Infinite state.

Jehovah God can be understood in the finite state only.That's why He became Man under the name Jesus Christ.

By approaching the Lord we approach the Father in Him at the sametime. No one comes to the Father,except by Me,said the Lord.

Harry

Hello all and God Bless. Hey, I just want to first say that God is real and His love for you will not cease, even if you do not accept Him. However, the choice is yours to make, "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:9-10,13)." In addition, the one true God is one God three persons. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, as scripture has revealed Him.
Now, as for the reliability of the Bible there is no book with more reliability or a foundation that to this day has not been shaken by skeptics, individuals who have actually have constistently tried to destroy the Bible throughout history, non-skeptics, critisicm, or any other action. The Bible is reliable because:
1. It has thousands of prophecies, which have come to pass to their exactness. For example, during this empire this king will be born to this family and his name will be this. Except the empire had not existed, and yet it came to pass. In addition, the prophecies were very specific by which the Messiah Jesus Christ had all prophecies concerning His first coming, fulfilled to their exactness. The chance of one of 8 prophecies(Their 300+ prophecies concerning Jesus, some concerning His second coming) occurring would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That is just eight, He fulfilled nearly 300.
2. Throghout history the Bible has proven right even when skeptics have denied its historic accuracy. For example, the Hittites were once considered to not exist outside the Bible by skeptics. Then, they were found, or at least the evidence for their existence was, again proving the Bible's reliablity.
3. To denie the new testament's reliablity would mean that one would have to deny Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato, Demosthenes, Caesar, Livy, Tacitus, and other such classic authors, because the new testament not only has copies written at least 50 years from the actual occurence, but as many as 25,000 copies proving its reliablity. The most from the classic author Homer is 643.
4. If one were to lose all the new testament copies, they could reproduce the new testament from other sources like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen, and many more.
5. It was written by 40 authors at different times, places, moods, three different continents, and individuals of completely different character. However, it has been constistent throughout. One purpose, the redemption of mankind.

There are many other examples of reliability, but I guess I would have to write a book to truly do the Bible and you justice. Also, I urgently remind you that the choice is yours to accept or deny the truth (John 14:6). No one is assured today or tomorrow, so please see the urgency in making a decision.

Thanks for reading, and God Bless (Romans 10:9-10, 13)

The Human whereby Jehovah God sent Himself into the world is the Son of God. The Lord frequently says that the Father sent Him, and that He was sent by the Father (as in Matt 10:40)(15:24) (John 3:17, 34) (5:23,24,36-38) ( 6:29,39,40,44,57) (7:16,18,28,29) (8:16,18,29,42) (9:4); and this He says, because "being sent into the world" means to descend and come among men.This was done by means of a human which He took on through the virgin Mary.

Moreover, the Human is actually the Son of God, because it was conceived from Jehovah God as its Father (according to Luke 1:32,35). He is called "the Son of God," "the Son of man," and "the son of Mary;" "the Son of God" means Jehovah God in His Human."The Son of man" the Lord in respect to the Word.While "the son of Mary" means strictly the human He took on. Jehovah God has always been a Divine Human.

Jehovah God is one,in Person and in Essence,not three persons,one Person

Harry

For those who are willing to learn.

Genesis 1: 1. In the beginning God created the heavens (coelum) and the earth. The most ancient time is called "the beginning."

By the prophets it is in various places called the "days of old (antiquitatis)" and also the "days of eternity."

The "beginning" also involves the first period when man is being regenerated, for he is then born anew, and receives life.

Regeneration itself is therefore called a "new creation" of man. The expressions to "create," to "form," to "make," in almost all parts of the prophetic writings signify to regenerate, yet with a difference in the signification.

As in Isaiah
Every one that is called by My name, I have created him for My glory, I have formed him, yea, I have made him (Isaiah 43:7).

And therefore the Lord is called the "Redeemer," the "Former from the womb," the "Maker," and also the "Creator;" as in the same Prophet:--

I am Jehovah your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King (Isaiah 43:15).

In David
The people that is created shall praise Jah (Ps. 102:18).

Again
Thou sendest forth Thy spirit, they are created, and Thou renewest the faces of the ground (Ps. 104:30).

That "heaven" signifies the internal man; and "earth" the external man before regeneration.

Genesis 1:2. And the earth was a void and emptiness, and darkness was upon the faces of the deep (abyssi); and the Spirit of God was brooding upon the faces of the waters.

Before his regeneration, man is called the "earth void and empty," and also the "ground" wherein nothing of good and truth has been sown; "void" denotes where there is nothing of good, and "empty" where there is nothing of truth.

Hence comes "thick darkness," that is, stupidity, and an ignorance of all things belonging to faith in the Lord, and consequently of all things belonging to spiritual and heavenly life.

Such a man is described by the Lord through Jeremiah:
My people is stupid, they have not known Me; they are foolish sons, and are not intelligent; they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and lo a void and emptiness, and the heavens, and they had no light (Jeremiah 4:22,23).

The "faces of the deep"’ are the cupidities of the unregenerate man, and the falsities thence originating, of which he wholly consists, and in which he is totally immersed.

In this state, having no light, he is like a "deep," or something obscure and confused. Such persons are also called "deeps," and "depths of the sea," in many parts of the Word, which are "dried up," or "wasted," before man is regenerated.

As in Isaiah
Awake as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art not thou it that drieth up the sea, the waters of the great deep, that maketh the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over? Therefore the redeemed of Jehovah shall return (Isaiah 51:9-11).

Such a man also, when seen from heaven, appears like a black mass, destitute of vitality. The same expressions likewise in general involve the vastation of man, frequently spoken of by the Prophets, which precedes regeneration; for before man can know what is true, and be affected with what is good, there must be a removal of such things as hinder and resist their admission; thus the old man must needs die, before the new man can be conceived.

By the "Spirit of God" is meant the Lord‘s mercy, which is said to "move," or "brood," as a hen broods over her eggs.

The things over which it moves are such as the Lord has hidden and treasured up in man, which in the Word throughout are called remains or a remnant, consisting of the knowledges of the true and of the good, which never come into light or day, until external things are vastated. These knowledges are here called "the faces of the waters."

Harry

Jehovah God the Father was the one whom descended a became Man.
The trinity which the present Christian church has embraced and brought into its faith, is that God the Father begat a Son from eternity,and that the Holy Spirit then went forth from both,and that each one of Himself is a God.
Human minds can conceive of this trinity only as a triarchy, like the government of three kings in one kingdom, or of three generals over one army,or of three masters in one household, all possessing an equal power.

From this what but destruction could ensue?Or if one wishes to figure or shadow forth this triarchy before his mind's sight, and at the same time the unity of its members, he can present it to contemplation only as a god with three heads on one body, or as three bodies under one head.

In such a monstrous image must the trinity appear to those who believe that there are three Divine persons each by Himself God, and who join these into one God, but deny that God, because He is one, is therefore one person.

That a Son of God begotten from eternity descended and assumed a Human may be compared to the fables of the ancients, that human souls created at the beginning of the world enter into bodies and become men; also to the absurd notion that the soul of one person passes into another, as many in the Jewish church believed.

For example, that the soul of Elijah would pass into the body of John the Baptist, and that David would return into his own or into some other man's body, and rule over Israel and Judah, because it is said in Ezekiel:
I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even My servant David; and he shall be their shepherd and I Jehovah will be to them as God, and David a prince among them (34:23,24)

Jehovah God meant Himself when He said in (Ezekiel 34:23,24),He would set up one shepherd over them. He was the one Shepherd under the name Jesus Christ in a Human Form. The Human Form Jehovah God put on was the Son of God.

The saying of Jesus:
Jesus said: "I am come from God" (John 8:42).

"The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he seeth the Father do". (John 5:19)

At the Lord's baptism a voice from heaven was heard to say: "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." ("Matt. 3:17)

The Lord also said: "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28).

"No man cometh unto the Father but by Me." (John 14:6) On the cross Jesus said: "Father, forgive them ..." (Luke 23:34), and "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" (Matt. 27:46)

Also, after the resurrection, the Lord said to the disciples, "Teach all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19) In this last passage,not only does it seem that the Father and the Son are distinct, but also that there is yet a third Divine Person or Being, the Holy Spirit.

If we were to consult only such passages as these, and ignore all the others that seem to conflict with them, we might come to the conclusion that God is in three Persons. This is extremely puzzling to anyone of a reflective turn of mind, because his common sense tells him that there simply cannot be three Divine Persons, or three Divine Beings because this is the same as saying that there can be three Infinities of three Gods. The task of uniting three distinct Divinities into one God is a forlornly hopeless task.

Harry