Examining the evidence there is of God

CG Didymus said:

First of all I said that Protestants and Catholics "say" these things. They believe it is based on what the NT says. Here's something from Romans...

Romans 5:12-21
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. ..​

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OK, so I'm understanding that where we are is that we both agree that "original sin" isn't in the Bible, but it's rather a tool that many use to work their way through all this. Sounds good.

CG Didymus said:

...Then I said this...
So, even though Catholics and Protestants, like Mormons, have what Baha'is and others consider to be false beliefs, they still get some people to lead good, spiritual lives. Having the "correct" or "right" beliefs doesn't seem to matter. And this can be applied to the Baha'is as well. Who knows if all the teachings of the Baha'i Faith are true. But lots of Baha'is believe they are true and apply them and become better and more spiritual people....

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"Truth" is kind of a funny thing that can go on and on. One of my basic assumptions is that the words of the manifestations are true. At the same time there is a lot I don't understand and there is much that appears to be in contradiction. I've come to realize that not everything is what it appears to be, and we need to study. Not everything is easy to understand right off either. More study..

CG Didymus said:

... Like I mentioned earllier, I don't believe progressive revelation is true...

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My brother (a Presbyterian minister) said that, he said it was God doing a strip tease. That was a bit of a surprise to me because my understanding of progressive revelation was something I learned when I was a Presbyterian in Sunday school. Maybe it's a doctrinal thing, and impasse caused by differences in word preference and that I'm not understanding what your beliefs are

Pardon me because I'm a bit lost here. Are u a Christian? What are your beliefs?.

CG Didymus said:

...One reason is that it makes Adam a manifestation of God, a perfectly polished mirror reflecting God? Let me ask you, what you asked me... Where in the Bible or NT does it make Adam a manifestation? ...

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The only place where the word "manifestation" shows up in the Modern English Version of the entire Bible is in First Corinthians:

My take is that the idea of a "manifestation" is not a core belief.

TransmutingSoul said:

The Spirtual world is timeless.

"For the Kingdom of God is sanctified (or free) from time and place; it is another world and another universe............" ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v1, p. 205-206

"... For the Kingdom is not a material location but is sanctified above time and place. It is a spiritual realm, a divine world, and it is the seat of the sovereignty of the almighty Lord. It is exalted above bodies and all that is corporeal, and it is freed and sanctified from the idle conjectures of men....."

Regards Tony

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I believe the spirit exists in and out of time. In Heaven there is no time. Out of the body from what I have heard, time is less relevant.

muhammad_isa said:

@TransmutingSoul I suppose it depends on your definition of "some time" .. what is your understanding of eternity? Is it "timeless"?
If so, then what does eternity relate to, if not time?

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I believe eternal life means there is no death from aging so time is less relevant even though it still exists.

TagliatelliMonster said:

You could understand it if you would study it.
Exactly the point.



You are replying to a post that stated there are 30.000 denominations of christianity alone.
Ask 10 physicists from around the world about relativity and you'll get 10x the same answer.

Ask 10 christians from around the world about god and you'll 10 different answers.





See this is the difference....... To study physics, means to study phenomenon that actually occur in reality. To test it against reality. You study actual real things that are independent of human minds and opinions.

To study religion however, is to literally read ancient myths and try and "interpret" them. What you study there is literally ONLY humans minds / claims / anecdotes and opinions.

There is nothing in reality to validate it against.

If my understanding of physics results in a prediction that dropping a rock in a vacuum on earth will make it accelerate at 7.8 meters per second per second, I will be demonstrably wrong.

There is nothing however in religion that is "demonstrably wrong". Because all of it is just to believe or not to believe, with no way of verifying it independently.

That's why there are 30.000 incarnations of christianity, but only one model of relativity.

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I believe there was only one Einstein and only one Jesus. Perhaps the scientific community roots out anyone who doesn't agree with its understanding of relativity and then came string theory.

Pete in Panama said:

Pardon me because I'm a bit lost here. Are u a Christian? What are your beliefs?.

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When I was young I trusted what religious people told me. Baha'is, Christians, then other Christians that said those other Christians were wrong. Then new-age people. After a while, I began not to trust any of them. So, I know a little about Christianity and the Baha'i Faith, but I don't believe enough in either one to become one. And I do, in a way, appreciate the differences of all the major religions as they are. I don't need to find a way to reconcile all of them with each other. But then I don't like the way some religions come across or just right out and say that they are the "only" true one. And, even though Baha'is don't think they are doing that and say they don't believe that it is how they come across to some of us here on the forum.

CG Didymus said:

When I was young I trusted what religious people told me. Baha'is, Christians, then other Christians that said those other Christians were wrong. Then new-age people. After a while, I began not to trust any of them. So, I know a little about Christianity and the Baha'i Faith, but I don't believe enough in either one to become one. And I do, in a way, appreciate the differences of all the major religions as they are. I don't need to find a way to reconcile all of them with each other. But then I don't like the way some religions come across or just right out and say that they are the "only" true one. And, even though Baha'is don't think they are doing that and say they don't believe that it is how they come across to some of us here on the forum.

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So what I'm getting is that there are a lot of things you don't accept and I'm still at a loss to understand what you've accepted.

Off hand it sounds like your thing is complaining about others --that can't be right is it?

Pete in Panama said:

So what I'm getting is that there are a lot of things you don't accept and I'm still at a loss to understand what you've accepted.

Off hand it sounds like your thing is complaining about others --that can't be right is it?

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Complaining? Or questioning? Baha'is act as if they have all the answers. Do they? One question, or complaint, from several people here on the forum is... What are those answers? Lots of questions aren't answered and can't be answered. Which then becomes a complaint or criticism of the Baha'i Faith. Oh, and another complaint/criticism... Baha'is say they stand for peace and unity, yet they cannot be at peace and bring unity between themselves and the Atheists here on the forum. When Baha'i can accomplish that, I'll be impressed.

CG Didymus said:

Complaining? Or questioning? Baha'is act as if they have all the answers. Do they? .

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Great question. The Baha'is have a calendar they use for meetings w/ 19 months of 19 days each (leaving about 5 days for parties) and the months have new names. There is a month named questions. There is no month named answers.

My experience is that some folks got all the answers and others have lots of questions. The ones w/ all the answers never learn anything and the ones w/ questions come up w/ more questions w/ every answer they find.

CG Didymus said:

...Baha'is say they stand for peace and unity, yet they cannot be at peace and bring unity between themselves and the Atheists here on the forum. When Baha'i can accomplish that, I'll be impressed.

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Please understand that there are LOTS'n'LOTS of Baha'is who have a profound desire for unity, for peace, doing right and good, searching for truth, for science --all core teachings of the Prophet founder and they have no ability/desire/need for a God. Many of these are former Buddhists, others are in former communist areas.

There's no problem there. Where I personally have a problem is w/ those who have decided to go to war w/ me and focus on what they don't like.

Please, tell me what u like.

TransmutingSoul said:

This OP is for All people of all Faiths that believe in God.

What evidence do you have of God?

What logic and reasons have you used in determining the proofs and truths you subsequently embraced from the examination of that evidence?

The purpose of this OP needs to be embraced if you are to participate. This OP is about the presentation of the analytical use of logic and reason in faith based proofs.

If one wants to debate any stated logic and reason in this OP, then please do it in a respectful manner.

I will introduce this OP with what I see is the first line of evidence that there is of God and that is a Prophet. These persons who are known as a Prophet, Messenger or Manifestations are known in that manner as they make a claim they have a Message from God. By doing so, one can then logically conclude that as a result they are basically offering that they are proof of God and thus they are open to examination and proof of such a claim.

So how can I determine that what they offer is from God? This is where logic and reason needs to be employed. As each person is different, the logic and reasoning will also be different.

I will expand further on this line of evidence during the OP.

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Regards Tony

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I am unaware of objective evidence for God that I can use to demonstrate that God exists to other people.

Presumably, everything is evidence of God, but the difficulty remains in demonstrating it to be so to others that are open to rational review of the evidence.

Evidence.

I have to see it first by human observation.

So as the human I claim my god in science is rock.

No human can deny my reasoning it's absolute my experience.

I know I'm not God. As God is rock.

God is rock in law created it's heavens from its body. With infinite space.

I don't own infinite space.

I live within gods heavens.

As rock was once alive alight burning I know don't change any of its spirits. Gases. As both types came out of the same burning history alight gas or immaculate gas.

My owned correct you can't argue scientist teaching to my brother the theist.

Dan From Smithville said:

I am unaware of objective evidence for God that I can use to demonstrate that God exists to other people.

Presumably, everything is evidence of God, but the difficulty remains in demonstrating it to be so to others that are open to rational review of the evidence.

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To me it revolves around the idea of absolute truth, absolute good, etc.

There are many self proclaimed Atheists who will say that truth is absolute. That is, if one person makes a truthful scientific study, others can independently confirm that the research was truthful. The same w/ the falsification of data. Sure there are some who say that truth is completely specific to individual's minds and there is no absolute truth. Of course, that would mean that any scientist could falsify his data and simply "decide" it's true. That would make a sham out of all science.

Once we agree that truth is absolute, along w/ good/bad, right/wrong then God becomes superfluous. We simply love and honor all that's good, true, and right. We rejoice in these absolutes and dedicate our lives to them.

imho if that ain't God it'll do til the real God comes along.

Pete in Panama said:

To me it revolves around the idea of absolute truth, absolute good, etc.

There are many self proclaimed Atheists who will say that truth is absolute. That is, if one person makes a truthful scientific study, others can independently confirm that the research was truthful. The same w/ the falsification of data. Sure there are some who say that truth is completely specific to individual's minds and there is no absolute truth. Of course, that would mean that any scientist could falsify his data and simply "decide" it's true. That would make a sham out of all science.

Once we agree that truth is absolute, along w/ good/bad, right/wrong then God becomes superfluous. We simply love and honor all that's good, true, and right. We rejoice in these absolutes and dedicate our lives to them.

imho if that ain't God it'll do til the real God comes along.

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How do we determine absolute truth?

How do we know absolutely that something is immortal?

How do we know absolutely that something is a ghost and not something else?

How do we determine absolutely that something cannot be further reduced?

Other than deciding these things are correct based on our personal bias I don't know of anyway to "prove" them.

Dan From Smithville said:

How do we determine absolute truth?

How do we know absolutely that something is immortal?

How do we know absolutely that something is a ghost and not something else?

How do we determine absolutely that something cannot be further reduced?

Other than deciding these things are correct based on our personal bias I don't know of anyway to "prove" them.

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Destroyer mentality.

As I destroy I pretend I'm creating.

All of the advice as I destroy is destructive...as it hadn't existed in laws as my chosen status to destroy consume it.

As if I do holy mechanics but by cold conditions yet act as a sun never had as total consuming.

I know therefore if I don't stop consuming it becomes hot not cold.

As cold is a beginning in space law and cold is the end in law.

I'm breaking all laws in reacting.

Dan From Smithville said:

How do we determine absolute truth?

How do we know absolutely that something is immortal?

How do we know absolutely that something is a ghost and not something else?

How do we determine absolutely that something cannot be further reduced?

Other than deciding these things are correct based on our personal bias I don't know of anyway to "prove" them.

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Work w/ me on this, it's important. We're not together on concept and the result is chaos. Let's look at what an absolute truth is.

Mathematics. Let's see, 2+2=4 while I'm here at my desk, let's try the kitchen. OK, I'm back, I tried it in the kitchen and it was 4 there too. Now I'll google it, this is what I got:


huh, they got 4 also and I had nothing to do w/ it. Looks like the idea that 2+2=4 is universal and has nothing to do w/ my private thoughts. I will DECIDE that 2+2=4 is absolutely true and I will decide that whereever I am in the observable universe, at whatever time I need to calculate what 2+2 is, I'll plan on it being 4.

That's what an absolute truth is.

There are those who say that 2+2=4 is cultural and meaningless in other cultures, and to that I'll argue let's work out a common language & I bet we'll find we're in agreement. If someday I find that it's really 5 and all this time me and the folks I meet are also wrong then I can change. Until then 2+2=4 is absolutely true.

We can get into absolute morals too but first let's agree on what an absolute truth is. Are we together?

Two women and two men is four humans but two are women two are men.

rational experiences said:

Two women and two men is four humans but two are women two are men.

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Interesting. So?

Pete in Panama said:

Interesting. So?

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Numbers you placed for information yourself as a human. You say science is exact yet numbers you claim are powers.

It's why you falsely claimed a human owned powers by numbers

Pete in Panama said:

To me it revolves around the idea of absolute truth, absolute good, etc.

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Why bother with this kind of thinking? Are you a God?

There are many self proclaimed Atheists who will say that truth is absolute.

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Who is that, exactly? What is it they say that leads you to assert this?

That is, if one person makes a truthful scientific study, others can independently confirm that the research was truthful.

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Oh, truthful as conforming to facts and reason. That is what truth means, that which conforms to facts. You can't go to court and swear to tell the truth and lie, right?

The same w/ the falsification of data. Sure there are some who say that truth is completely specific to individual's minds and there is no absolute truth. Of course, that would mean that any scientist could falsify his data and simply "decide" it's true. That would make a sham out of all science.

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And the scientist would be fired and not be hired ever again. What you describe here is what religion does. It can make up anything and call it truth, even if it does not conform to facts and reality. Catholic preists can sexually abuse little boys and not be punished, nor lose their jobs. They might be transferred, that's it. the Church will even hide the evidence from the police, and that makes the crimes a conspiracy. That's religion at work.

Science has ethical standards, and scientists have to follow facts and the scientific method as part of their obligation as experts. Scientists seek truth, and they have a high standard that allows them a massive amount of success while religion continues lies and deception. Look at how many theists make clkaims of truth they can't show are true. No wonder rational minds don't accept any of it. No facts. No ethics. No evidence. No reason.

Once we agree that truth is absolute, along w/ good/bad, right/wrong then God becomes superfluous. We simply love and honor all that's good, true, and right. We rejoice in these absolutes and dedicate our lives to them.

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What use is the phrase "truth is absolute" if you already understand being good is better than being bad? And why do we need to agree? This illustrates how our brain evoved to be tribal, and seek a uniformity in group thinking. Humans are insecure and have anxiety, and we keep our minds busy seeking agreement among our tribe to soothe these problems. We are better off learning what the social sciences have learned about our brians, and why we have these negative feelings and seek solace from them. Then we can make better decisions about managing our minds, and not act robotically doing the same behavior over and over.

imho if that ain't God it'll do til the real God comes along.

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Real God? Is that the version that more people say exists? What makes them right?

I learnt.

Spiritual holy origin natural family were same sane DNA owner. Behaviours the same.

Natural family was two first humans then increased.

Man says one man theist other one maths numbers gods powers...scientist.

The tribe was family. Trade mutual as skill was involved as personal. I needed a plate you owned creating spoons.

We traded mutual by need not greed.

The exact human story is taught.

Man today in civilisation statuses a non stop liar and manipulator of information by organisation control of it.

Science a part of the situation. No man is God we already owned everything we needed. We did not need science. Your argument is always what about medical science?

We never owned body ailments machine invention caused once. Ignored. As you try to convince us that science is the greatest organisation of men.

You scientist impose your community organisation is holier and above all others. Just as you had before.

Unity in group religion was trying to give family back a legal mutual support. But guess what you scientist greedy rich men took it back over.

Those past learnt Rich humans fed the poor starving. Gave free medical services.

You organised Reinstated your unholy evil branch of the tree of good and evil.

A good tree supplies food it doesn't wood sacrifice combust like science in heavens knew it caused.

You knew and know today yet are prepared to cause it again. As your mentality is known.... you murdered tortured animals living for scientific wisdom.

Today your new laboratory is machines and our bio heavens.

You knowingly do evil to living bodies conscious expressed. You theme total destruction. You know understand it.

Does not make a scientist holy man.

In two rich man places today the same men manipulate the community.

Family knew it needed new mutual organising to save itself.

Pete in Panama said:

Work w/ me on this, it's important. We're not together on concept and the result is chaos. Let's look at what an absolute truth is.

Mathematics. Let's see, 2+2=4 while I'm here at my desk, let's try the kitchen. OK, I'm back, I tried it in the kitchen and it was 4 there too. Now I'll google it, this is what I got:

View attachment 71477
huh, they got 4 also and I had nothing to do w/ it. Looks like the idea that 2+2=4 is universal and has nothing to do w/ my private thoughts. I will DECIDE that 2+2=4 is absolutely true and I will decide that whereever I am in the observable universe, at whatever time I need to calculate what 2+2 is, I'll plan on it being 4.

That's what an absolute truth is.

There are those who say that 2+2=4 is cultural and meaningless in other cultures, and to that I'll argue let's work out a common language & I bet we'll find we're in agreement. If someday I find that it's really 5 and all this time me and the folks I meet are also wrong then I can change. Until then 2+2=4 is absolutely true.

We can get into absolute morals too but first let's agree on what an absolute truth is. Are we together?

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Mathematics has proof just as liquor does, but everything else is based either on faith or evidence. And neither is absolute.