The Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) framework vs. e.g. Jordan Peterson

icehorse · Jan 24, 2023

Context:

- I consider myself to be what Bill Maher calls a "classic liberal". I mostly like what Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren promote.. mostly.
- Of course I'm worried about the extreme right. But I also believe that there is an extreme left that's quite dangerous, and this thread is about the extreme left.
- The "DEI Framework" is a new term to me, but it seems to be an accepted term - by the left - that summarizes a lot of what concerns me about the extreme left.
- I'm quite concerned about the growing idea that people have a right to not be offended. This idea is foundational to fascism.
- I'm quite concerned about our society's inability to separate ideas from messengers. It's almost certainly the case that most public messengers will sometimes be "right" and sometimes be "wrong". Good ideas shouldn't be buried just because sometimes the messenger has been "wrong".
- I'm quite concerned with people's inability to separate a goal from the tactics used to achieve the goal. For example, I'm all for racial equality, but I disagree with BLM's tactics. For many people, if I disagree with BLM, that makes me a racist. That's just poor thinking.

One problem I see with the DEI is that it too often imposes its own dogma into the world. Here's a link to an article that lists a bunch of professors who have been sanctioned (including Jordan Peterson), for disagreeing with DEI dogma:

College of Psychologists of Ontario to Jordan Peterson: Undergo reeducation or lose your license

To me, Jordan Peterson is a great example of a flawed messenger. I often strongly disagree with his ideas. But sometimes I think he's correct on a topic, and when he's correct, he can voice his ideas quite strongly. Recently, he's been told that he has to get "re-educated", or they'll take his license away. Wow! If you disagree with him, sure, debate him, write well reasoned criticisms with his ideas. But to take away his license? Again, this seems like a big step towards "state enabled dogma" and yes, fascism.

People who chose to be offended, cannot be allowed to run the show.

Orbit · Jan 24, 2023

I think the moral panic of those opposed to DEI is really just a conservative reaction to social change. They want things to go back to where we were in the 1950s, and see any efforts for ameliorating historical disparities as antithetical to their desires, while they use "free speech" as an excuse to be bigoted. IMO.

Secret Chief · Jan 24, 2023

The difficulty I have is the wearing of two hats that seem inappropriate. I don't expect a psychologist to tweet things like "Drop the damn masks and the idiot rules and get on with life." Be a psychologist or be a....whatever....but not both. I don't keep an awareness of his activities but it seems to me he's long gone over to the latter role rather than the former. Does he think having a psychologist hat feeds into the wisdom of his utterances?

Altfish · Jan 24, 2023

Is the issue of 'Choosing to be offended' solely a left wing issue?

I'm also not sure it is part of the DEI framework, but I stand to be corrected

I agree that you cannot live life without being offended.
People who wear hats inside cars/pubs/etc. offend me. People who wear socks with sandals offend me. BUT I get over it.

Thinking about it Jordan Peterson offends me

Secret Chief · Jan 24, 2023

Altfish said:
People who wear socks with sandals offend me.

That's pretty universal.

icehorse · Jan 24, 2023

Orbit said:
I think the moral panic of those opposed to DEI is really just a conservative reaction to social change. They want things to go back to where we were in the 1950s, and see any efforts for ameliorating historical disparities as antithetical to their desires, while they use "free speech" as an excuse to be bigoted. IMO.

I'm offended

To me, this is a great example of separating goals from tactics. I mostly agree with the goals of DEI, I just think that too often their tactics are bad.

icehorse · Jan 24, 2023

Secret Chief said:
The difficulty I have is the wearing of two hats that seem inappropriate. I don't expect a psychologist to tweet things like "Drop the damn masks and the idiot rules and get on with life." Be a psychologist or be a....whatever....but not both. I don't keep an awareness of his activities but it seems to me he's long gone over to the latter role rather than the former. Does he think having a psychologist hat feeds into the wisdom of his utterances?

All valid points, but does that mean his license should be revoked?

SkepticThinker · Jan 24, 2023

icehorse said:
Context:

- I consider myself to be what Bill Maher calls a "classic liberal". I mostly like what Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren promote.. mostly.
- Of course I'm worried about the extreme right. But I also believe that there is an extreme left that's quite dangerous, and this thread is about the extreme left.
- The "DEI Framework" is a new term to me, but it seems to be an accepted term - by the left - that summarizes a lot of what concerns me about the extreme left.
- I'm quite concerned about the growing idea that people have a right to not be offended. This idea is foundational to fascism.
- I'm quite concerned about our society's inability to separate ideas from messengers. It's almost certainly the case that most public messengers will sometimes be "right" and sometimes be "wrong". Good ideas shouldn't be buried just because sometimes the messenger has been "wrong".
- I'm quite concerned with people's inability to separate a goal from the tactics used to achieve the goal. For example, I'm all for racial equality, but I disagree with BLM's tactics. For many people, if I disagree with BLM, that makes me a racist. That's just poor thinking.

One problem I see with the DEI is that it too often imposes its own dogma into the world. Here's a link to an article that lists a bunch of professors who have been sanctioned (including Jordan Peterson), for disagreeing with DEI dogma:

College of Psychologists of Ontario to Jordan Peterson: Undergo reeducation or lose your license

To me, Jordan Peterson is a great example of a flawed messenger. I often strongly disagree with his ideas. But sometimes I think he's correct on a topic, and when he's correct, he can voice his ideas quite strongly. Recently, he's been told that he has to get "re-educated", or they'll take his license away. Wow! If you disagree with him, sure, debate him, write well reasoned criticisms with his ideas. But to take away his license? Again, this seems like a big step towards "state enabled dogma" and yes, fascism.

People who chose to be offended, cannot be allowed to run the show.

Just on your "re-education" comment about Peterson .... Not sure exactly what you're referring to, but it may have something to do with the fact that he still pushes Jungian psychoanalysis which is, let's say, a tad outdated (by almost a hundred years or so), when it comes to the field of psychology. In other words, he doesn't seem to be up on current psychology, which is kind of a problem if you're teaching it.

icehorse · Jan 24, 2023

SkepticThinker said:
Just on your "re-education" comment about Peterson .... Not sure exactly what you're referring to, but it may have something to do with the fact that he still pushes Jungian psychoanalysis which is, let's say, a tad outdated (by almost a hundred years or so), when it comes to the field of psychology. In other words, he doesn't seem to be up on current psychology, which is kind of a problem if you're teaching it.

If you even skim the article linked to in the OP, you'll see that that's not why his license is under fire.

Second, let's say that Jungian is "outdated". Would that be a reason to suspend his license? If so, that could be another form of dogma, no?

SkepticThinker · Jan 24, 2023

icehorse said:
If you even skim the article linked to in the OP, you'll see that that's not why his license is under fire.

Okay, thanks for the info. I'll speak on that after I've had time to read through the article.

icehorse said:
Second, let's say that Jungian is "outdated". Would that be a reason to suspend his license? If so, that could be another form of dogma, no?

I'm not sure, but Jungian psychoanalysis is like, our very earliest attempts to understand the human mind, and not even close to the best one. The field of psychology has grown by vast leaps and bounds since then and not being up on all of that would make somebody a pretty terrible and uninformed Professor of Psychology. I wouldn't want him as my professor. I'd want the person who's up on the latest studies and data.

Watchmen · Jan 24, 2023

Orbit said:
I think the moral panic of those opposed to DEI is really just a conservative reaction to social change. They want things to go back to where we were in the 1950s, and see any efforts for ameliorating historical disparities as antithetical to their desires, while they use "free speech" as an excuse to be bigoted. IMO.

I think you grossly misinterpret the right. I don’t know a single right-wing person who would want to go back to the 50’s.

icehorse · Jan 24, 2023

SkepticThinker said:
I'm not sure, but Jungian psychoanalysis is like, our very earliest attempts to understand the human mind, and not even close to the best one. The field of psychology has grown by vast leaps and bounds since then and not being up on all of that would make somebody a pretty terrible and uninformed Professor of Psychology. I wouldn't want him as my professor. I'd want the person who's up on the latest studies and data.

"Early" is not always bad. I cannot speak to how Peterson's branch of psychology has grown, but I can give you an example of some early thinking about psychology that fell into obscurity for a period and was then rediscovered and is now considered to be leading edge.

Specifically, the work of Eleanor and James Gibson - back some 70 or 80 years ago - was long forgotten, but it has recently become an essential underpinning to most modern machine learning technology and, somewhat surprisingly, cutting edge sports coaching.

SomeRandom · Jan 24, 2023

icehorse said:
If you even skim the article linked to in the OP, you'll see that that's not why his license is under fire.

Second, let's say that Jungian is "outdated". Would that be a reason to suspend his license? If so, that could be another form of dogma, no?

Whilst that could very well be a form of dogma, a professor should remain up to date, regardless of subject. I mean that’s quite literally their job, no?
We have updated our understanding in mental health greatly since Jung and in science especially, you either update yourself or you’re left behind. Thats it. No ifs no buts. It’d be like teaching flat earth in geology, right? Like you could insofar as acknowledging it as an outdated mode of thinking we have left behind. But outside of that context, you wouldn’t be a very useful physics teacher if you still relied on that model

That’s just how science works in general.
We keep our building blocks if they’re stable enough but acknowledge when the structure is out of date and therefore not useful anymore. If that makes sense? Doesn’t matter the discipline, both the hard and soft sciences do this all the time
Though I’m not versed enough in psychology to really argue for or against Jungian psychology specifically.

That all said, I think Peterson has other more pressing issues currently than his license.
Last I heard he was in a rather sad state, mentally and physical due to his various addictions. He was a rather sorry looking sight in the last vid I saw on him anyway
I think the man is in need of medical care and I hope he gets it

SkepticThinker · Jan 24, 2023

icehorse said:
"Early" is not always bad. I cannot speak to how Peterson's branch of psychology has grown, but I can give you an example of some early thinking about psychology that fell into obscurity for a period and was then rediscovered and is now considered to be leading edge.

Specifically, the work of Eleanor and James Gibson - back some 70 or 80 years ago - was long forgotten, but it has recently become an essential underpinning to most modern machine learning technology and, somewhat surprisingly, cutting edge sports coaching.

When it comes to behavioural and developmental psychology, "early" tends to be not so great, overall. I mean, there are bits of decent stuff here and there among the junk that you can be sort of useful here and there, but we've just learned so much about brains and behaviour since the early 20th Century that we've kind of left that stuff in the dust. And when it comes to therapy and counselling, we've put together much more effective methods and tools than Freud and Jung ever could have imagined.

Gibson's work on sensory and visual perception was a step away from Freud and Jungian type of though and is based more on Gestalt principles which was kind of our next step forward in the field of psychology.;

Orbit · Jan 24, 2023

Watchmen said:
I think you grossly misinterpret the right. I don’t know a single right-wing person who would want to go back to the 50’s.

Are you kidding me? They want a white-as-default, nuclear family "values", Christian ethnostate. Several books analyzing this have been written. It's called Christian nationalism and it is a dominant stream in right wing politics.

SkepticThinker · Jan 24, 2023

SomeRandom said:
Whilst that could very well be a form of dogma, a professor should remain up to date, regardless of subject. I mean that’s quite literally their job, no?
We have updated our understanding in mental health greatly since Jung and in science especially, you either update yourself or you’re left behind. Thats it. No ifs no buts. It’d be like teaching flat earth in geology, right? Like you could insofar as acknowledging it as an outdated mode of thinking we have left behind. But outside of that context, you wouldn’t be a very useful physics teacher if you still relied on that model

That’s just how science works in general.
We keep our building blocks if they’re stable enough but acknowledge when the structure is out of date and therefore not useful anymore. If that makes sense? Doesn’t matter the discipline, both the hard and soft sciences do this all the time
Though I’m not versed enough in psychology to really argue for or against Jungian psychology specifically.

That all said, I think Peterson has other more pressing issues currently than his license.
Last I heard he was in a rather sad state, mentally and physical due to his various addictions. He was a rather sorry looking sight in the last vid I saw on him anyway
I think the man is in need of medical care and I hope he gets it

You said it much better than I did.

Saint Frankenstein · Jan 24, 2023

SkepticThinker said:
Just on your "re-education" comment about Peterson .... Not sure exactly what you're referring to, but it may have something to do with the fact that he still pushes Jungian psychoanalysis which is, let's say, a tad outdated (by almost a hundred years or so), when it comes to the field of psychology. In other words, he doesn't seem to be up on current psychology, which is kind of a problem if you're teaching it.

There are still many Jungian psychologists. It's just one method to use that many find helpful. I'd rather go to one of them than one who uses Freud's puerile neurotic crap. Just because it's not the most popular doesn't mean it's outdated or useless. It depends on the needs of the patient. Personally, I think Jung was a genius and it seems he rubs people the wrong way because he viewed humans and their needs as more than just physical.

What is Jungian Analysis? - NYAAP - NYC

Quintessence · Jan 24, 2023

Working in higher ed, I get to see some of the front line of DEI initiatives.

On the whole, they are a net positive. I have learned a lot from participating in them. It laid bare prejudiced thinking patterns I didn't even know that I had. Working through that is difficult, but ultimately makes you a better and more cultured person. This process doesn't happen without some guidance and real work on the part of participants. The DEI stuff works, and is a good thing.

There are some cases where DEI runs a bit askew. The good intentions come to dominate other considerations and drive the narrative too much. An imposition of dogma, in a way, as @icehorse put it.

Where I first noticed this at the university was in renaming campus buildings. It is not uncommon for a building to be named after an alumni who made a meaningful contribution to society in some way. Today we start having conversations about stripping this person's name from a building because we also happen to have some records indicating they were racist, sexist, homophobic, or whatever.

It's stupid.

Can't we instead have good, adult conversations that our idols are never perfect and that people are complicated? That individuals can do wonderful things while also doing things people today would consider flawed or even criminal? In a way, I see failing to acknowledge and reconcile our pasts as missing a teaching moment for the present. You could use it as a teaching moment about the importance of intersectionality, for gods sakes!

Saint Frankenstein · Jan 24, 2023

icehorse said:
I'm quite concerned about the growing idea that people have a right to not be offended. This idea is foundational to fascism.

You must have an interesting definition of fascism.

SkepticThinker · Jan 24, 2023

Saint Frankenstein said:
There are still many Jungian psychologists. It's just one method to use that many find helpful. I'd rather go to one of them than one who uses Freud's puerile neurotic crap. Just because it's not the most popular doesn't mean it's outdated or useless. It depends on the needs of the patient. Personally, I think Jung was a genius and it seems he rubs people the wrong way because he viewed humans and their needs as more than just physical.

What is Jungian Analysis? - NYAAP - NYC

That was my two cents, as someone who studies psychology.
Jung is just as useless as Freud, and not all that different, imo.

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