I've Been Thinking About Predestination Again

Musing Bassist said:

If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation.

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That's exactly what scripture says.
The predestination verses are misunderstood by many. I used to not understand them either. No one is caused to choose salvation and no one is exempt from choosing salvation.

RestlessSoul said:

Isn't the doctrine of predestination pretty much exclusive to Calvinists?

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No, there's Presbyterians too.

Musing Bassist said:

The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view. It is a contradiction because if faith is a grace given to those whom God elects then the non-elect are faithless by necessity rather than choice. And to punish people for what they could not have otherwise been does not seem just to me.

God has the power to elect everyone. If God so chose he could guarantee the salvific faith of every human being but instead chooses to do so only for a select few leaving all others to their inevitable damnation. Some say God does this so as to maximize his glory. The elect showcase his mercy while the reprobate showcase his justice. This makes sense to a degree but it commits us to the view that God created the world and all sentient beings simply to make a point of his glory. Which for some reason cannot be fully appreciated unless some are punished eternally. This comes across to me as almost Lovecraftian in implication. The universe as ruled by an omnipotent deity who for his own edification requires the eternal torment of some of the very beings he himself created and claims to love. Are we to believe such is the true face of God?

If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation. The Catholic Church for instance insists that no one is predestined to Hell. But this insistence is sophistry if only some are predestined to Heaven. I have used an example of two drowning children before. To save one and not the other, that is to not intervene and permit the other to drown, is as active a choice as to save one and hold down the other underwater until they have drowned. I don't see a meaningful moral difference between the two.

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Romans 8:29 says...

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...


I think the meaning of predestination has been redefined by Calvinism to an idea and doctrine which is contradictory to the intention of the Bible. I don’t see anywhere that the scriptures say God pre-determined or predestined who would believe the gospel or be saved. Numerous times the scriptures say that whosoever believes will be saved and receive eternal life. Then it says in Romans that those God foreknew would be predestined to be “ conformed to the image of His Son”. What did God foreknow? Certainly those who would believe the gospel. So I believe it’s biblically accurate to say predestination is not in reference to salvation, rather the blessing God determined to bestow upon those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior.

“It’s something that God marked out beforehand as a blessing for certain people; those that He knew would respond to the gospel. So Romans 8, “Whom he foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son...." So the ones that He knew, He marked out beforehand a blessing, "elect according to the foreknowledge..."

Tom: Well that’s the next one: "Election."

Dave: Well, I believe it’s the same thing, election and predestination. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God..." that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Or in Ephesians 1, we are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, again, that we should be holy and without blame before Him as he has predestined us. We are elected to become the sons of God. See, God could save us without making us His children. He could deliver us from His judgment without blessing us to be joint heirs with Christ, so the things that - the blessings that God marked out beforehand, that is what He predestinated us to, or chose us to.

Now the word "chosen" is used in a number of different ways.For example, it doesn't always mean...in fact, as far as I know, it doesn’t mean, ever, "chosen to salvation." You are chosen to a particular work, to a ministry, and it doesn’t necessarily mean you are saved. For example, we just went through John 6 a few weeks ago, and Jesus says, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Is Foreknowledge the Same as Predestination?

Have you read this book?

What Love is This?

Shadow Wolf said:

I fail to see how the nonexistence of free will precludes punishing bad behaviors, defending yourself from those who do harm and facing the consequences of one's actions.

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If we are incapable of deciding, why should we be punished?

Brickjectivity said:

First, is there a trace of predestination? One passage to examine is John 13 in which Jesus says Judas is the one "Doomed to destruction," however Judas has already betrayed Jesus before this statement is made. Looking at John chapter 12 reveals this, so rather than declaring that Judas was predestined to betray he merely knows that the betrayal is in progress. For that reason I do not see Judas betrayal as predestined or something Judas exists to perform. Additionally other NT scriptures state that it is necessary for Jesus to obey and die because of it, but they do not state that he must be betrayed. Also Luke 6:16 states that Judas "Became a traitor." What makes Judas become a traitor? He is a thief. This is established in the story. Rather than being predestined to betray it is part of his character. He goes looking for money, and he is offered some silver.

In the parable of the seeds, everything depends upon what kind of person hears the message. It doesn't matter that the message is small, weak, merely a seed. No particular person is chosen, either. Instead the seed is put everywhere, and what happens is serendipity when a seed falls onto a good spot. This is a parable that excludes predestiny.

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If Jesus Christ had wanted to be crucified, he would have gone to Caiaphas and Annas, and would have turned himself in.
The fact that he hid shows he didn't want to be caught and crucified. And nobody forced Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus. Since he could have desisted. There are countless examples of evil people who desist from doing evil at the last moment.

Brian2 said:

Predestination seems associated with what God foreknew.

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There are schools of thought which claim that. The elect are those who God foresees will cooperate with grace. But other schools of thought emphasize the gratuity of grace. That God elects not on his foreknowledge but on his sovereign will alone.

RestlessSoul said:

Isn't the doctrine of predestination pretty much exclusive to Calvinists?

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No. The debate was never whether predestination exists (which all Christians affirmed) but on how predestination occurs. Does God predestine prior to any foreseen merit? Or does God predestine after and as a result of foreseen merit?

Musing Bassist said:

There are schools of thought which claim that. The elect are those who God foresees will cooperate with grace. But other schools of thought emphasize the gratuity of grace. That God elects not on his foreknowledge but on his sovereign will alone.


No. The debate was never whether predestination exists (which all Christians affirmed) but on how predestination occurs. Does God predestine prior to any foreseen merit? Or does God predestine after and as a result of foreseen merit?

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This, surely, is a circuitous doctrinal diversion which can lead nowhere and resolve nothing? Christ was above all things a moral teacher, and the essence of his teaching could not have been more simple; That you should love each other, as I have loved you.

Musing Bassist said:

There are schools of thought which claim that. The elect are those who God foresees will cooperate with grace. But other schools of thought emphasize the gratuity of grace. That God elects not on his foreknowledge but on his sovereign will alone.


No. The debate was never whether predestination exists (which all Christians affirmed) but on how predestination occurs. Does God predestine prior to any foreseen merit? Or does God predestine after and as a result of foreseen merit?

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I don't see myself as meriting eternal life. It is a gospel of grace all the way through. It is a gift that is not forced onto me when I do not want it however. It is a gift that is reinforced by God in those who accept it however. God changes people to make the election secure and as we move towards Him he moves towards us.
All the best in sorting the problem out.

Musing Bassist said:

The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity...............................

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Coherence of Christianity ? Or _____________________
If some force determined your future, then trying to take care of yourself is pointless.
Choosing to smoke or not smoke would make no difference.
Wearing a seatbelt for safety would also make no difference.
To me it should be obvious that people who take precautions have less bad consequences.
Whereas, careless people can have more tragedies.
There would have been No reason, No point for God to inform Adam as He did that Adam had a choice - Genesis 2:17
People have God-given free will to choose, make decisions to follow God's standards or not.
God "IS" love and He has Justice and teaches to hate the bad and love the good - 1 John 4:8; Amos 5:15; Psalms 37:27-28
We all have the free-will choice to make at Deuteronomy 30:19 to choose life.
Joshua 24:15 says to choose for oneself who you will serve.
Jeremiah 38:20 says to choose to obey so things will go well with you.
Rather than un-scriptural predestination, it can just be wrong place wrong time - Ecclesiastes 9:11- like the people at the Twin Towers destruction in New York and the people mentioned at Luke 13:4-5.
Christianity does Not teach a planned-out future but you make your own decisions.

Parents healthy origin no theism no science. Correct history ours.

Star fall Hurt man's mind by phenomena caused so it wasnt given to all humans.

A God act was sporadic.

Informationn read legally said all human babies innocent. Innocent of sex who only Inherited sin. Sick life. Not guilty said legal.

First adult man not father and not by baby life not as sex sin mind was invented science theist. Told exactly.

Was never a baby who O Inherited sin by sex states the legal reading.

Theists criminal murder were first holy men first. Why it said holy men of God theisms murdered human life....babies Inherited life.

Told exactly.

Men reading bible today as a thesis model are waiting for a four day earthquake as it's part of their used numbered thesis they use now. Collider theoried.

Father said it wouldn't happen as you weren't doing nuclear science underground. Today you do not apply method philosophers stone. Underground pyramid technology.

That returned a higher mass converted presence. In a conversion. You take out so much energy mass now your evil thesis by bible won't work.

Musing Bassist said:

There are schools of thought which claim that. The elect are those who God foresees will cooperate with grace. But other schools of thought emphasize the gratuity of grace. That God elects not on his foreknowledge but on his sovereign will alone.
No. The debate was never whether predestination exists (which all Christians affirmed) but on how predestination occurs. Does God predestine prior to any foreseen merit? Or does God predestine after and as a result of foreseen merit?

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I read John 3:16 like this:
All who do A
will not B
but will have C
A = believe in Him
B = perish
C = everlasting life

It says not a thing, in my opinion, about who will believe or who can believe. It just does not address this issue.

Estro Felino said:

If we are incapable of deciding, why should we be punished?

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Absence of free will doesn't entail that we are incapable of deciding per se. It does entail we couldn't have chosen otherwise though.

Multiple factors influence our choices, such as the fear of punishment, thus making punishment justifiable as a preventative measure.

Plus, people generally don't hold non-human animals as having free will, and yet we easily punish them with death when they happen to kill humans, without even giving a second thought about It. Why does it suddenly become an issue to punish people when we imagine they might also not have free will?

Last but not least, the ones punishing couldn't have decided to refrain from punishing because they also lack free will.

Koldo said:

Absence of free will doesn't entail that we are incapable of deciding per se. It does entail we couldn't have chosen otherwise though.

Multiple factors influence our choices, such as the fear of punishment, thus making punishment justifiable as a preventative measure.

Plus, people generally don't hold non-human animals as having free will, and yet we easily punish them with death when they happen to kill humans, without even giving a second thought about It. Why does it suddenly become an issue to punish people when we imagine they might also not have free will?

Last but not least, the ones punishing couldn't have decided to refrain from punishing because they also lack free will.

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I need you to define free will to understand what you mean here.

Estro Felino said:

I need you to define free will to understand what you mean here.

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The capacity of having chosen otherwise.

Koldo said:

The capacity of having chosen otherwise.

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Perfect. We do have that.
I can show you countless examples of people who desisted from doing evil at the last moment.
Like the case of Mariangela Calcagno, who had a knife in his purse. She was killing Chiara Amirante...but she reconsidered after she saw Chiara's sweetness and love.

She used her free will to go kill that woman.
She used her free will to desist from doing killing that woman.

Estro Felino said:

Perfect. We do have that.
I can show you countless examples of people who desisted from doing evil at the last moment.

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Desisting from doing evil at the last moment doesn't entail the capacity of having chosen otherwise.

The capacity of having chosen otherwise works like this: Let's use your example, if we could rewind time multiple times, would we have seen Mariangela always desisting from killing Chiara? The answer is a resounding yes. It is not just that she reconsidered her actions, but rather that a group of factors made her reconsider her action, thus leading to the necessary consequence of her desisting.

Koldo said:

Desisting from doing evil at the last moment doesn't entail the capacity of having chosen otherwise.

The capacity of having chosen otherwise works like this: Let's use your example, if we could rewind time multiple times, would we have seen Mariangela always desisting from killing Chiara? The answer is a resounding yes. It is not just that she reconsidered her actions, but rather that a group of factors made her reconsider her action, thus leading to the necessary consequence of her desisting.

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That's incorrect.
I am sorry. She has been interviewed many times. She was determined to kill her. And she would have done it, if her Super-Ego hadn't stopped her.

Do rapists have free will? Or they rape because they go into heat and need to possess a woman?
As wildlife males do?

Estro Felino said:

That's incorrect.
I am sorry. She has been interviewed many times. She was determined to kill her. And she would have done it, if her Super-Ego hadn't stopped her.

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You are disagreeing with me and then when providing an explanation you are agreeing with me...

Yes, her super-ego (along with other things) made her stop. Something made her stop.

Do rapists have free will? Or they rape because they go into heat and need to possess a woman?
As wildlife males do?

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No one has free will.
Acting like a non-human animal =/= Not having free will.

Koldo said:

No one has free will.
Acting like a non-human animal =/= Not having free will.

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I am not getting this concept.
The thread here is about predestination. Are evil people predestined to do evil?
No...because they can choose to change.

Estro Felino said:

I am not getting this concept.
The thread here is about predestination. Are evil people predestined to do evil?
No...because they can choose to change.

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Whatever they choose, they couldn't have chosen otherwise. In this sense I would say we are all predestined.