When was "the Messiah" first mentioned in scripture?

River Sea said:

So Hashem programs us; is Hashem a programmer?

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Human intellect and the ability to have free will can be compared to a type of programming. I.e. there are elements of reality that have neither or only one.

For example, one of the definitions of A.I. is

River Sea said:

Can people have a relationship with Hashem?

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Sure. It would depend on what you see as a "relationaship."

dybmh said:

You're lifting up two verses in opposition to the entire rest of the story.

We were chosen for what? Persecution? Exile? Endless laws? Holocaust?

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Abraham and his descendants were chosen to be faithful to a monotheistic God. Because of their faith God did bestow "favor" upon the Israelites. Recall that Abrams previous religion from beyond the rivers was that of his father who worshiped “other Gods”.

dybmh said:

No. None of those other Jesus's fit. If we consider the Talmud accurate ( and I'm not sure why you would ), then Yeshu ( Jesus ) was a common name. And this seems to be supported by the verse in Matthew. There were multiple Jesus's.

Yes. And that's why it makes sense to consider that at the time of the composition of the gospels there were probably many stories of Jesus type figures, it's even possible multiple messianic preachers named Jesus operating at the time.

And that's why I asked, "which Jesus"? The Talmud had several (but none of them match up). And Matthew said there would be "many".

The one's in the Talmud don't really match. None of them were political, though. If the authors wanted to disparage the Jesus of the gospels, they could have done it.

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Did you mean, Jesus said there would be many who would claim to be the Christ - Messiah? That is true.
Not many Jesus.
Jesus is a common Jewish name, but there is only one Messiah. The son of Joseph, the carpenter and Mary of Nazareth, the brother of James, proved to be the Messiah.

dybmh said:

These were simple Jews, correct? Do you think they had access to scripture to check and see if what was being preached was actually true and accurate? Also, weren't the target audience sinners? So, one can't really judge the accuracy of the message based on Jewish sinners at a time when they wouldn't have known the scripture very well to begin with.

Um, not just the leaders. The whole nation. That's why claiming the first Christians were Jews, doesn't prove anything.

Just curious, have you read this tradition yourself? It's very hard to believe.

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This reminds me of this history.

Yes, the Jewish leaders claim authority over the writings of God, while not obeying those writing, but rather trying to withhold it from the people, some of whom have access to it, and are willing to make it known to the common people.
Hence Jesus' words...
(Matthew 23:1-4) 1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger.

John Wycliffe was like those minority Jews, who exposed the religious leaders of his day.

History repeating itself. People trying to hold onto God's word, and claim authority over it, cannot succeed. Simply because God did not have it written for them.
As the authority, God sees to it that the people looked down on, will have access to, understand, benefit from, and dispense it to all.
Joel 2:28-32; Acts of the Apostles 2:16-18

1 Corinthians 1:27-29

dybmh said:

Here is the prophecy ( including verse 20 ) using what appears to be your preferred translation. Respectfully, would you please show me where "The Messiah" is clearly indicated?

20 In that day those remaining of IsraelAnd the survivors of the house of Jacob will no longer support themselves on the one who struck them; But they will support themselves on Jehovah,The Holy One of Israel, with faithfulness.

21 Only a remnant will return,The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.

22 For though your people, O Israel, Are as the grains of sand of the sea, Only a remnant of them will return. An extermination has been decided on, and justice will engulf them.

23 Yes, the extermination decided on by the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, Will be carried out in the entire land.
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Same question for Isaiah 1. You quoted a few verses, but I see nothing "clearly indicating" rejecting "The Messiah". Would you please direct me to those verses in Chapter 1?

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1.
(Isaiah 28:13-18) 13 So to them the word of Jehovah will be: “Command after command, command after command, Line by line, line by line, A little here, a little there,” So that when they walk, They will stumble and fall backward And be broken and ensnared and caught. 14 So hear the word of Jehovah, you boasters, You rulers of this people in Jerusalem, 15 For you men say: “We have made a covenant with Death, And with the Grave we have made an agreement. When the raging flash flood passes through, It will not reach us, For we have made a lie our refuge And we have hidden ourselves in falsehood.” 16 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a tested stone, The precious cornerstone of a sure foundation. No one exercising faith will panic. 17 And I will make justice the measuring line And righteousness the leveling tool. The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will flood out the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with Death will be dissolved, And your agreement with the Grave will not stand. When the raging flash flood passes through, You will be crushed by it.

(Luke 20:17) But he looked straight at them and said: “What, then, does this mean where it is written: ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’?

(Acts of the Apostles 4:11) This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.’


2.
(Daniel 9:25-27) 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”

(John 1:41) He first found his own brother Simon and said to him: “We have found the Messiah” (which means, when translated, “Christ”),

(Luke 3:15) Now the people were in expectation and all of them were reasoning in their hearts about John, “May he perhaps be the Christ?”


3.
(Psalms 2:2) The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

(Matthew 27:1-2) 1 When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people consulted together against Jesus to put him to death. 2 After binding him, they led him off and handed him over to Pilate, the governor.

(Luke 23:10-12) 10 However, the chief priests and the scribes kept standing up and vehemently accusing him. 11 Then Herod together with his soldiers treated him with contempt, and he mocked him by clothing him with a splendid garment and then sent him back to Pilate.
12 Herod and Pilate became friends with each other on that very day, for before that they had been at enmity with each other.

cOLTER said:

I'm curious how Jews and Christians answer this question? At times I have found the references that Christians make to scriptures which they believe refer to the Messiah or Jesus as Messiah to be very thin, even odd!

*** Have Jews traditionally interpreted Genesis 3:15 as a reference to the Messiah?

*** In Judaism when do they see the first revelation of a coming Messiah?

What abot Christians, where do you first see a specific reference to a Messiah in scripture?

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The term "the Messiah" does not appear in the Hebrew Scriptures ("OT"). There, the term "messiah" (and it is without "the") referred to the current monarch and high priest. They had been anointed and the word messiah was an adjective, not a noun. The OT contains no idea of a future messiah, nor did it assign the adjective to any one single person.
In the 3rd century BCE (post-biblical period), an eschatological movement arose, basically in response to the persecution by the Greeks, Hasmoneans and then Rome. As part of this created Last days scenario, they created an eschatological Messiah (the Messiah) who would remove their persecutors and restore the nation, bringing peace and prosperity.
The authors of the first century CE were part of this movement and had hoped that Jesus Christ (Joshua Anointed One) was to be their promised eschatological Messiah.
Instead of Rome being removed, Rome executed their hoped-for Messiah.
The NT authors took the eschatological messiah and incorrectly sought to impose it onto the Hebrew Scriptures (OT).

dybmh said:

Of course! That's part of the miracle! That's part of the proof! That's how one knows it's God's will!

He will raise up a signal for the nations and gather the dispersed ones of Israel, and he will gather together the scattered ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
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Please note: not just Israel, but the scattered ones of Judah. What do you think "scattered ones" means? Sure, literally it's talking about a physical exile. But what do you think it means on a deeper level? They're scattered spiritually, too. And these scattered ones, God will gather them, around the root of Jesse. What does it mean "from the four corners of the earth"? Again, not physically, spiritually? Every possible opinion, every possible conflicting idea, every possible interpretation of scripture, all of those God will gather around this individual.

So yes, 100% yes, The Jewish people will accept the future king when it happens. That's part of the prophecy!

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If this refers to natural Israel, then who is David?

(Jeremiah 23:5-6) 5 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

(Jeremiah 30:8-9) 8 “And in that day,” declares Jehovah of armies, “I will break the yoke from off your neck, and your straps I will tear in two; and no more will strangers make him their slave. 9 They will serve Jehovah their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.”

(Ezekiel 34:22-24) 22 And I will save my sheep, and they will no longer become something to prey upon; and I will judge between a sheep and a sheep. 23 I will raise up one shepherd over them, my servant David, and he will feed them. He himself will feed them and become their shepherd. 24 And I, Jehovah, will become their God, and my servant David a chieftain among them. I myself, Jehovah, have spoken.

(Ezekiel 37:24) My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will walk in my judicial decisions and carefully observe my statutes.

(Hosea 3:5) Afterward the people of Israel will come back and look for Jehovah their God and for David their king, and they will come trembling to Jehovah and to his goodness in the final part of the days.

Jewish virtual library

Messiah


Messiah

nPeace said:

If this refers to natural Israel, then who is David?

(Jeremiah 23:5-6) 5 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

(Jeremiah 30:8-9) 8 “And in that day,” declares Jehovah of armies, “I will break the yoke from off your neck, and your straps I will tear in two; and no more will strangers make him their slave. 9 They will serve Jehovah their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.”

(Ezekiel 34:22-24) 22 And I will save my sheep, and they will no longer become something to prey upon; and I will judge between a sheep and a sheep. 23 I will raise up one shepherd over them, my servant David, and he will feed them. He himself will feed them and become their shepherd. 24 And I, Jehovah, will become their God, and my servant David a chieftain among them. I myself, Jehovah, have spoken.

(Ezekiel 37:24) My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will walk in my judicial decisions and carefully observe my statutes.

(Hosea 3:5) Afterward the people of Israel will come back and look for Jehovah their God and for David their king, and they will come trembling to Jehovah and to his goodness in the final part of the days.

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Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Hosea were talking about their own day and their anticipated own very immediate future.

As for David, it is fascinating to trace his evolution (courtesy of the Davidic dynasty) from murderer, adulterer, insurrectionist, liar, deceiver, bandit (at least) to be reformed into an upright figure of respect. I have prepared a Paper on the subject but I do not know if I am permitted to promote it here.

Doug Mason said:

The term "the Messiah" does not appear in the Hebrew Scriptures ("OT"). There, the term "messiah" (and it is without "the") referred to the current monarch and high priest. They had been anointed and the word messiah was an adjective, not a noun. The OT contains no idea of a future messiah, nor did it assign the adjective to any one single person.
In the 3rd century BCE (post-biblical period), an eschatological movement arose, basically in response to the persecution by the Greeks, Hasmoneans and then Rome. As part of this created Last days scenario, they created an eschatological Messiah (the Messiah) who would remove their persecutors and restore the nation, bringing peace and prosperity.
The authors of the first century CE were part of this movement and had hoped that Jesus Christ (Joshua Anointed One) was to be their promised eschatological Messiah.
Instead of Rome being removed, Rome executed their hoped-for Messiah.
The NT authors took the eschatological messiah and incorrectly sought to impose it onto the Hebrew Scriptures (OT).

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just a side note -- the term "the anointed" with the "the" does appear, 4 times. In each case, starting with Lev 4:3, it does refer to the high priest, and though it is structured as a clarifying noun ("if the priest, the anointed") it serves more like an adjective ("if the anointed priest" - as confirmed by the way the Onkelos translates it to the Aramaic -- כַּהֲנָא רַבָּא)

rosends said:

just a side note -- the term "the anointed" with the "the" does appear, 4 times. In each case, starting with Lev 4:3, it does refer to the high priest, and though it is structured as a clarifying noun ("if the priest, the anointed") it serves more like an adjective ("if the anointed priest" - as confirmed by the way the Onkelos translates it to the Aramaic -- כַּהֲנָא רַבָּא)

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Hi, I understood the questioner was asking about "the Messiah" as a noun that referred to a specific person. As you say, this usage is adjectival. It should also be noted that the OT refers to the present-time messiah. It does not anticipate either a future messiah or use the term to nominate a specific individual.

The following is from one of my Papers that consider the topic:
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The [Hebrew word “messiah”] is an adjectival formation with passive significance from the verbal root “to anoint.” It is used adjectivally in the expression “the anointed priest” (Lev 4:3, 5, 16; 6:15), to refer either to the Aaronid priests in general, all of whom were anointed (Ex 28:41; 30:30;40:15; Num 3:3), or possibly to the high priest alone as the specific successor to Aaron, since the unction of high priest seems to be treated as something special (Num 35:25).

The most common use of the term, however, is as a singular nominalized adjective in construct with a following divine name or Singular with a pronominal suffix referring to the deity: “the anointed of Yahweh” (ISam 24:7, 11; 26:9, 11, 16, 23; 2Sam 1:14, 16; l9:22; Lam 4:20); “the anointed of the God of Jacob” (2Sam 23:1); and: “his, my, your anointed one” (ISam 2:10, 35; 12:3, 5; 16:6; 2Sam 22:51; Isa 45:1; Hab 3:13; Pss 2:2; 18:51; 20:7; 28:8; 84:10; 89:39, 52; 132:10,17; 2Chr 6:42). With one exception all these occurrences refer to the contemporary Israelite king. (Roberts, in Charlesworth, James H. (1992). THE MESSIAH: Developments in Earliest Judaism and Christianity, page 92
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Am I permitted to provide you with the URL of my Paper?

Doug Mason said:

Hi, I understood the questioner was asking about "the Messiah" as a noun that referred to a specific person. As you say, this usage is adjectival. It should also be noted that the OT refers to the present-time messiah. It does not anticipate either a future messiah or use the term to nominate a specific individual.

The following is from one of my Papers that consider the topic:
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The [Hebrew word “messiah”] is an adjectival formation with passive significance from the verbal root “to anoint.” It is used adjectivally in the expression “the anointed priest” (Lev 4:3, 5, 16; 6:15), to refer either to the Aaronid priests in general, all of whom were anointed (Ex 28:41; 30:30;40:15; Num 3:3), or possibly to the high priest alone as the specific successor to Aaron, since the unction of high priest seems to be treated as something special (Num 35:25).

The most common use of the term, however, is as a singular nominalized adjective in construct with a following divine name or Singular with a pronominal suffix referring to the deity: “the anointed of Yahweh” (ISam 24:7, 11; 26:9, 11, 16, 23; 2Sam 1:14, 16; l9:22; Lam 4:20); “the anointed of the God of Jacob” (2Sam 23:1); and: “his, my, your anointed one” (ISam 2:10, 35; 12:3, 5; 16:6; 2Sam 22:51; Isa 45:1; Hab 3:13; Pss 2:2; 18:51; 20:7; 28:8; 84:10; 89:39, 52; 132:10,17; 2Chr 6:42). With one exception all these occurrences refer to the contemporary Israelite king. (Roberts, in Charlesworth, James H. (1992). THE MESSIAH: Developments in Earliest Judaism and Christianity, page 92
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Am I permitted to provide you with the URL of my Paper?

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I think that if you qualify your linked writings with IMOP then you should be within the rules. IMOP

Roughly 3 years into Jesus' public ministry its evident that his identity as "Messiah" was NOT a central feature of his Gospel teaching.
Jesus used "Son of Man" as his tittle. Even after Peters confession the apostles were told NOT to reveal the identity of Jesus who remained "cryptic" throughout his trial.

As much as Christians insist that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, it's telling the Jesus didn't insist that he was!

Jesus was a spiritual teacher who taught of a spiritual kingdom.


Matthew 16:13-16
Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadeswill not overcome it.

The word MESSIAH means anointed; the Hebrew original word is almost identical. Its Greek counterpart is CHRIST, with exactly the same meaning.

That word with all its significance was applied to priests, kings and prophets in the Scriptures.

David called Shaul "the Messiah of Jehovah" more than once (1 Sam. 24:6, 10; 26:16).

Jesus is called Christ because he is the Messiah, and that is only because he was anointed by God to be his anointed one and the future King of God.

nPeace said:

(Isaiah 28:13-18) 13 So to them the word of Jehovah will be: “Command after command, command after command, Line by line, line by line, A little here, a little there,” So that when they walk, They will stumble and fall backward And be broken and ensnared and caught. 14 So hear the word of Jehovah, you boasters, You rulers of this people in Jerusalem, 15 For you men say: “We have made a covenant with Death, And with the Grave we have made an agreement. When the raging flash flood passes through, It will not reach us, For we have made a lie our refuge And we have hidden ourselves in falsehood.” 16 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a tested stone, The precious cornerstone of a sure foundation. No one exercising faith will panic. 17 And I will make justice the measuring line And righteousness the leveling tool. The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will flood out the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with Death will be dissolved, And your agreement with the Grave will not stand. When the raging flash flood passes through, You will be crushed by it

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It's an interesting chapter because of the juxtapostion and repetiton of imagery. "Showy crowns" is repeated twice, "fading blossoms/flowers" is repeated twice. Then Jehovah becomes the "glorious crown" and the "beautiful garland". Repetition and juxtapostion.

The same thing happens with the words of the drunk priests and prophets. "Command after command, line by line" is what the drunk priests stammer. Then Jehovah will speak these same words right back to the priests and they will "stumble and fall backwards". Repetition and juxtaposition.

Jehovah's words make them stumble backwards. If the pattern holds, then Jehovah's words are the foundation stone. That's the repetition and juxtaposition. Those who cling to it will not panic. Cling to the words, and you won't stumble backwards into the trap.

It might be tempting to look back to verse 2 ( using your preferred translation ) and make a different conclusion on who or what the foundation stone is. But, verse 2 says "hurled forcibly", and verse 16 says "I am laying". And the pattern is, Jehovah is flipping the script on these arrogant drunk leaders. So, it's not the foundation stone that is rejected, it's the stammering words that are used against them. There is no rejection, it's a trap, the choice has been made by Jehovah *before* the foundation stone is sent.

So does this "clearly indicate" that the Messiah will be rejected? I don't think so. It's still a very very good example though, especially if one focuses on verse 2.

nPeace said:

25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”

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You're focusing on the "Messiah will be cut off"? I don't know if this one clearly indicates the Messiah will be rejected. Cut off why? And by whom? And it doesn't match the prophecy in Genesis 49:10, nor the prophecy in Isaiah 11, nor the prophecy in Zechariah 6. So this could be a failed messiah, someone anointed, but still a failure. I think Isaiah 28 is a much stronger example.

nPeace said:

The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

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No, sorry, this one isn't about the Jewish people rejecting, it's about the kings of the earth. And also it's present tense...

nPeace said:

If this refers to natural Israel, then who is David?

(Jeremiah 23:5-6) 5 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

(Jeremiah 30:8-9) 8 “And in that day,” declares Jehovah of armies, “I will break the yoke from off your neck, and your straps I will tear in two; and no more will strangers make him their slave. 9 They will serve Jehovah their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.”

(Ezekiel 34:22-24) 22 And I will save my sheep, and they will no longer become something to prey upon; and I will judge between a sheep and a sheep. 23 I will raise up one shepherd over them, my servant David, and he will feed them. He himself will feed them and become their shepherd. 24 And I, Jehovah, will become their God, and my servant David a chieftain among them. I myself, Jehovah, have spoken.

(Ezekiel 37:24) My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will walk in my judicial decisions and carefully observe my statutes.

(Hosea 3:5) Afterward the people of Israel will come back and look for Jehovah their God and for David their king, and they will come trembling to Jehovah and to his goodness in the final part of the days.

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"If this refers to natural Israel, then who is David?"

That's an excellent question. The way I read it, the future king will be deeply inspired by King David. So deeply, it's almost like a reincarnation.

nPeace said:

If this refers to natural Israel, then who is David?

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David refers tot he messiah. It is the job of the messiah to gather teh Jews from the diaspora and bring us back to Israel. Jesus didn't do this, which is why he is excluded from being the messiah.

Eli G said:

The word MESSIAH means anointed; the Hebrew original word is almost identical. Its Greek counterpart is CHRIST, with exactly the same meaning.

That word with all its significance was applied to priests, kings and prophets in the Scriptures.

David called Shaul "the Messiah of Jehovah" more than once (1 Sam. 24:6, 10; 26:16).

Jesus is called Christ because he is the Messiah, and that is only because he was anointed by God to be his anointed one and the future King of God.

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In the Hebrew Scriptures (Christian's "Old Testament") messiah was the current anointed monarch or high priest. But the Scriptures do not look forward to a future messiah, In the post-Scriptures period, namely the latter Second-Temple period, the people responded to the persecution by the Hasmoneans and by Rome by creating an eschatological scenario which included a spirit world, divine intervention and a coming, rescuing, liberating eschatological individual "the Messiah". Thus this was quite different to the "anointed" messiahs of the Scriptures.
The NT writers took this eschatological Messiah and tried to write him back into the Hebrew Scriptures, using questionable processes.
Two of my freely available Papers I hope these links work):

Conception of the Great Religions: (99+) Conception of the Great Religions | Doug Mason - Academia.edu

Transforming the Messiahs: Earthly Monarchs and High Priests to Celestial Liberators: (99+) Transforming the Messiahs: Earthly Monarchs and High Priests to Celestial Liberators | Doug Mason - Academia.edu

dybmh said:

"If this refers to natural Israel, then who is David?"

That's an excellent question. The way I read it, the future king will be deeply inspired by King David. So deeply, it's almost like a reincarnation.

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The revolution of David from murderer, adulterer, bandit, and insurrectionist to become the "beloved of God" is testimony to the power of the ensuing Davidic dynasty. It is absolutely amazing what they achieved. On top of that, Joseph might have been a member of the Davidic dynasty, but he was not Jesus' father (so the Gospel writers tell us).
Two of my freely available Papers:

What each did with the David they inherited: The Sanitizing of David: (99+) What each did with the David they inherited: The Sanitizing of Davi | Doug Mason - Academia.edu

The amazing transformation of David: (99+) THE AMAZING TRANSFORMATION OF DAVID | Doug Mason - Academia.edu

Doug Mason said:

In the Hebrew Scriptures (Christian's "Old Testament") messiah was the current anointed monarch or high priest. But the Scriptures do not look forward to a future messiah, In the post-Scriptures period, namely the latter Second-Temple period, the people responded to the persecution by the Hasmoneans and by Rome by creating an eschatological scenario which included a spirit world, divine intervention and a coming, rescuing, liberating eschatological individual "the Messiah". Thus this was quite different to the "anointed" messiahs of the Scriptures.
The NT writers took this eschatological Messiah and tried to write him back into the Hebrew Scriptures, using questionable processes.
Two of my freely available Papers I hope these links work):

Conception of the Great Religions: (99+) Conception of the Great Religions | Doug Mason - Academia.edu

Transforming the Messiahs: Earthly Monarchs and High Priests to Celestial Liberators: (99+) Transforming the Messiahs: Earthly Monarchs and High Priests to Celestial Liberators | Doug Mason - Academia.edu

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WOW! "your paper" ??? Thats a massive amount of material! Well done! Lots of valid points! If all true, that should pretty much obliterate anyone's faith in God! LoL!

IMOP Both Judaism and Christianity are evolved religions born out of real revelations. The problem with the Bible is that some of its true!

I'm a student of the Urantia Book 1909-1934, printed 1955 which is very familiar with many of the points and personal views contained in your papers.



92:1.1 (1003.6) "The evolution of religion has been traced from early fear and ghosts down through many successive stages of development, including those efforts first to coerce and then to cajole the spirits. Tribal fetishes grew into totems and tribal gods; magic formulas became modern prayers. Circumcision, at first a sacrifice, became a hygienic procedure.

92:1.2 (1003.7) Religion progressed from nature worship up through ghost worship to fetishism throughout the savage childhood of the races. With the dawn of civilization the human race espoused the more mystic and symbolic beliefs, while now, with approaching maturity, mankind is ripening for the appreciation of real religion, even a beginning of the revelation of truth itself.

92:1.3 (1004.1) Religion arises as a biologic reaction of mind to spiritual beliefs and the environment; it is the last thing to perish or change in a race. Religion is society’s adjustment, in any age, to that which is mysterious. As a social institution it embraces rites, symbols, cults, scriptures, altars, shrines, and temples. Holy water, relics, fetishes, charms, vestments, bells, drums, and priesthoods are common to all religions. And it is impossible entirely to divorce purely evolved religion from either magic or sorcery.

92:1.4 (1004.2) Mystery and power have always stimulated religious feelings and fears, while emotion has ever functioned as a powerful conditioning factor in their development. Fear has always been the basic religious stimulus. Fear fashions the gods of evolutionary religion and motivates the religious ritual of the primitive believers. As civilization advances, fear becomes modified by reverence, admiration, respect, and sympathy and is then further conditioned by remorse and repentance.

92:1.5 (1004.3) One Asiatic people taught that “God is a great fear”; that is the outgrowth of purely evolutionary religion. Jesus, the revelation of the highest type of religious living, proclaimed that “God is love.” UB 1955 no copyrite.