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I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me

B

bible truth

Active Member
may said:
And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. john 10;16 ok then , here are the other sheep not part of the little flock .
(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands............. its all happening in the Lords day . we have been in the Lords day since 1914 and the gathering of the great crowd goes on . these other sheep will not be going to heaven like the little flock are going to heaven . but they listen to Jesus voice the same way that the little flock listen to Jesus voice . yes these other sheep are a great crowd indeed from all nations , and they are giving glory to the most high Jehovah and his son Jesus christ ,because Jesus has been given great aurthority matthew 28;19-20 daniel 7;13-14
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Thank you for expounding the Scriptures according to your discernment. Since you are from the Jehovah Witness Faith, I'm interested in your interpretation of the other sheep. I believe the other sheep in this context are the Gentiles. I believe "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" say the other sheep is the LDS organization. Who are the other sheep that Jesus is speaking of? Are you saying the other sheep consists of all nations as in Gentiles? - BT
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Well, it's not rocket science, I'll tell you that![/color][/font]

God lifts us to new heights; Satan lowers us to unimaginable depths. Satan doesn't call upon us to glorify God, to look to His Son for salvation and to show our love for Him by treating our fellow men -- even those whom we perceive to be our enemies -- with contempt. If we are listening to God, and truly hearing what He is saying to us, our lives will reflect the message that is embedded in our hearts. It's not at all hard to know who has internalized this message. As He said himself, "By this shall men know that ye are my disciples: that ye have love one to another."
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2 Corinthians 11

Paul and the False Apostles

1I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (Whole Chapter)
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
bible truth said:
I believe the other sheep in this context are the Gentiles.
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And that would be quite impossible, as I have already explained. The Gentiles never did hear Jesus' voice. To begin with, His mission was not to teach His gospel to them. He was very clear in stating that point.

I believe "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" say the other sheep is the LDS organization.
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Huh? No we don't. Where on earth did you get that idea?
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
bible truth said:
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
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Paul was one smart cookie! He knew what was happening, and tried to warn against it. Unfortunately, people didn't listen and his prophesies came to pass.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
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How true.
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Katzpur said:
And that would be quite impossible, as I have already explained. The Gentiles never did hear Jesus' voice. To begin with, His mission was not to teach His gospel to them. He was very clear in stating that point.[/font]

Huh? No we don't. Where on earth did you get that idea?
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About 12 years ago, the Mormon missionaries who came to my house used this verse (other sheep) to show that God foretold about the LDS organization. Do you know if the Bible speaks of the LDS organization?
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bible truth
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Katzpur said:
Paul was one smart cookie! He knew what was happening, and tried to warn against it. Unfortunately, people didn't listen and his prophesies came to pass. How true.
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Hi Katzpur,

I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation and application of Galatians chapter 1. The Apostle Paul was not addressing a future prophesy, but rather Paul was addressing the Judaizer's distortion of the gospel of grace, mixing it with the requirements of the law (works) within the doctrine of justification. However, the anathema (eternally condemned) applies throughout all redemptive history for those who add to the finished work of the cross. - BT
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
bible truth said:
About 12 years ago, the Mormon missionaries who came to my house used this verse (other sheep) to show that God foretold about the LDS organization.
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The LDS missionaries regularly use that verse, but not in reference to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The "other sheep," as I already stated, would have had to be a part of the house of Israel, but not living in the Holy Land. Jesus' personal mission was solely to the lost sheep of the house of Israel -- not to the Gentiles. He commissioned His Apostles to spread the gospel to the Gentiles, and it was through them that those outside of the house of Israel heard the gospel message. He did not minister personally to the Gentiles. Since you believe the Bible is a complete record of His ministr y, where does it say He did?

Do you know if the Bible speaks of the LDS organization?
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It doesn't speak of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as an organization, but there are several passages that we believe prophesy of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and of how it goes hand in hand with the Bible. Clearly you would interpret them differently.
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Katzpur said:
[/font]

It doesn't speak of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as an organization, but there are several passages that we believe prophesy of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and of how it goes hand in hand with the Bible. Clearly you would interpret them differently.
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Hi Katzpur,
Do you mind sharing those several Bible passages?
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Katzpur said:
The LDS missionaries regularly use that verse, but not in reference to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The "other sheep," as I already stated, would have had to be a part of the house of Israel, but not living in the Holy Land. Jesus' personal mission was solely to the lost sheep of the house of Israel -- not to the Gentiles. He commissioned His Apostles to spread the gospel to the Gentiles, and it was through them that those outside of the house of Israel heard the gospel message. He did not minister personally to the Gentiles. Since you believe the Bible is a complete record of His ministr y, where does it say He did?[/font]
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Christ came to save His people from their sins consisting of the elect of God (chosen Gentiles and Jews). The ministry of Jesus Christ is on-going through eternity.

Luke 19:10:
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Isaiah 65

"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'
Ezekiel 11:19:
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
John 17

Jesus Prays for All Believers

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Matthew 22 - The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Matthew 12 - Jesus' Mother and Brothers

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
bible truth said:
Christ came to save His people from their sins consisting of the elect of God (chosen Gentiles and Jews). The ministry of Jesus Christ is on-going through eternity.
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His message of redemption was for all people in all time. However, in Matthew 15:24, He explicitly stated, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He did not personally preach to anyone outside of the Jewish community, but left that responsibility to His Apostles.
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Katzpur said:
His message of redemption was for all people in all time. However, in Matthew 15:24, He explicitly [/color]stated, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.[/font]" He did not personally preach to anyone outside of the Jewish community, but left that responsibility to His Apostles.
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Hey Katzpur,

Here are additional questions to your response. If Jesus' ministry was to save His people from their sins, did He accomplish his mission?

1. Who are His people that He came to save?
2. Did He save each one of His people?

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
bible truth said:
Hey Katzpur,

Here are additional questions to your response. If Jesus' ministry was to save His people from their sins, did He accomplish his mission?
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Absolutely.

1. Who are His people that He came to save?
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He came to grant immortality to literally all of humankind; in other words, all (both the good and the wicked) will someday be resurrected. In addition, He came to grant eternal life in His Father's presence to all who would have faith in Him, repent of their sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost and endure to the end.

2. Did He save each one of His people?
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Yes, as I have explained in my previous answer.
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Absolutely.[/font]

He came to grant immortality to literally all of humankind; in other words, all (both the good and the wicked) will someday be resurrected. In addition, He came to grant eternal life in His Father's presence to all who would have faith in Him, repent of their sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost and endure to the end.

Yes, as I have explained in my previous answer.
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Therefore, you believe in the elect of God or chosen ones too?
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Define "elect."
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The elect are those chosen before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight and to be adopted as his sons. - BT

Ephesians 1
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

1. Matthew 24:22
If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
2. Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.
3. Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
4. Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
5. Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.
6. Mark 13:27
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
7. Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
8. Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
9. Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
10.1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
11.2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
12.Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—
13.1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,

 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Quote:
1. Who are His people that He came to save?
Katzpur said:
Absolutely.[/font]

He came to grant immortality to literally all of humankind; in other words, all (both the good and the wicked) will someday be resurrected. In addition, He came to grant eternal life in His Father's presence to all who would have faith in Him, repent of their sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost and endure to the end.
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Hi Katzpur,

I see myself as one of the wicked, totally depraved, sinful, and evil human beings Christ came to save. Who are the good that He came to save? - BT
 
B

bible truth

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Absolutely.[/font]

He came to grant immortality to literally all of humankind; in other words, all (both the good and the wicked) will someday be resurrected. In addition, He came to grant eternal life in His Father's presence to all who would have faith in Him, repent of their sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost and endure to the end.

.
Click to expand...

Hey Katzpur,

I’m puzzled by your post about the good and the wicked. Jesus called his disciples wicked. He also said only God was good. Also, in the Old and New Testament, God states that no one is righteous or seeks God. Jesus also tells us to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Since I consider myself wicked, evil, totally depraved, unrighteous, and not perfect, how can I be one of the good ones? All I have to offer to God for salvation are my numerous sins. In "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" official theology, where will I end up? - BT

Matthew 7:11

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Matthew 19

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Matthew 5:48

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Romans 3 - No One is Righteous

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
bible truth said:
Thank you for expounding the Scriptures according to your discernment. Since you are from the Jehovah Witness Faith, I'm interested in your interpretation of the other sheep. I believe the other sheep in this context are the Gentiles. I believe "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" say the other sheep is the LDS organization. Who are the other sheep that Jesus is speaking of? Are you saying the other sheep consists of all nations as in Gentiles? - BT
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the other sheep are those ones who are not going to heaven . the ones going to heaven are a little flock of 144,000 and they are from all nations including Jews and gentiles starting with the early christians . but the other sheep are a great crowd without a number. the NUMBER of 144,000 is predetermined. but the individuals are not . they may have been chosen but they may have made the choice to not endure as a christian , but the number that will go to heaven has been decided by God. The other sheep have a hope to inherit everlasting life on a paradise earth matthew 5;5 .and they also are from ALL nations as revelation 7;9-10 shows, and the gathering of these other sheep goes on . and they are all waving their palm branches to welcome Jesus as Gods chosen king . they lisen to Jesus just as the ones who are going to heaven listen to Jesus . its all happening in the Lords day . the book of revelation is being revealed and the understanding is being revealed in these the last days.Daniel 12;4 at one time many years ago the understanding was a bit cloudy, and Gods people did not have the full understanding ,but now it is enlightenment indeed. the thought many years ago was that all people were going to heaven. but now it has been revealed that the gathering of a great crowd will inherit the earth. the book of revelation has been happening to Gods people , and since 1914 we have been in the Lords day . its all happening and this great crowd will get through the great tribulation. they are all listening to Jesus voice. and Jesus is working through his faithful class of people spoken of in matthew 24;45-47 yes faithfulness leads to great blessings especially in the time of the end .
 
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