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Immaculate birth of Jesus?

101G

101G

Well-Known Member
Riders said:
Since it is Christmas coming up, do we have any proof? I use to read on another debate forum I use to belong to that Mary was really raped by a Roman soldier. Is there any proof of that?
Click to expand...
addressing your quote, no Mary was nor raped. and addressing your title, the Lord Jesus, God, the Spirit is not born, but as Isaiah clearly say, and the Lord Jesus himself states, he is "given", not born. but the body, "the son of God " that he came in was BORN of the virgin Mary. I have you to understand that the son of God, came out of Mary, flesh, bone and blood. the Son of Man, Spirit, came from Heaven, that dwelled in that body of flesh..

also, Mary was a virgin, meaning she was a "Almah" and not a "Bethulah". also, God, the Lord Jesus himself made that body of flesh in Mary's womb. God can speak and it is done. the method was in the Greek,
G1982 ἐπισκιάζω episkiazo (ep-ee-skee-ad'-zo) v.
1. to cast a shade upon
2. (by analogy) to envelop in a haze of brilliancy
3. (figuratively) to invest with preternatural influence

definition #3. gives us the answer preternatural influence which simply means "out of the ordinary course of nature; exceptional or abnormal". the meaning here, not in the natural way of conception between a man and a women.

101G
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Riders said:
Since it is Christmas coming up, do we have any proof? I use to read on another debate forum I use to belong to that Mary was really raped by a Roman soldier. Is there any proof of that?
Click to expand...
There is no evidence for either of the nativity myths and rather strong evidence against them. For example the author of (almost certainly not) Luke messed up very badly on the dating of it. He implies that Mary got knocked up about 4 BCE and then has hm being born in CE.
 
Dogknox20

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
101G said:
addressing your quote, no Mary was nor raped. and addressing your title, the Lord Jesus, God, the Spirit is not born, but as Isaiah clearly say, and the Lord Jesus himself states, he is "given", not born. but the body, "the son of God " that he came in was BORN of the virgin Mary. I have you to understand that the son of God, came out of Mary, flesh, bone and blood. the Son of Man, Spirit, came from Heaven, that dwelled in that body of flesh..

also, Mary was a virgin, meaning she was a "Almah" and not a "Bethulah". also, God, the Lord Jesus himself made that body of flesh in Mary's womb. God can speak and it is done. the method was in the Greek,
G1982 ἐπισκιάζω episkiazo (ep-ee-skee-ad'-zo) v.
1. to cast a shade upon
2. (by analogy) to envelop in a haze of brilliancy
3. (figuratively) to invest with preternatural influence

definition #3. gives us the answer preternatural influence which simply means "out of the ordinary course of nature; exceptional or abnormal". the meaning here, not in the natural way of conception between a man and a women.

101G
Click to expand...
.
101G good to meet you....
I reply good post... And add God is Spirit the Word is Spirit the Holy Spirit is Spirit... All Spirit! The Word became flesh and lived with us!
The Word was formed in the womb of Mary when he was Born "Man" God gained the title "Father"! When Jesus was born Jesus gained the title "Son of God"! When Jesus was born Mary gained the title "Mother of God"! NO....

101G no man gains the title "Father" until a mother gives birth! Jesus is truly "Son of Man and Son of God"!
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Riders said:
Since it is Christmas coming up, do we have any proof? I use to read on another debate forum I use to belong to that Mary was really raped by a Roman soldier. Is there any proof of that?
Click to expand...

This is a very good question. Proof depends greatly on one’s beliefs. If one accepts that there is an All Knowing God Who speaks to us through Messengers and Prophets then the Virgin Birth is confirmed in the Gospels, the Quran and in the Writings of Baha’u’llah because in all these Holy Writings which the followers believe came from God, the virgin birth is confirmed. To believers whatever God reveals is truth, fact and proof and no further questioning is necessary.

But to those who do not accept God then this can never be proven. However it is possible to be a virgin today and be artificially inseminated so strictly speaking a virgin birth is possible scientifically to my knowledge. But being born of the ‘Spirit of God’ would be something else.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
loverofhumanity said:
This is a very good question. Proof depends greatly on one’s beliefs. If one accepts that there is an All Knowing God Who speaks to us through Messengers and Prophets then the Virgin Birth is confirmed in the Gospels, the Quran and in the Writings of Baha’u’llah because in all these Holy Writings which the followers believe came from God, the virgin birth is confirmed. To believers whatever God reveals is truth, fact and proof and no further questioning is necessary.

But to those who do not accept God then this can never be proven. However it is possible to be a virgin today and be artificially inseminated so strictly speaking a virgin birth is possible scientifically to my knowledge. But being born of the ‘Spirit of God’ would be something else.
Click to expand...
The problem with people of faith is that they do not understand what proper proof is. Your statement only shows that you have confirmation bias. Not proof. Please note that you already had to believe the myths to accept a weak source.

That there is no historical evidence for the nativity myths and instead there is only evidence against them is rather indicative that they never happened.
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Subduction Zone said:
The problem with people of faith is that they do not understand what proper proof is. Your statement only shows that you have confirmation bias. Not proof. Please note that you already had to believe the myths to accept a weak source.

That there is no historical evidence for the nativity myths and instead there is only evidence against them is rather indicative that they never happened.
Click to expand...

That’s only your own bias that there is no God. To me God is as real as the sun in the sky so proof from God to me is sufficient.
 
101G

101G

Well-Known Member
Dogknox20 said:
.
101G good to meet you....
I reply good post... And add God is Spirit the Word is Spirit the Holy Spirit is Spirit... All Spirit! The Word became flesh and lived with us!
The Word was formed in the womb of Mary when he was Born "Man" God gained the title "Father"! When Jesus was born Jesus gained the title "Son of God"! When Jesus was born Mary gained the title "Mother of God"! NO....

101G no man gains the title "Father" until a mother gives birth! Jesus is truly "Son of Man and Son of God"!
Click to expand...
GINOLJC, to all,
Good 2 meet you Dogknox20.
yes, God is Spirit, meaning the Word is Spirits, and he "took on Flesh". but please note, spirits of man are given, and not formed in the womb. for God give us spirits, and when we die which is the first death, (of the flesh), the spirit returns to God who gave it, scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" the Word, which is spirit is not formed nor born of woman. what was formed and born of Mary was flesh, bone, and blood. the temple that the Lord Jesus God cane and dwell in.

the Son of God, which is flesh bone and Blood came out of Mary, scripture, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." so the Son of God, flesh is born, not the Son of man.

the Son of Man, which is spirit, came out from Heaven, scripture. John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."
if he's not of this world, then he is not born of this world. Again, the Son of Man is Given, and not born.

agreed, Mary is not the Mother of God, she is only the sorrgent mother to the body/temple that God came in.

Now, concerning God title as Father. in the ECHAD of God, the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') the LORD, all Cap has that title "Father", already when he created and made all things. and the same one God, bare the title Son in the ECHAD when he came in Flesh.

so, understand, the Outward man is called the Son of God, flesh bone and blood. the Inward man is called the Son of Man.

and as for the title "Father" in the Son of God case, then that title belongs to the Holy Ghost, who is LORD. supportive scripture, Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." QUESTION, is not the conceiver of the Child is the Father of the Child?

Hope this Helps,

be blessed in the Lord JESUS,

101G.
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Riders said:
Since it is Christmas coming up, do we have any proof? I use to read on another debate forum I use to belong to that Mary was really raped by a Roman soldier. Is there any proof of that?
Click to expand...
I'd believe that over the obvious mythology.

Assuming of course Mary was even. if ever, based on a real person.
 
Dogknox20

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
loverofhumanity said:
This is a very good question. Proof depends greatly on one’s beliefs. If one accepts that there is an All Knowing God Who speaks to us through Messengers and Prophets then the Virgin Birth is confirmed in the Gospels, the Quran and in the Writings of Baha’u’llah because in all these Holy Writings which the followers believe came from God, the virgin birth is confirmed. To believers whatever God reveals is truth, fact and proof and no further questioning is necessary.

But to those who do not accept God then this can never be proven. However it is possible to be a virgin today and be artificially inseminated so strictly speaking a virgin birth is possible scientifically to my knowledge. But being born of the ‘Spirit of God’ would be something else.
Click to expand...

loverofhumanity I agree with you... Holy Writings which the followers believe came from God!
The scriptures tell us "Jesus built his Church on Rock it will never fail"! Scriptures tell us Jesus did not build on sand Jesus is Not a fool!
Matthew 7:26
But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
The Church Jesus established is still here on earth it did not fail!

Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”
loverofhumanity Jesus is always with his Church to the very end of the world! This means Jesus is always with his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, he never left her!
One: Because Jesus only established One Church on Rock!
Holy: Because God is Holy his Body must be Holy!
Catholic: Because God is everywhere!
Apostolic: Because the Church Jesus established has roots going back to the Apostles!
 
Dogknox20

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
101G said:
GINOLJC, to all,
Good 2 meet you Dogknox20.
yes, God is Spirit, meaning the Word is Spirits, and he "took on Flesh". but please note, spirits of man are given, and not formed in the womb. for God give us spirits, and when we die which is the first death, (of the flesh), the spirit returns to God who gave it, scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" the Word, which is spirit is not formed nor born of woman. what was formed and born of Mary was flesh, bone, and blood. the temple that the Lord Jesus God cane and dwell in.

the Son of God, which is flesh bone and Blood came out of Mary, scripture, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." so the Son of God, flesh is born, not the Son of man.

the Son of Man, which is spirit, came out from Heaven, scripture. John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."
if he's not of this world, then he is not born of this world. Again, the Son of Man is Given, and not born.

agreed, Mary is not the Mother of God, she is only the sorrgent mother to the body/temple that God came in.

Now, concerning God title as Father. in the ECHAD of God, the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') the LORD, all Cap has that title "Father", already when he created and made all things. and the same one God, bare the title Son in the ECHAD when he came in Flesh.

so, understand, the Outward man is called the Son of God, flesh bone and blood. the Inward man is called the Son of Man.

and as for the title "Father" in the Son of God case, then that title belongs to the Holy Ghost, who is LORD. supportive scripture, Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." QUESTION, is not the conceiver of the Child is the Father of the Child?

Hope this Helps,

be blessed in the Lord JESUS,
101G.
Click to expand...
.
101G thank you for your post... I point you to Acts 2
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Clearly (above) The Baptized gain "The Holy Spirit"!
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Clearly (above) 3000 were Added to the Body of Jesus by Baptism! I must point out God has only one Son "Jesus"! To be called Child of God you must be Added to the Body of Jesus! Baptism adds you!

101G I also point you to Matthew 12...
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.

Clearly (above) "Jesus is Brother to Disciples"! Disciples then must then be In the Body of Jesus: To call Jesus "Brother" you must be in God' family! If Jesus is your brother, then God Must be your father!

101G I point you to Matthew 28
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ...

Clearly (above) Baptism makes Disciples!
Thus, it is Baptism that makes Jesus your brother!
And then it is Baptism makes God' children!
Again, I point you to Acts 2 Baptism adds us to the body of God' only Son!

Jesus is a Man he is also God!
Christians have always worshiped Jesus their God! The Apostle Thomas is a Christian!
101G I point you to John 20
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Clearly (above) Christians today are "Blessed" because they also believe as the Apostles!
Clearly those today who reject Christians are NOT Blessed!
 
Sand Dancer

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Dogknox20 said:
Riders good to meet you: Mary "The Mother of the King" remained a virgin! The early Christians have always taught Mary was a perpetual virgin!

The Early Christians have always said Mary was Holy!

31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So, the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Click to expand...
The perpetual virgin story isn't original I don't think. Plus Jesus had younger siblings.
 
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101G

101G

Well-Known Member
thanks for the reply.
Dogknox20 said:
101G thank you for your post... I point you to Acts 2
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
yes, after repentance first and baptism one receives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.
Dogknox20 said:
I must point out God has only one Son "Jesus"! To be called Child of God you must be Added to the Body of Jesus! Baptism adds you!
Click to expand...
when you say son, are you using it as a biological son? or metaphorically of prominent moral characteristics, which one?
Dogknox20 said:
I also point you to Matthew 12...
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
Click to expand...
Brother here is of the Faith and not of blood.
G80 ἀδελφός adelphos (a-d̮el-fos') n.
1. a brother.
2. (of faith) a brother in our Lord, Jesus.
{literally or figuratively; near or remote; much like G1}
[from G1 (as a connective particle) and delphus “the womb”]
KJV: brother

but the Lord Jesus is neither FULL BLOOD. HALF BLOOD, nor UTERINE BLOOD, with his birth Mother or his Birth mother sibling.
Dogknox20 said:
Jesus is a Man he is also God!
Click to expand...
I must disagree with you there. the Lord Jesus is in LIKENESS, as human, but, but is the TRUE, and PERFECT Man to come... meaning Glorified. just as angels are men, but he's not an angel. he's God, the TRUE man, remember we're in his image. he is the TRUE MAN/Source we're HIS image.
Dogknox20 said:
Christians have always worshiped Jesus their God! The Apostle Thomas is a Christian!
101G I point you to John 20
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Click to expand...
true for JESUS is the ONLY TRUE GOD in the ECHAD of himself. see 1 Tim 6:16.
Dogknox20 said:
Clearly (above) Christians today are "Blessed" because they also believe as the Apostles!
Clearly those today who reject Christians are NOT Blessed!
Click to expand...
?

101G
 
101G

101G

Well-Known Member
Sand Dancer said:
he perpetual virgin story isn't original I don't think. Plus Jesus had younger siblings.
Click to expand...
Correct, Mary is no longer a virgin, for, Matthew 1:24 "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:" Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

Joseph had sex with Mary after she birth the body that the Lord Jesus came into. the perpetual virgin story, is just that a story, an untruth,

101G
 
101G

101G

Well-Known Member
One must understand, the Lord Jesus is God in Flesh. God has no mother or Father. the flesh he came in have ,,,,, a BITH MOTHER ONLY, and that's by Mary being a sorrgent mother to the flesh, our saviour came in.

101G
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
loverofhumanity said:
That’s only your own bias that there is no God. To me God is as real as the sun in the sky so proof from God to me is sufficient.
Click to expand...
What makes you say that? If you are going to accuse others of bias you need evidence for it. And no, you simply do not know what evidence is. One cannot use a source unless it has been shown to be reliable. The Bible fails in quite a few ways when it comes to being reliable.
 
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