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'Allah does not guide the wrongdoers'?

Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I read this repeatedly in the Qur'an,

[9:109] Is he, then, who has erected his structure on the fear of Allah and His good pleasure better, or he who erects his structure on the brink of a crumbling bank, so that it crumbles down with him into the Hell-Fire? Allah does not bestow His Guidance on the wrong-doing folk.

In a theological sense, compared, for example, to Jesus saying 'Those who are healthy don't need a physician but the sick do', how does one become guided from sinning to becoming a Muslim? If Allah doesn't guide wrong-doers, how are they led off a path of wrong-doing etc?

Thanks.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
I read this repeatedly in the Qur'an,

[9:109] Is he, then, who has erected his structure on the fear of Allah and His good pleasure better, or he who erects his structure on the brink of a crumbling bank, so that it crumbles down with him into the Hell-Fire? Allah does not bestow His Guidance on the wrong-doing folk.

In a theological sense, compared, for example, to Jesus saying 'Those who are healthy don't need a physician but the sick do', how does one become guided from sinning to becoming a Muslim? If Allah doesn't guide wrong-doers, how are they led off a path of wrong-doing etc?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Well, here is my understanding..

"Almighty God guides whomsoever He wills, and sends astray whomsoever He wills."

I don't anthopomorphise God in my understanding.
Those who hide truth because it doesn't suit them for some reason, effectively send themselves astray.
..much like the Sanhedrin who denied Jesus' authority as Messiah. They wanted to keep the status-quo .. their privileged status.

It is how our minds work .. it's all psychological .. God does not need to wave a magic wand .. He is closer to us than our jugular veins. He knows what is in our innermost subconscious minds.
..better than we do ourselves, in many cases.

Good deeds bring light .. bad deeds bring darkness.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
Well, here is my understanding..

"Almighty God guides whomsoever He wills, and sends astray whomsoever He wills."

I don't anthopomorphise God in my understanding.
Those who hide truth because it doesn't suit them for some reason, effectively send themselves astray.
..much like the Sanhedrin who denied Jesus' authority as Messiah. They wanted to keep the status-quo .. their privileged status.

It is how our minds work .. it's all psychological .. God does not need to wave a magic wand .. He is closer to us than our jugular veins. He knows what is in our innermost subconscious minds.
..better than we do ourselves, in many cases.
Click to expand...
So could it be thought of 'Allah does not guide the wrongdoers' in the sense of 'Allah is not their guide, their guide is...' Satan, sin etc?
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Rival said:
I read this repeatedly in the Qur'an,

[9:109] Is he, then, who has erected his structure on the fear of Allah and His good pleasure better, or he who erects his structure on the brink of a crumbling bank, so that it crumbles down with him into the Hell-Fire? Allah does not bestow His Guidance on the wrong-doing folk.

In a theological sense, compared, for example, to Jesus saying 'Those who are healthy don't need a physician but the sick do', how does one become guided from sinning to becoming a Muslim? If Allah doesn't guide wrong-doers, how are they led off a path of wrong-doing etc?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
The way I interpret that verse is that Allah does not bestow His Guidance on the wrong-doing folk because these folks do not allow themselves to be guided, since they rebel against God. By contrast, those who recognize and believe in God are guided by God because they allow themselves to be guided.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

Allah might want to guide wrong-doers and lead them off a path of wrong-doing, but because humans have free will, God does not stop wrong-doers from wrongdoing. Thus wrong-doers are not led off the path of wrongdoing, they just continue to do wrong, since that is their choice.
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Very early in the book, Surah 2, verses 6-20 seem to me to say that Allah designed some people to be non-believers, and those non-believers are just out of luck.

That seems to be important for this OP, no?
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
icehorse said:
Very early in the book, Surah 2, verses 6-20 seem to me to say that Allah designed some people to be non-believers..
Click to expand...
An incorrect interpretation..
No individual soul is created to go to hell .. we are given free-will.
satan has free-will .. he chooses to work corruption through pride and envy. he ruins his own soul.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
An incorrect interpretation..
No individual soul is created to go to hell .. we are given free-will.
satan has free-will .. he chooses to work corruption through pride and envy. he ruins his own soul.
Click to expand...
As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe.
God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

The second line seems problematic, along with this,

They seek to deceive God and the believers but they only deceive themselves, though they do not realize it. There is a disease in their hearts, to which God has added more: agonizing torment awaits them for their persistent lying.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Rival said:
As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe.
God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

The second line seems problematic, along with this,

They seek to deceive God and the believers but they only deceive themselves, though they do not realize it. There is a disease in their hearts, to which God has added more: agonizing torment awaits them for their persistent lying.
Click to expand...
Such a structure strongly suggests that it's created
to condemn those who believe otherwise, & make
them (us) morally inferior, & even downright evil.

It will inspire many to intolerance & hatred, but without
explicitly stating so, thereby offering plausible deniability
to apologists for the scripture's effects, ie, hateful acts
by the faithful upon non-believers.

The "Religion Of Peace" is indeed what it claims for
those inclined to see it thus, but the subtext offers
justification for the exact opposite. Mixed message.
 
Last edited:
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe.
God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

The second line seems problematic, along with this,

They seek to deceive God and the believers but they only deceive themselves, though they do not realize it. There is a disease in their hearts, to which God has added more: agonizing torment awaits them for their persistent lying.
Click to expand...

8 And of mankind are some who say: We believe in God and the Last Day, when they believe not.
9 They think to beguile God and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
10 In their hearts is a disease, and God increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
- Qur'an The Cow (Pickthall) -

..same as I said before .. bad deeds lead to darkness.
The text is saying "God increseth their disease" .. it doesn't stipulate how .. I understand it is a consequence of our own intention and deeds.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
8 And of mankind are some who say: We believe in God and the Last Day, when they believe not.
9 They think to beguile God and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
10 In their hearts is a disease, and God increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
- Qur'an The Cow (Pickthall) -

..same as I said before .. bad deeds lead to darkness.
The text is saying "God increseth their disease" .. it doesn't stipulate how .. I understand it is a consequence of our own intention and deeds.
Click to expand...
This all sounds very negative towards non-believers,
yet it's so imprecisely worded that I'm unclear about
what's actually said. It yields only an impression.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
It will inspire many to intolerance & hatred, but without
explicitly stating so, thereby offering plausible deniability
to apologists for the scripture's effects, ie, hateful acts
by the faithful upon non-believers.
Click to expand...
One may cherry-pick verses, and ignore others to justify their actions.
Almighty God knows what is in our hearts .. nothing is hidden from Him.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
One may cherry-pick verses, and ignore others to justify their actions.
Almighty God knows what is in our hearts .. nothing is hidden from Him.
Click to expand...
I observe that religious scripture can justify
whatever orientation the believer has, ie,
scripture doesn't guide...it confirms.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
I often hear that everyone hears God's message,
but we non-believers refuse to hear it, & that we
are dishonest to claim so.
Click to expand...
We all "hear" what we hear.
I do not know what is in a person's heart..
..but God does.

..and God informs us that people lie to themselves.
I have no difficulty believing or understanding that.
..after all, we are all human. :)

That does not mean that every disbeliever is lying to themselves.
..only God knows that .. all we can see, is that which is apparent.
i.e. our behaviour towards each other
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
We all "hear" what we hear.
I do not know what is in a person's heart..
..but God does.

..and God informs us that people lie to themselves.
I have no difficulty believing or understanding that.
..after all, we are all human. :)

That does not mean that every disbeliever is lying to themselves.
..only God knows that .. all we can see, is that which is apparent.
i.e. our behaviour towards each other
Click to expand...
Many people claim to know that there's a god,
what this god thinks, what it says all humans
think, & what should be done about it.
But your view about what we can actually observe
is best, ie, we can know behavior.
 
R

ROGER BARRE

New Member
muhammad_isa said:
Well, here is my understanding..

"Almighty God guides whomsoever He wills, and sends astray whomsoever He wills."

I don't anthopomorphise God in my understanding.
Those who hide truth because it doesn't suit them for some reason, effectively send themselves astray.
..much like the Sanhedrin who denied Jesus' authority as Messiah. They wanted to keep the status-quo .. their privileged status.

It is how our minds work .. it's all psychological .. God does not need to wave a magic wand .. He is closer to us than our jugular veins. He knows what is in our innermost subconscious minds.
..better than we do ourselves, in many cases.

Good deeds bring light .. bad deeds bring darkness.
Click to expand...
Generator Operator Destroyer. What generates. So could we all shut up about God. God made you yesterday and has moved on. Any chances of catching up requires a light load (empty the thought bag) and infinite patience. So find what generates you and see what happens. Generator inflates. Organizer variates. Destroyer deflates. Getting reinflated is Allah's kindness. It needs no scriptures. Self-evident if you triage your needs. To the who need-not themselves, breath is all. To others, it's a means to an end, usually increasing themselves till God leaves and all crumbles.
 
Farrukh

Farrukh

Active Member
Rival said:
If Allah doesn't guide wrong-doers, how are they led off a path of wrong-doing etc?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

you missed the very next verse, explanation in Tafseer Saadi

((The structure they have built will remain a cause of doubt in their hearts)* that is, doubts that will take root in their hearts ((until their hearts are cut to pieces with extreme regret, and they repent to their Lord and fear Him greatly, and thus Allah will forgive them. Otherwise, their structure will only increase them in doubt and hypocrisy
 
stevecanuck

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
muhammad_isa said:
10 In their hearts is a disease, and God increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
- Qur'an The Cow (Pickthall)
Click to expand...

This is one of the many logical flaws in the Qur'an. A person does not choose to have a disease. Do you know who chooses for that person to have a disease? Yup, your best buddy.

So, how can it possibly be the fault of the unbeliever to "have a disease"? Anyone who truly uses linear logic to make sense of the Qur'an will see what an obviously flawed, man-made mess it is.
 
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