Prayer/God cures cancer?

Jaymes said:

Even if the doctors didn't say anything. People that knew John Doe would call the press. "Holy crap, John Doe can see! He was blind since birth! Magic!"

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Highly doubtful most people, at least in Australia respect other peoples privacy though the people that knew him would probally tell others. Things like this have been happening all over the world for centuries yet still people think, "oh its a hoax". BTW a lot of miricles that have happened in the past have been written into "tracts" (kind of like a pamphlet).

And to Pandas comment, true sometimes they cannot be proven and yes sometimes there are those that do it for money, however has the world seriously got to the point where they don't believe anyone?

Mike182 said:

when i was a Christian i attended an evangelical church

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Why do you think this only happens in an evangelical church?

And to Pandas comment, true sometimes they cannot be proven and yes sometimes there are those that do it for money, however has the world seriously got to the point where they don't believe anyone?

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When people make extraordinary claims they need to back it up with solid evidence. If I told you I could fly I would hope that you would demand proof before believing me.

Harvster said:

Highly doubtful most people, at least in Australia respect other peoples privacy though the people that knew him would probally tell others. Things like this have been happening all over the world for centuries yet still people think, "oh its a hoax".

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Quite possibly because it more than often is. If you can provide me one example of a scientifically verified occurrence of someone being able to see after being born blind, hearing after being born deaf, magically regrowing a limb, etc, I will be satisfied.

I doubt such evidence will be produced, however.

Booko said:

I know of people who have been cured of diseases the allopathic medical profession has declared "incurable" but I think that's rather not the point.

How would anyone quantitatively measure the effect of prayer on one individual with a disease, anyway? There are far too many other factors.

Even looked at in larger groups, there would be factors that have to be accounted for (access to healthcare, emotional well-being, family and community support, etc.)

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The effects of prayer should [can] be readily measurable in partitcular where prayer maybe focused on some specific purpose such as healing the afflicted Victor J. Stenger, in God, The Failed Hypothesis, How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=16569567

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.

* Benson H,
* Dusek JA,
* Sherwood JB,
* Lam P,
* Bethea CF,
* Carpenter W,
* Levitsky S,
* Hill PC,
* Clem DW Jr,
* Jain MK,
* Drumel D,
* Kopecky SL,
* Mueller PS,
* Marek D,
* Rollins S,
* Hibberd PL.

Mind/Body Medical Institute, Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. METHODS: Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality. RESULTS: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups. CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

PMID: 16569567 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Let me repeat the conclusion ofg what can be scientifically measured in religion.

The Seeker said:

When people make extraordinary claims they need to back it up with solid evidence. If I told you I could fly I would hope that you would demand proof before believing me.

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First I suppose I would ask if you had a pilots licence, then if not then yes I would ask for proof. I understand where you are coming from its hard to believe extraordinary claims and I would be on your side of the boat if I had not seen miricles take place.

Jaymes said:

Quite possibly because it more than often is. If you can provide me one example of a scientifically verified occurrence of someone being able to see after being born blind, hearing after being born deaf, magically regrowing a limb, etc, I will be satisfied.

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Jaymes said:

I doubt such evidence will be produced, however.

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There probally is evidence out there somewhere, I do know of a pastor that is trying to publish a book with verified mircles including the doctors reports as evidence, but am unsure on when it is being published.

http://www.templeton.org/newsroom/press_releases/060407step.html

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP)

The Largest Study of Third-Party Remote Intercessory Prayer Suggests
Prayer Not Effective in Reducing Complications Following Heart Surgery

Study Manuscript

Press Release
Official Statement from the John Templeton Foundation

The John Templeton Foundation was the major funder of the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP). This project applied a large-scale controlled randomized research model to contribute to a growing number of scientific studies about prayer. Previous studies had attracted widespread public attention and discussion due to claims of positive health outcomes for distant intercessory prayer in which patients were unaware of being prayed for in the context of a research study.

Analysts, however, had pointed to methodological weaknesses calling these results into question. In view of both the empirical uncertainties and the potential significance of a non-null result, the Foundation's advisory board advocated that substantial resources be put forth in order to advance methodological rigor in the design and execution of a new "blue ribbon standard" study. The results of the STEP project document the results of this experimental effort in a peer review journal.

The Foundation supports scientific rigor in all of its research-sponsorship endeavors and fully supports the findings as an example of the value of employing rigorous methodology in research on spiritual topics. Issues relating to the interpretation of the findings are discussed in an overview document which has been posted on this website since October 2002:
www.templeton.org/pdfs/articles/Spirituality_and_Well_Being_Programs.pdf

The Foundation encourages journalists and other interested persons to consider the various interpretive issues in depth. Prayer research is a fascinating topic and may well continue in additional modes to that presented as the outcome of the STEP project. However, the null results obtained by the methodologically rigorous STEP experiment appear to provide a clear and definitive contrasting result to an earlier published finding (Byrd study) of a positive effect for patient-blind distant intercessory prayer in a prayer experiment involving recovery of patients in a cardiac care unit.* Result: The STEP project did not confirm these findings.

* Note: The Byrd study also involved randomization to receive or not receive patient-blinded distant intercessory prayer.

Harvster said:

There probally is evidence out there somewhere, I do know of a pastor that is trying to publish a book with verified mircles including the doctors reports as evidence, but am unsure on when it is being published.

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Does this pastor have a name?

Jaymes said:

Does this pastor have a name?

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Unless it is a scientific study that the "pastor" publishes, it really doesn't matter what his name is

See my two preceding posts

Harvster said:

Why do you think this only happens in an evangelical church?

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because i only have experience of an evangelical church, i can only speak of an evangelical church... i don't know if members of other churches claim events or 'miralces' like this or not

The human body is a remarkable. If a person has nothing to live for then the person will die, if a person has a will to live then the body will live. Like the women who touches Jesus robe, she was healed because of her faith; her faith that this person holds the power to heal and make her whole. This works with everyday life there are some that can heal them some cannot but it is all by faith it is the life force of all things. it is all around, it is through us, it penetrates us and it binds us. Without faith we would not be able to move a single atom of our bodies. Yes the body is remarkable but it is the life force that gives us the strength to push forward in life.

Bright-ness' Shadow said:

Unless it is a scientific study that the "pastor" publishes, it really doesn't matter what his name is

See my two preceding posts

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I'd just like to establish that this hypothetical pastor actually exists before trying to look into any cases where people have magically regrown limbs, regained their sight/hearing, etc.

Harvster said:

I've heard of people who have had limbs grow back through prayer. Likewise deaf people (from birth) able to hear again, blind see etc.

I think it comes down to what The Seeker said, until you have seen it you can't believe it.

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I think the key word here is 'heard'. A number of things are lost or contorted through verbal translation.

PHOTOTAKER said:

Without faith we would not be able to move a single atom of our bodies.

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I find I don't need a bit of faith for the neurons in my body to fire, for white and red blood cells to function, for gas exchange to occur in my lungs, etc.

I'm sure he does have a name but for the life of me I can't remember it. I know he is in the USA.
.:EDIT:.

Jaymes said:

I'd just like to establish that this hypothetical pastor actually exists before trying to look into any cases where people have magically regrown limbs, regained their sight/hearing, etc.

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I have a habit of of not lieing in debates, his name is Frank Dimazio (sp).

Bright-ness' Shadow said:

Unless it is a scientific study that the "pastor" publishes, it really doesn't matter what his name is

See my two preceding posts

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This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my first couple of posts, everything has to have a scientific study done on it, hence why no one comes forward.

I all for science but I actually think its disgusting that the sceinific community thinks that they can take peoples beliefs and tear them apart just to come to the conclusion that what they believe dosesn't work because they can't find an explanation for it. I know if I was God I would of made sure that prayer didn't work in the above "studys". Then again I suppose thats why I'm not.

Harvster said:

I'm sure he does have a name but for the life of me I can't remember it. I know he is in the USA.
.:EDIT:.

I have a habit of of not lieing in debates, his name is Frank Dimazio (sp).

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I'll have to read up about him.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my first couple of posts, everything has to have a scientific study done on it, hence why no one comes forward.

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What exactly do you think "scientific study" involves? They're not going to tie them down and poke them with a billion needles. In the case of someone that had been blind, the only thing that would need to be done to verify it would be to get an eye doctor to check the eye to see that no medical doctor had performed a procedure on it. Same for someone that was previously deaf.

I all for science but I actually think its disgusting that the sceinific community thinks that they can take peoples beliefs and tear them apart just to come to the conclusion that what they believe dosesn't work because they can't find an explanation for it.

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If you think science is just about ripping apart religion, you need to actually study science.

Jaymes said:

What exactly do you think "scientific study" involves? They're not going to tie them down and poke them with a billion needles. In the case of someone that had been blind, the only thing that would need to be done to verify it would be to get an eye doctor to check the eye to see that no medical doctor had performed a procedure on it. Same for someone that was previously deaf.

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LOL I know (I had starwars flash backs to Han Solo when you mentioned the needle thing), my point is that people, well maybe just me, couldn't be bothered going back as what more would the doctor do apart from document it and file it away.

If you think science is just about ripping apart religion, you need to actually study science.

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No, I know science isn't about that. The thing is prayer could never be explained or "revealed" in things like the above mentioned studies (mentioned by shadow) as there would be some variables that would have massive impacts on it.

Harvster said:

....

This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my first couple of posts, everything has to have a scientific study done on it, hence why no one comes forward.

I all for science but I actually think its disgusting that the sceinific community thinks that they can take peoples beliefs and tear them apart just to come to the conclusion that what they believe dosesn't work because they can't find an explanation for it. I know if I was God I would of made sure that prayer didn't work in the above "studys". Then again I suppose thats why I'm not.

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It is not that science can not find an explanation for religious faith but they have to see that the avenue of inquiry has likely possibility for "why" to become known.

Science does NOT set out to discredit articles of faith. It is an unfortunate (for the believer) by-product of seeking answers to better life.

If the studies had found that prayer was beneficial, the next step would have been to find out the circumstances of prayer that work. It would be the same purpose that science would study "god as creator", revelation, and prophesy.

If you had looked at the results, you would have found that there were positive outcomes for god's power if you want to maintain the myth of god. It was just that "his power" wasn't statistically significant.

Mike182 said:

because i only have experience of an evangelical church, i can only speak of an evangelical church... i don't know if members of other churches claim events or 'miralces' like this or not

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They do, and claims like this aren't limited to Christian churches.

This entire thread is a demonstration of why, though Baha'is don't deny that miracles (i.e. the highly improbable) can occur, they really are not useful as proof of anything, except possibly to the person(s) most directly involved.

All diseases can theoretically be cured, either by self-healing or healing by others. The body and the mind are not separated as many people believe. In fact your thoughts are energy that control and make your body. And yes your thoughts can repair your body as well. How come? Well your body is made of energy too. It is only on a low frequency. So low that you are able to see it and feel it. Energy influences other energies. When you get ill you have to get your body back to a higher energy frequency. This is all possible by thought. Some will call this prayer. Positive prayer and thoughts, visualizing thoughts, they all change energy frequencies. Positive thoughts and intentions makes the body feel better, repairing it. The force that is called thought, intentions, prayer is the force we all come from. Some will call this force God.

Mister_T said:

I'm personally more interested in those that pray for a cure for their cancer and don't get it.

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Yes. Why would God heal some and not others?