Three year olds with attitudes

Mister_T said:

Hmm...Being only 25, I really don't know what the good ol' days were like. I'm just stating my observaton and what I feel is a solution to the problem at hand.

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Hahahaha........That's right. The good ol' days to you are when Salt n' Pepa were selling their single "Push It" and people thought it was cool to wear their jeans rolled up and under their socks. Or is that too far back?

As far as this being something "new in the last decade or so" I don't agree with that. I just feel that in recent times it is more common.

Still luv you too though.

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OK. *throws playful slap on the shoulder* If it's more common in recent times, how do you figure? Based on what?




Peace,
Mystic

MysticSang'ha said:

Hahahaha........That's right. The good ol' days to you are when Salt n' Pepa were selling their single "Push It" and people thought it was cool to wear their jeans rolled up and under their socks. Or is that too far back?

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*raises hand* Yeah, that would be me. I'm 28, so I'm not sure if Mister T remembers that stuff or not...lol.

OK. *throws playful slap on the shoulder* If it's more common in recent times, how do you figure? Based on what?

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I think most people are basing it off the fact that they were never allowed to misbehave like that. Even in someone else's good ol' days, I don't think young children hitting their parents or calling them names was accepted. I'm not talking about teenagers or young-adults here. I know they've always been rebellious. I'm talking about little kids.

MysticSang'ha said:

Hahahaha........That's right. The good ol' days to you are when Salt n' Pepa were selling their single "Push It" and people thought it was cool to wear their jeans rolled up and under their socks. Or is that too far back?

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Close. Mine was more Billy Idol and hair metal.

MysticSang'ha said:

OK. *throws playful slap on the shoulder* If it's more common in recent times, how do you figure? Based on what?

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Based on my observation of how people of different ages interact with their parents. I hear young kids telling their parents "F-You" and other sorts of lovely things. And I hear it quite often.

I've heard people who were my age say such things when I was younger (and still do today), only I don't hear such behavior from that age group too often.

The majority of people my parents age would never anything close to what I hear, to their parents. It is a rare occasion if I do.

Danisty said:

*raises hand* Yeah, that would be me. I'm 28, so I'm not sure if Mister T remembers that stuff or not...lol.

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Remember it?

Heck, I had M.C. Hammer pants! An I wore them when I danced to "Can't Touch This" in my cassete player.

............I fear I may have revealed too much. :cover:

Mister_T said:

Remember it?

Heck, I had M.C. Hammer pants! An I wore them when I danced to "Can't Touch This" in my cassete player.

............I fear I may have revealed too much. :cover:

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Lol...it's hard to tell. Sometimes it seems like people only a couple of years younger than me have no recollection of the things that were so huge when I was growing up.

MysticSang'ha said:

I'm with daddyholland. We're talking about three-year-olds, who are going through enormous changes in their physiology, their steps toward autonomy, their perspectives on relationships, and language development. I just shake my head and chuckle a tad bit with the whole "my-parents-would-have-whacked-me-on-the-behind-if-I-acted-that-way" mindless diatribe. :areyoucra

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Bingo. This is a tough age to work with, make no mistake. It's one of the strange quirks of life that they will test you just to see where the boundaries are, some more so than others. Learning when to gently guide them in the right direction or bring the hammer down is an art, one not to be taken lightly.

The way children act is the way children have acted throughout time. I've heard things my grandmother and her siblings did when they had the opportunity, and it's amazing they weren't dead by the time they were 16! The only differences we notice from "back then" to "now" are a few things:

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Exactly. Doesn't mean we can just let the stuff go, though.

1) Children do not have the freedoms now than they did in years past. 20-30 years ago, I could take my bike out all day and not return until dinnertime. My mother talks of the same freedom. My grandmother.......same story. Nowadays, children are monitored by the minute. Do they ever have any breathing room for their own frustrations? My husband and I take this into account, and I wish others would, too. Ever since the whole phenomena of child-abduction stories beginning with Adam Walsh, children have not been able to take a bike ride to get their high-strung energies out of 'em. They are confined to a small playground with a group of parents staring at the whole lot.

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WOOHOO! You just earned some frubals for this alone. I couldn't have said it better myself. What's one key reason kids are not getting outside and around the neighborhood enough nowadays? Because we're so damn afraid to let them out the front door! All in the name of the exceedingly rare child abduction, ironically we're exposing kids to a much quieter yet far more widespread danger called obesity.

2) We have moved into a more individualistic society........and this doesn't necessarily mean, "ME FIRST", since rampant egoism has existed way before this generation. We're simply evolving as a culture away from the nuclear family, the definition of marriage is not so narrow anymore, and kids are also seeing their parents become more involved with careers, hobbies, and their OWN dreams. Kids do not see their parents staying with each other simply for the kids' sake, but watch as their parents seek active and loving relationships either with each other through counseling, or with someone new.

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Honestly? I think this is an unfortunate overreaction to the patriarchal days where you dared not disrespect your parents lest it cost you dearly. Now our society struggles with the other extreme: it might not cost you at all.

3) Children understand (and we should, too) that physical punishment isn't necessary to keep a child's respect. Spanking, I don't think, should be demonized.......but parents that don't spank shouldn't be labeled as "overly permissive." When parents point fingers at each other, the only thing that comes out of it is a bunch of noise that children hear, too, and they don't care much for that, either.

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Damn straight. A conscious decision to not use corporal punishment is not the same thing as spinelessness. Some parents have used very effective strategies that do not involve physical pain to get their points across.

You also bring up another good point: When parents heartily disagree with one another, they really really really need to settle their disagreements in a time and place where the kids can't hear them. This is vital. Children caught up in this fiasco are liable to either emotionally clam up or play one parent off of another, resulting in further chaos.

CHILDREN ACT UP!! I did it. You did it. Everyone did it. Whether our parents gave us a look, a smack, or a hug shouldn't sway this discussion. Kids are kids, and they always will be. They need lots of discipline - which for me translates into guidance and not punishment - and lots of love and compassion. Grandstanding about this so-called "lack of discipline" doesn't make anyone look better, nor does bragging about how you were raised. Every child is different, just like every couple, and every family as a whole. What works in one household and with one child will not always work for another.........even after time has passed since that very child has changed, too.

Meh - what do I know, anyway? I guess my hubbie and I will find out just how much we've screwed our kids up in 10 years or so if they're in prison or sobbing on a therapists couch.

Give parents a break. I've not heard of one set of parents who were perfect, so stop expecting us to be.

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You know what else? Today's parents by and large just don't have the kind of time they need.

Effective discipline is by and large proactive, in that parents who run the ship well tend to know their kids well, understand what makes them tick, and spend plenty of positive moments with them so that disciplinary moments won't be as sticky. That's a nice ideal to live up to, but the bottom line is that many parents don't have that kind of time. Some of them are out the door before 7 a.m. and home after 8 p.m., and they are able to spend only a small amount of time with their children, if any. It's a shame what's happening to our society in this regard--this drive for more and more economic privilege and freedom, which all too often comes at a dear price: time with the ones we love.

Peace,
Mystic

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And as I write this post, I am currently observing a ~4-year-old girl playing on some workout equipment as her parents attempt to jog. ...and OMG Mom just showed her how to use the damn thing...

RevOxley_501 said:

im just gonna show u guys how to fix the problem of bad children:

http://www.darklands.no/belts/2rowcon.jpg

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The picture of the belt isn't what hits me wrong here.

The highlighted portion of this post is. No offense, but to make the leap from "bad behavior" to "bad person" carries downright dangerous connotations. For if a child truly is "bad," what keeps one from using that belt as often as he or she wants?

Aqualung said:

No, it's not. I understand your point, but I think it's wrong. Is it so hard to believe that it's possible for somebody to disagree that you automatically assume I'm a retard? What this teaches is blind deference to authority, that actions are better than intentions, that lying is okay, and the ohter things I've mentioned.


The golden rule teaches that what I want is more important than what anybody else wants. How I want to be treated is more important than how you want me to treat you. It's the most self-centred theory ever.

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I don't assume you are a retard at all, aqualung. I was being playful. Lighten up.

I'm not going to bother trying to explain myself anymore. It's fine if you disagree.

I will say this, though----what "golden rule" did you learn? It doesn't sound like the one I know. Treating others as you would have them treat you is not selfish at all----it's empathetic. It's only by being able to put yourself in another's shoes that you will treat them kindly and with respect. Those who are truly self-centered are the ones who lack empathy, who are unable to say, "How would I feel if I was that person and I caused him pain?" The actual result of following the golden rule is unselfishness.

Peace...

Mister_T said:

I agree. But I do think we should teach them to have manners when dealing with people, even if we find them unpleasant (which I would classify as respectful behavior). I'd want my children to set an example.

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Good, then we are on the same page. Manners and civility =/= respect.

I'm not saying not to surround yourself with people who who you respect. My intent is to set a positive example. You and I have a different idea about what respect is. So I don't think we're going to get anywhere.

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Well, it was fun while it lasted.

Hope said:

I will say this, though----what "golden rule" did you learn?

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Treat others the way you want to be treated, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc.

If you look at it, all I'm doing to others is what I would want them to do to me. The only thing that matters is my wishes, and my desires. Nothing about the other person in there. It's totally egotistical to think that my wishes are best for everyone or desired by everyone. Being somewhat masochistic, I like being physically hurt (a la Fight Club), but I generally try not to pick fights with those around me. I know I would like it if people would start fisticuffs matches with me, but I have the decency to NOT treat others the way I want to be treated.

I am terribly sorry I assumed that when speaking of children this young it would be imlpied that is indeed the fault of the parent. Secondly I find it much better to teach children to give respect until the individual proves themselves unworthy rather than running around with the sense they are the only people who matter. As for the comment about me having children. I don't have my own but I am a nanny for a one year old and a three year old. The three year old gets out of line occasionaly but all it takes is a timeout and a talk and she is back on track. This only because her parents and I work very hard to teach her good values and how we should all conduct ourselves with grace and integrety. I apologize again if I did not make it obvious that this is a problem with parenting.

So I can see the last post.

I think many children are losing manners/etiquette - whatever you want to call it, way to behave etc! I do think children should be given freedom to express their own opinions and develop their own ideas to an extent (however youll find that whatever the child is like the parents are like!) especially when the parents are no good and the child is going down the "good" path!

I was smacked at as a child, never did me any harm! and it also meant mum could say "Dont do that or youll have a smack" great deterent! nowadays they just say dont do that to which the child replies "why?"

It is a difficult one! personally I would prob say some smacking wasnt out of the question if the child had repeatedly done something. However part of me wonders, as as I have got older, I have my own opinions and generally disagree with my mum quite a bit. But thats ok now I am 21 (well it isnt in her eyes "mum always right"! ), but why cant it be alright when the child is youngr, where is the boundary!

Its also hard as so many people have different ideas on what is right and what is wrong. I have a friend who readily swears in front of her kids - the kids now swear back! That has never been done in my family!

So how do you determine right from wrong?

Some cheekiness is cute in a kid, shows a sense of character. My 4yr old cousin had a great one the other day when she forgot to say pls after asking for some choc from my aunt. My aunt said "Tonia, what do you say?" to which she replied, "Please, DARLING (in an sarcastic voice - shes 4!) may I have some choc?" I mean the child is 4! where on earth she came up with that I dont know, but we all laughed!!!

laws28186 said:

I think many children are losing manners/etiquette - whatever you want to call it, way to behave etc! I do think children should be given freedom to express their own opinions and develop their own ideas to an extent (however youll find that whatever the child is like the parents are like!) especially when the parents are no good and the child is going down the "good" path!

I was smacked at as a child, never did me any harm! and it also meant mum could say "Dont do that or youll have a smack" great deterent! nowadays they just say dont do that to which the child replies "why?"

It is a difficult one! personally I would prob say some smacking wasnt out of the question if the child had repeatedly done something. However part of me wonders, as as I have got older, I have my own opinions and generally disagree with my mum quite a bit. But thats ok now I am 21 (well it isnt in her eyes "mum always right"! ), but why cant it be alright when the child is youngr, where is the boundary!

Its also hard as so many people have different ideas on what is right and what is wrong. I have a friend who readily swears in front of her kids - the kids now swear back! That has never been done in my family!

So how do you determine right from wrong?

Some cheekiness is cute in a kid, shows a sense of character. My 4yr old cousin had a great one the other day when she forgot to say pls after asking for some choc from my aunt. My aunt said "Tonia, what do you say?" to which she replied, "Please, DARLING (in an sarcastic voice - shes 4!) may I have some choc?" I mean the child is 4! where on earth she came up with that I dont know, but we all laughed!!!

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I agree with you here , for the most part... I know everyone has an opinion and they are not all alike , but there is a right and wrong way about letting your opinion being known...a child should not be allowed to yell and curse their parents out "just to let them know an opinion" . when one of the kids makes me mad here ,I will tell them you ticked me off so you need to go away for a little while(by go away I mean your room or your aunts or g'ma's house...) after we have calmed down we can discuss it like human beings and not wild beasts yelling ... I hate hearing a kid curse,my mom cursed in front of me and my brothers when we were growing up and still WE knew better than to do it just because she did...

btw , that is how my name is spelled like your cousins...Tonia Renee...

Yeah I agree Laws. There is to be a balance. You know a kid is still a kid, and I don't have to come down on them like the wrath of God everytime they get out of line. Any good parent will know when the child has crossed the line from having a little humor, to having a smart mouth. When I was raising my siblings, I allowed them the ability to express their feelings. If their feelings were hurt by something I didn't know I said, I allowed them the freedom to say it. I apologised as well. A kid big or small can express themselves to me as long as it's done respectfully. I respect children and their person I expect no less than that in return. A parent have to draw the line for the child because the child doesn't know where to draw it or refuses to. If your three year old says the word '***' it might be cute given the context. On first time it is ok to simply tell the child that it's not a good word to use. Key to it is for the parent also to watch the curse words around the kids. Although my mom cursed in front of us, and we knew we had better not say that back to her or in her presence. That isn't the best way to go about it though.

Parents should set the example, but when all the good examples have been set, and all the talks been given, what would a parent do with a child if th parent does not believe in punishments? Some parents don't believe in any punishment at all physical of otherwise. So I want to know what do they do when the child repeatedly and openly disobeys them?

laws28186 said:

I think many children are losing manners/etiquette - whatever you want to call it, way to behave etc!

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I think it's just that the societally created yet arbitrary rules of appropriate behaviour are changing. It's not a quantitative difference so much as a qualitative difference.

I believe a number of people are quick to forget how they acted as a child them self, and now taking the easy route of pointing fingers at the new generation.

Aqualung said:

I think it's just that the societally created yet arbitrary rules of appropriate behaviour are changing. It's not a quantitative difference so much as a qualitative difference.

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So basically you think it's acceptable for children to hit their parents and call them names? :areyoucra

Jistyr said:

I believe a number of people are quick to forget how they acted as a child them self, and now taking the easy route of pointing fingers at the new generation.

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I know I wasn't a perfect child. Hell, there's no such thing. I never hit my parents (or anyone else for that matter) or called them names though. Incidentally, for all those people who think being spanked automatically makes children violent, I was spanked as a child and I've never been in a physical confrontation in my whole life. I was spanked twice and my father made it such a miserable experience for me (emotionally) that I never did anything to warrant serious punishment again. I also have a good relationship with my parents so it's not as if they scared me or something. I'm not saying corporal punishment will work for every child, but people who make blanket statements about it really **** me off. Aside from that, the impression I'm getting from a few members here is that no manner of punishment should be used for bad behavior because bad behavior doesn't exist. :sarcastic

Ðanisty;810229 said:

So basically you think it's acceptable for children to hit their parents and call them names? :areyoucra

I know I wasn't a perfect child. Hell, there's no such thing. I never hit my parents (or anyone else for that matter) or called them names though. Incidentally, for all those people who think being spanked automatically makes children violent, I was spanked as a child and I've never been in a physical confrontation in my whole life. I was spanked twice and my father made it such a miserable experience for me (emotionally) that I never did anything to warrant serious punishment again. I also have a good relationship with my parents so it's not as if they scared me or something. I'm not saying corporal punishment will work for every child, but people who make blanket statements about it really **** me off. Aside from that, the impression I'm getting from a few members here is that no manner of punishment should be used for bad behavior because bad behavior doesn't exist. :sarcastic

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I echo what Danisty has said.

It has nothing to do with "forgetting" how we were as a child. On the contrary. The reason I criticize parenting today is I remember how I acted as a child and it wasn't anything like I see or hear today.

wicca_woman said:

I agree with you here , for the most part... I know everyone has an opinion and they are not all alike , but there is a right and wrong way about letting your opinion being known...a child should not be allowed to yell and curse their parents out "just to let them know an opinion" . when one of the kids makes me mad here ,I will tell them you ticked me off so you need to go away for a little while(by go away I mean your room or your aunts or g'ma's house...) after we have calmed down we can discuss it like human beings and not wild beasts yelling ... I hate hearing a kid curse,my mom cursed in front of me and my brothers when we were growing up and still WE knew better than to do it just because she did...

btw , that is how my name is spelled like your cousins...Tonia Renee...

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Oh yes! I wasnt saying it gives the child right to curse the parents! I would never have dreamed of doing that when I was a child - yet some children seem to find it perfectly acceptable nowadays - (Im strating to sound like my mother! )

My cousins name is actually Antonia, we shorten it to Tonia! Is that the same with you? or are you just Tonia?