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A discussion about death and what may follow.

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
No real fear as to death, even if I might have more to worry about than most if there was some kind of afterlife and the big judgement took place. If death wasn't just the end of life then I will get whatever happens and that will be that. Not much I can do about it - given I can't really go eeny meeny as to choosing which religious belief to accept and then follow the guidance given. Especially when I view the religions as all made up by humans and the 'rewards' offered/proffered seem merely carrots to entice belief. One might cite all kinds of evidence for any such lives after death, but like most things, these are rarely convincing enough so as to be good evidence. :oops:
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
We all die, that's life, there are more pressing things to worry about, like how to live.
Following the first law of thermodynamics and the natural cycle of the universe our atoms are recycled to help build whatever comes after us. Parts of us may go to fertilize the soil or be a tiny bit of a tree, merge with a rock or help form a new life. In that way we are all made of dead people. Looking further ahead after this ball of rock is consumed by our sun it's possible some of our atoms will go to form a new sun or new planet developing life containing some of our atoms.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I don't currently fear death, but I haven't been put in a position where I must consider it greatly.

In regards to what happens after death, I'm open to an afterlife, or no afterlife. Just one thing I've changed my belief on recently is believing in gods according to the definitions I've read. I saw that Wikipedia listed gods as "entities you consider divine and sacred", and if I do end up believing in anything, I don't think I'll ever get the necessary proof in this lifetime that, if I do follow the proof, rather than things like feelings, that I'll be able to say there's something divine or sacred I should worship.

I now think the universe is a bit more complex than that, even. And I'm attempting to stop thinking in such binary terms, even though it's hard.

I believe it's possible for deities to exist, but I don't have any documented evidence for their existence, as I do for the existence of human spirits. At least I haven't seen any, as I have seen human spirits and non-human entities (elemental spirits, an angelic-type being, and demonic entities). As a medium, I've never encountered a non-human being that made me believe it was more significant than the other non-human entities I've seen before. So, I more or less remain an agnostic when it concerns the existence of deities. I believe it's possible that multiple deities could exist, but I'm not exactly certain if they do or not. However, I'm open to the possibility.
 
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Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I believe that how we live determines what happens after we die, so I worry about how I live.

You and I definitely have similar beliefs about the afterlife, but I'm not sure if we entirely agree that a human spirit's experience in the afterlife is influenced by the religious beliefs they held while alive. Personally, I'd rather exclude the biblical God and other gods from the equation. Based on my knowledge and experiences as a medium, there is no guarantee that a person who believed in God before they died will find God in the afterlife. I mentioned the confused spirits who asked me, "Where is God?" and "Why am I not in heaven yet?" in other threads. And while investigating a haunted location with other paranormal investigators, we heard a spirit fretfully say, "The children aren't in heaven yet!" and another asked, "Where is Jesus?" I could sense their confusion at not understanding why they weren't with Jesus, as they believed and were taught to believe before they died. I could feel their fear of not knowing what to do next.

It's because of these experiences and others that I believe the afterlife and crossing over into the spirit world will be quite different than what the majority of Christians and other Abrahamic theists believe about what will happen to people after they die and when they cross over into the spirit world. I've spoken to many spirits over the years who were in total shock and did not know what was going on or what would happen to them. Based on my experiences as a medium, I believe that the Bible is inaccurate in its depictions of death and the spirit world and that it misleads Christians about the afterlife. I have helped cross over human spirits who genuinely believed that they would be in heaven right after they died. They were upset and felt that they had either been misled or deceived.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You and I definitely have similar beliefs about the afterlife, but I'm not sure if we entirely agree that a human spirit's experience in the afterlife is influenced by the religious beliefs they held while alive. Personally, I'd rather exclude the biblical God and other gods from the equation. Based on my knowledge and experiences as a medium, there is no guarantee that a person who believed in God before they died will find God in the afterlife.
I think that a human spirit's experience in the afterlife is influenced by the religious beliefs they held while alive, but that won't necessarily be a positive influence. I think it will depend upon what religious beliefs they held and particularly how rigidly they held them. I tend to believe what the book The Afterlife Revealed says about the afterlife in that regard. I think that many religious people might become 'stuck' in the religious beliefs they held while on earth and that could hold them back and keep them from progressing to higher levels of understanding.

"A century earlier, Andrew Jackson Davis reported that many souls continue to subscribe to the same religious beliefs they held in the physical world. He referred to this sphere, or section of he sphere, as Altolissa. "Jews still believe in the doctrine of their fathers -- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Roman Catholics hold the same views they did before death; and there are other sects in Altolissa who think and believe in the same things and forms of faith they learned on earth," he stated, adding that they are so far below the 'higher planes' that this is required in order to make them feel 'at home.' However, all eventually evolve toward a single understanding of spirit."
(The Afterlife Revealed, p. 118)

I do not believe that anyone will 'find God' in the afterlife (spiritual world). That is based upon what the Baha'i Writings say, that we will always have to relate to God through His Messengers, but the book The Afterlife Revealed also seems to indicate that we will never 'see God' even in the seventh sphere, which is the highest sphere. Elsewhere the book says that we continue to advance within the seventh sphere, but whether we see God or not is not stated.

"And while she had never been to the fifth, sixth, and seventh spheres, she had been told about them. Each one was more magnificent than the sphere below it. The fifth sphere, she was informed, has lovely villas, beautiful temples, forest-crowned hills, and gently undulating pains. She said that she could not begin to describe the sixth and seventh spheres, as her vocabulary was too limited to give a just conception of them. Among the residents of the seventh sphere, she had been informed, were Jesus of Nazareth, John the beloved, Confucius, Seneca, Plato, Socrates, and Solon."
(The Afterlife Revealed, p. 113)
I mentioned the confused spirits who asked me, "Where is God?" and "Why am I not in heaven yet?" in other threads.
It is no small wonder as to why spirits are asking you those questions. Obviously, they had a religious background so they are expecting to 'see' what was promised to them in their scriptures. This is very sad. Baha'is are not promised anything in the afterlife except 'a safe return to God.' I do not know exactly what that means but it does not mean they will actually see God. However, it is possible that some Baha'is might interpret the scriptures that way and be disappointed when they don't see God.
And while investigating a haunted location with other paranormal investigators, we heard a spirit fretfully say, "The children aren't in heaven yet!" and another asked, "Where is Jesus?" I could sense their confusion at not understanding why they weren't with Jesus, as they believed and were taught to believe before they died. I could feel their fear of not knowing what to do next.
Well, according to The Afterlife Revealed, Jesus is in the highest heaven, the seventh sphere, and few people will be in that sphere. Most people will be in the second or third spheres when they die, so they won't be seeing Jesus.
It's because of these experiences and others that I believe the afterlife and crossing over into the spirit world will be quite different than what the majority of Christians and other Abrahamic theists believe about what will happen to people after they die and when they cross over into the spirit world. I've spoken to many spirits over the years who were in total shock and didn't know what was going on or what would happen to them. Based on my experiences as a medium, I believe that the Bible is inaccurate in its depictions of death and the spirit world and that it misleads Christians about the afterlife. I have helped cross over human spirits who genuinely believed that they would be in heaven immediately after they died. They were confused, and I shared their sadness about feeling deceived or mislead.
I fully agree. I think that such false expectations are partly because the Bible is not fully accurate, but also because Christians have misinterpreted their scriptures, and also because no scriptures can adequately depict what the afterlife will be like. At least the Baha'i scriptures acknowledge that.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.”
Gleanings, p. 156

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings, p. 157

Attaining the Presence of God does not mean we will 'see God." it only means we will be closer to God, whatever that means! I believe we will be closer to God in the spiritual world because there won't be any material things that intervene between us and God, things most people are attached in this world. I think that attachment to these material things is one reason there are earthbound spirits, although they might be earthbound for other reasons as well, such as unfinished business.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I think that a human spirit's experience in the afterlife is influenced by the religious beliefs they held while alive, but that won't necessarily be a positive influence. I think it will depend upon what religious beliefs they held and particularly how rigidly they held them. I tend to believe what the book The Afterlife Revealed says about the afterlife in that regard. I think that many religious people might become 'stuck' in the religious beliefs they held while on earth and that could hold them back and keep them from progressing to higher levels of understanding.

"A century earlier, Andrew Jackson Davis reported that many souls continue to subscribe to the same religious beliefs they held in the physical world. He referred to this sphere, or section of he sphere, as Altolissa. "Jews still believe in the doctrine of their fathers -- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Roman Catholics hold the same views they did before death; and there are other sects in Altolissa who think and believe in the same things and forms of faith they learned on earth," he stated, adding that they are so far below the 'higher planes' that this is required in order to make them feel 'at home.' However, all eventually evolve toward a single understanding of spirit."
(The Afterlife Revealed, p. 118)

I do not believe that anyone will 'find God' in the afterlife (spiritual world). That is based upon what the Baha'i Writings say, that we will always have to relate to God through His Messengers, but the book The Afterlife Revealed also seems to indicate that we will never 'see God' even in the seventh sphere, which is the highest sphere. Elsewhere the book says that we continue to advance within the seventh sphere, but whether we see God or not is not stated.

"And while she had never been to the fifth, sixth, and seventh spheres, she had been told about them. Each one was more magnificent than the sphere below it. The fifth sphere, she was informed, has lovely villas, beautiful temples, forest-crowned hills, and gently undulating pains. She said that she could not begin to describe the sixth and seventh spheres, as her vocabulary was too limited to give a just conception of them. Among the residents of the seventh sphere, she had been informed, were Jesus of Nazareth, John the beloved, Confucius, Seneca, Plato, Socrates, and Solon."
(The Afterlife Revealed, p. 113)

It is no small wonder as to why spirits are asking you those questions. Obviously, they had a religious background so they are expecting to 'see' what was promised to them in their scriptures. This is very sad. Baha'is are not promised anything in the afterlife except 'a safe return to God.' I do not know exactly what that means but it does not mean they will actually see God. However, it is possible that some Baha'is might interpret the scriptures that way and be disappointed when they don't see God.

Well, according to The Afterlife Revealed, Jesus is in the highest heaven, the seventh sphere, and few people will be in that sphere. Most people will be in the second or third spheres when they die, so they won't be seeing Jesus.

I fully agree. I think that such false expectations are partly because the Bible is not fully accurate, but also because Christians have misinterpreted their scriptures, and also because no scriptures can adequately depict what the afterlife will be like. At least the Baha'i scriptures acknowledge that.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.”
Gleanings, p. 156

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings, p. 157

Attaining the Presence of God does not mean we will 'see God." it only means we will be closer to God, whatever that means! I believe we will be closer to God in the spiritual world because there won't be any material things that intervene between us and God, things most people are attached in this world. I think that attachment to these material things is one reason there are earthbound spirits, although they might be earthbound for other reasons as well, such as unfinished business.

Great response, my friend. And I need to purchase that book. I'm really curious about it now.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I don't currently have my hopes up for any sort of life after death. I don't really fear death though I hardly relish the thought, lol.

If there is an afterlife, I suspect it's much more complicated and messy than any religion, particularly the fundamentalist ones, have laid out. I suspect that purely because, well, this world is significantly more complicated and messy than our simplistic religious (or other ideological) narratives lay out.

I also believe that the afterlife will be very different from what most religious people, particularly Christians, believe. In my opinion, it is absurd for any religious group of people to believe that they are the only ones who will enjoy the afterlife because of their religious beliefs, and everyone else who doesn't share their beliefs will be in hell. It reminds me of a story that @Trailblazer shared with me.

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. "Heaven," St. Peter says, "is like a huge mansion, with lots of rooms in it. Here, for example, is the room where all of the Jews stay." He opens a door and lets him look inside, where a great many Jews are living.

"Over here," St. Peter says, "is where the Muslims stay." Again, he opens the door and lets the Baha'i look in for a few minutes. "This next room is for the Buddhists." Again, he is shown a room full of people. This goes on for a time, until St. Peter suddenly urges him to remain quiet, and they tiptoe past one more door. Once they're past it, the Baha'i asks, "What's in there, and why do we have to be so quiet?" "Ah," St. Peter says. "That's where the Christians live. They like to think they're the only ones up here."
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I believe that the afterlife is more complicated than the simplistic Christian version of heaven and hell, but it is not more messy.

The book entitled The Afterlife Revealed: What Happens After We Die is my favorite book on the afterlife, and it offers an alternative to the typical religious view. Interestingly, it is similar to the Baha'i view, although the Baha'i Writings don't elaborate on what we will actually experience in the afterlife.

In a chapter entitled Many Mansions, the author describes the seven spheres where people gravitate to in the spiritual world (afterlife). There is a lot more but the book is not online, so I had to type what is below.

"Hare's disincarnate father further explained that a spirit goes to a sphere for which it is morally and intellectually adapted; thus the first sphere above the terrestrial one, i.e., the second sphere, is the abode of "degraded" spirits, meaning not only evil spirits, but "misdirected" ones as well. He pointed out that there are millions of such spirits in the second sphere, what religions call Hell, Hades, or Purgatory, who are groping and unable to free themselves form the fetters of earthly conditions. This sphere is said to be the abode of as many spirits as all the five spheres above it. Nevertheless, contrary to the teachings of many religions, the spirits on this sphere are not permanently confined there as "onward and upward" is the motto of the spirit world. Sooner or later, spirits from higher levels are able to reach them and help them see the light."
(The Afterlife Revealed, pp. 110-111)

This is congruent with what Baha'is believe about the afterlife, that the soul will continue to progress in the spiritual world.

“Silver Birch explained that progression is constant through the spheres of consciousness and that earth provides a variety of learning experiences not available in the spirit world. “The whole object of earthly life is to have a variety of experiences that will fit the spirit for the next stage beyond earth when you have to pass into our world,” he said, further explaining that progress can be “quickened” by earth experience. Many souls, however, in exercising their free will, make wrong choices, thus failing to make significant progress during their earth experiences.

“You must be sharpened, purged, refined,” Silver Birch continued. “You must experience the heights and the depths. You must have the variety of experiences that earth provides for you.””
(Michael Tymn, The Afterlife Revealed, p. 154)

This is also congruent with what Baha'is believe about the purpose of this physical life as preparation for the afterlife.
I just put this on my reading list.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
To me ' death in general ' is the absence of life.
I say this because of what I read in the Bible that Jesus believed death is like 'sleep' at John 11:11-14
What Jesus taught I find agrees with the OT that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18 and Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead know nothing.
So, after death the only hope is a future resurrection back to live life again - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Back to life again on Resurrection Day meaning: during Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth.

Out of curiosity, do you take into account all the other scriptures that mention the afterlife, such as Hebrews 9:27? I'm not asking in an attempt to spark a debate with you; I was just simply wondering what you think of the other verses that I outlined in my post here.

A simple yes or no with a short explanation will suffice because my thread isn't a debate thread. If you'd like to discuss this topic in more detail, then please start a new thread or send me a PM. I've noticed that most Christians don't take all the verses into account.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Out of curiosity, do you take into account all the other scriptures that mention the afterlife, such as Hebrews 9:27?.............................

Thank you for your reply. Interesting question ^ above ^.
I never thought of Hebrews 9:27-28 to be speaking about 'afterlife' (being more alive after death than before death)
To me it is obvious Hebrews was written l-o-n-g after Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14.
Christ died once for all time, and in ancient Israel the high priest foreshadowed Christ - Hebrews 4:14-15
Christ as High Priest - Hebrews 9:11-12; Hebrews 9:24-26 - died for our sins.
We die for our sins - Romans 6:23,7 - but we can't resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. Because, unlike us, Jesus was worthy of a resurrection and is why Jesus can and will resurrect us.
A so-called ' afterlife ' person does Not need a resurrection because they are considered as being alive.
Only the dead need a resurrection, and that is in the future according to Acts of the Apostles 24:15
In the resurrection (Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming thousand-year day) the resurrected ones have the opportunity to never die again, never die a 'second death' die a second time, but are offered everlasting life as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I just put this on my reading list.
Why not put the Bible on you reading list.
Also, with the help of a comprehensive concordance it puts the Bible in ABC order for us and helps in putting the Bible in subject or topic arrangement.

Long before the modern-day idea of afterlife (being more alive after death than before death) the Bible was teaching that the dead are Not conscious but the dead are 'sleeping' just that we can't awaken anyone from death's deep sleep.
This is where ' resurrection ' for the dead comes into the picture.
Resurrection Day is by Christ Jesus to awaken the sleeping dead from death's deep un-conscious sleep.
Resurrection Day: the coming Millennium-Long Day when Jesus governs over Earth for a thousand years.

- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I believe that how we live determines what happens after we die, so I worry about how I live.
Sounds good that we should worry (think about) how we live because on Resurrection Day we would be that same person.
Since ' death ' stamps out the total complete asking price tag for our sins - Romans 6:23,7 - then what we do ' after ' we are resurrected will determine our everlasting life, eternal life or not.
The resurrected righteous should choose to remain righteous
The resurrected un-righteous should choose to become righteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
As far as the wicked are concerned they will be 'destroyed forever ' - Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35
So, to worry/ think about how we live now will determine if we have a resurrection as being righteous or not.
Seems to me the resurrected righteous ones would have it easier to remain righteous.
So, yes, I think we should all consider about how we live now.
Not just because of the Resurrection Promise, but if still alive on Earth as Jesus' coming Glory Time (Matthew 25:31-34,37) we can be counted as being one of the figurative ' sheep ' of verse 37.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Why not put the Bible on you reading list.
Also, with the help of a comprehensive concordance it puts the Bible in ABC order for us and helps in putting the Bible in subject or topic arrangement.

Long before the modern-day idea of afterlife (being more alive after death than before death) the Bible was teaching that the dead are Not conscious but the dead are 'sleeping' just that we can't awaken anyone from death's deep sleep.
This is where ' resurrection ' for the dead comes into the picture.
Resurrection Day is by Christ Jesus to awaken the sleeping dead from death's deep un-conscious sleep.
Resurrection Day: the coming Millennium-Long Day when Jesus governs over Earth for a thousand years.

- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
I have one and have read it through twice. Thx.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I just put this on my reading list.

It's also on my list of books to read. I like to read similar books and follow well-known and legitimate mediums because they validate my own experiences as a medium. My closest friend and mentor is also a medium, so I can talk to her as well. These experiences help me fine-tune my own abilities. I talk to my children about my experiences because they have varying degrees of Clair abilities. My 19-year-old daughter is also a psychic medium. I'm teaching her how to better control her psychic abilities, so that they don't control her.
 
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Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I have one and have read it through twice. Thx.

I read the Bible several times myself during the thirty years I was a Christian, and I reread it after I renounced my Christian faith and belief in God. I also spent nearly five years assisting my nephew in obtaining his Master of Theological Studies degree. As a result, I now know the Bible backwards, forwards, and sideways. When I read the Bible without the influence of my previous Christian faith, I was astounded at how differently I perceived it. I couldn't believe I had ever believed the biblical God was just, loving, and merciful.
 
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