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Former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi had priests come to her San Francisco home to preform an "exorcism

Debater Slayer

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Yeah, I've known a bunch of people who have had abortions. Most were teen girls who were forced into it by their family or circumstances. My mom had an appointment to abort me but changed her mind, and my oldest sister had at least one abortion. All of those were sketchy situations. In Catholicism, personal circumstances are factored into culpability. You have to be making the decision freely, without undue pressure, and ignorant of knowing it was wrong to do so to be judged to the full extent for it. We're not actually heartless, you know.
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Both of my friends were independent adults. They weren't pressured by other people either; they could have carried to term if they had wanted, albeit not without significant health risks.

What qualifies as being "ignorant of knowing it was wrong to do so," though? That particular condition seems rather open to interpretation at first glance.
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Debater Slayer said:
Both of my friends were independent adults. They weren't pressured by other people either; they could have carried to term if they had wanted, albeit not without significant health risks.

What qualifies as being "ignorant of knowing it was wrong to do so," though? That particular condition seems rather open to interpretation at first glance.
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In Catholicism, it would mean something like not knowing the Church's stance on it or your conscience not telling you it's wrong (that can happen for multiple reasons). But I'm not here to judge. I have my own sins.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We Never Know said:
Btw, the liver uses more oxygen than the brain.
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Perhaps. There is no much need for a liver in a fetus either. Things change once a person is born and starts to consume and digest its own food. So like the non-functioning brain the liver would be alive but functioning at a very low level in a fetus.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
In Catholicism, it would mean something like not knowing the Church's stance on it or your conscience not telling you it's wrong (that can happen for multiple reasons). But I'm not here to judge. I have my own sins.
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Being "wrong" in Catholicism does not by any means tell us that it is actually wrong. I can understand that the dogma says that one should not do it when one is Catholic, but it would just be another "sin" that would be forgiven with confession and atonement.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
We weren't talking about consciousness, although an unborn baby is certainly more conscious and aware than a brain dead person before they're born. They respond to their environment, consciously move, dream, etc. before birth. My mom saw me on ultrasound "swimming" around months before I was born, and I was also born a month premature. That's not how it is with brain dead people. This is basic stuff you don't seem to get.
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I was. How else does one define what a person is? To try to equate a fertilized egg to a living breathing human being is ludicrous. It can be refuted by a simple thought experiment.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Yeah, I've known a bunch of people who have had abortions. Most were teen girls who were forced into it by their family or circumstances. My mom had an appointment to abort me but changed her mind, and my oldest sister had at least one abortion. All of those were sketchy situations. In Catholicism, personal circumstances are factored into culpability. You have to be making the decision freely, without undue pressure, and know it was wrong to do so to be judged to the full extent for it. We're not actually heartless, you know. It doesn't change the teaching that abortion is still a sin, but things can be complicated on the individual level. We're called to compassion.
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Your anecdotes are not evidence. You would need to poll people and find out who got abortions when and why. You probably never hear of most women that get abortions because it is none of your business. It is none of my business if someone got an abortion or not. You are using a tainted data base and arriving a faulty conclusion.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Saint Frankenstein said:
Why is religion unacceptable as a reason but not political ideology? It's okay if you're a Marxist but not okay if you're a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, etc.? You're basically saying that religious people shouldn't be allowed to uphold their conscience in the public square.
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Because most people aren't Catholic or Methodist or Mormon or Jew or Muslim. Why should they have to live in a system legislated per Southern Baptist morality? It's inappropriate because more often than not it creates victimless crimes and makes laws based on the pages of primitive and ancient superstitions. People should able to choose to uphold certain religious whatevers, never forced.
Political philosophies, on the other hand, don't inherently come with or begin with dogma or appeasing invisible thingies no one can prove. They can allow for change. This is in stark contrast to how Christianity often boasts it doesn't change and their god is eternally static.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Religious people aren't secular. Can't happen. You can't have religion and also lack religion.
That's an issue on the walking contradictions.
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I have to disagree with this. One can have both religious beliefs and secular beliefs. Not all Christians are Flat Earthers. The belief in a globe is a secular belief. Secular beliefs are just beliefs that are not based upon one's religion. I know that it might not seem like it some times, but a person can have both kinds of beliefs.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Subduction Zone said:
I have to disagree with this. One can have both religious beliefs and secular beliefs. Not all Christians are Flat Earthers. The belief in a globe is a secular belief. Secular beliefs are just beliefs that are not based upon one's religion. I know that it might not seem like it some times, but a person can have both kinds of beliefs.
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The shape of the Earth is a fact and not belief. No faith, acceptance or trust. That's just how it factually is.
Religious people are religious and not secular. You might as well try and call someone and atheist theist. It can't happen.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
The shape of the Earth is a fact and not belief. No faith, acceptance or trust. That's just how it factually is.
Religious people are religious and not secular. You might as well try and call someone and atheist theist. It can't happen.
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Evolution is a fact and not a belief and yet there are many religious people that believe in creationism. Religious beliefs often, but not always, contradict facts. Secular beliefs may or may not be facts.
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
Shadow Wolf said:
I've read the Bible. He had no possessions, no money, wore nothing fancy, gave everything away, lived off what people would give him and he commanded his disciples do the same.
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Apparently you then have forgotten this:

He said to them, “Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste death until they see the Kingdom of God come with power.” After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John, and brought them up onto a high mountain privately by themselves, and he was changed into another form in front of them. His clothing became glistening, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. Elijah and Moses appeared to them, and they were talking with Jesus.
Mark. 9:1-4

Being poor doesn't necessary mean person looks like a beggar.
 
Estro Felino

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Revoltingest said:
So Obama, Pelosi, & nearly all the other Dems are not secular, eh.

Hey, you should post a thread with a poll....
Are you religious & secular?
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Obama has a deep religiosity. (But his religion is probably other than Christianity)
So has Nancy Pelosi, who flew to the Vatican to receive the Communion.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Subduction Zone said:
The Catholic Church's position on abortion has not been consistent. For a long time it was not considered murder
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Exactly, as the Church's position long ago was that abortion was not to be done after "quickening" [noticeable movement], which was not usually until around the beginning of the 2nd trimester. So, what did they think was growing inside the woman, a turnip?
 
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