With bafflement upon bafflement!

Redemptionsong said:

The only evidence for overcoming sin is in overcoming death, since death is the wages of sin.

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Incomplete! Death is the wages of unrepentent sin. Again Ezekiel 18.

All in Adam die, and it follows that evidence of a soul not dying needs to be shown to prove sinlessness.

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False. Sinlessness can be shown, again in Deuteronomy 28. If all the commandments are followed, there is no sin. A list of blessings result. Ressurection is not on the list.

People assume, "he must have been sinless he rose from the dead." But that assumption has no basis. Satan can create the illusion of ressurection. Is he not the Christian god of the earth?

dybmh said:

Incomplete! Death is the wages of unrepentent sin. Again Ezekiel 18.False. Sinlessness can be shown, again in Deuteronomy 28. If all the commandments are followed, there is no sin. A list of blessings result. Ressurection is not on the list.

People assume, "he must have been sinless he rose from the dead." But that assumption has no basis. Satan can create the illusion of ressurection. Is he not the Christian god of the earth?

Click to expand...

Death is the wages of sin. Full-stop. Not everyone will repent.

Ezekiel 18:3. 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die'.

Ezekiel 18:21,22. 'But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done shall he live.'

And what does repentance actually involve? If you imagine that your repentance is to do with not observing the Sabbath, you will repent of what you believe you are guilty of not observing. This is why it is necessary to observe all the law. That way, you have nothing more to put right.

Ezekiel 18:31,32. 'Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
For l have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye'.

How is the house of lsrael to make a new heart and spirit for itself?

Redemptionsong said:

Death is the wages of sin. Full-stop. Not everyone will repent.

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So "Death is the wages of sin" is NOT TRUE for the repentent. Saying "Death is the wages for sin" without qualification is INCOMPLETE. That is precisely what I said. That is lying by omission. Making it seem like anyone who sins will die, is false, per scripture. Paul is, yet again, leading people astray.

Redemptionsong said:

Ezekiel 18:3. 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die'.

Ezekiel 18:21,22. 'But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done shall he live.'

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See! Death is the wages of sin for the unrepentent. That's true. Death is the wages for sin unqualified, is false. Christian theology does not match with true authentic ancient Judaism from the words of The LORD.

Redemptionsong said:

And what does repentance actually involve?

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Psalms 51 specifically at the end.

Redemptionsong said:

If you imagine that your repentance is to do with not observing the Sabbath, you will repent of what you believe you are guilty of not observing. This is why it is necessary to observe all the law. That way, you have nothing more to put right.

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This is ignorant of Jewish practice. During the Tachanun, practiced several times a week, we repent for unintentional sins, sins of the community, and even sins we have not committed. It's complete repentence. Please read it here: Weekday Siddur Sefard Linear, Mincha, Tachanun 212

Redemptionsong said:

Ezekiel 18:31,32. 'Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
For l have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye'.

How is the house of lsrael to make a new heart and spirit for itself?

Click to expand...

The key word in the last verse is "turn". This is the same wording used in Joel and in Hosea. It's the Jewish concept of "return" or in Hebrew it's called "Teshuvah". The root word "Shuv" meaning "turn" is repeated here in Ezekiel, but also in Joel and Hosea.

Google search results for Teshuvah: https://www.google.com/search?q=tes...-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

I encourage you to look at those search results to confirm that this is a universal concept in Judaism. All denominations are included.

Some people are deemed, "Masters of Teshuvah" a "Baal Teshuvah". The Baal Teshuvah gets a new heart and spirit.

And this is scriptural based on Ezekiel, Joel, Hosea. All speak about return.

dybmh said:

So "Death is the wages of sin" is NOT TRUE for the repentent. Saying "Death is the wages for sin" without qualification is INCOMPLETE. That is precisely what I said. That is lying by omission. Making it seem like anyone who sins will die, is false, per scripture. Paul is, yet again, leading people astray.

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No, Paul is not leading people astray. What he says is perfectly accurate.

You say that 'the wages of sin is death' is not the whole truth, yet you wouldn't deny that everyone has to pass through a physical death. So, in one sense, at least, the statement is perfectly accurate. The question that remains is whether death of the soul, which is for eternity, also awaits the sinner.

Even a repentant sinner passes through physical decay, and physical death.

When Adam sinned, he died in 'a day', as God had warned [Genesis 2:17]. It was spiritual separation from God, or sin, that caused his death.

If separation from the Holy Spirit brings death, then the outpouring of the Holy Spirit brings life.

Redemptionsong said:

No, Paul is not leading people astray. What he says is perfectly accurate.

You say that 'the wages of sin is death' is not the whole truth, yet you wouldn't deny that everyone has to pass through a physical death. So, in one sense, at least, the statement is perfectly accurate.

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No sir. Physical death can happen simply because God demands it / requires it. Please see the end of Genesis 9:5. Which fits with Ezekiel 18 speaking about spiritual life and death. Certainly sin *can* cause physical death; but it's not a test for sinlessness.

The metrics are given in Deuteronomy 28. Success has a list of blessings. ( a good chunk of those are acheived already ). Failure has a list of curses ( maybe one or two of those have happened, but most of them is a hard no ).

Redemptionsong said:

The question that remains is whether death of the soul, which is for eternity, also awaits the sinner.

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It really doesn't matter one way or the other since the question is are the wages of sin always death? It's not always true physically; it's not always true spiritually. It's NOT always true. Paul was wrong.

Redemptionsong said:

Even a repentant sinner passes through physical decay, and physical death.

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And so do the righteous. This is actually pretty easy. Christians filled with the Holy Spirit are sinless and they still grow old and die. Therefore, even the righteous age and die physically. Physical death / resurrection indicates absolutley nothing about sin.

Redemptionsong said:

When Adam sinned, he died in 'a day', as God had warned [Genesis 2:17]. It was spiritual separation from God, or sin, that caused his death.

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Or God had mercy, reduced the sentence, and Adam's work in the fields atoned for his sin. and he lived for approx. 1000 years.

Redemptionsong said:

If separation from the Holy Spirit brings death, then the outpouring of the Holy Spirit brings life.

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First problem. The serpent was cursed yet was not kicked out of the garden. It did not get seperated from the tree of life. So even the serpent, the villian of the story, retains its proximity to the Holy Spirit. Maybe it was prohibited from eatng the tree, maybe not, but it has nothing to do with seperation from the tree.

Next problem: The tree was created by God, it did not pre-exist with God.

Next problem: The tree was not a creative force, so it is not "the word".

So is the tree of life the Holy Spirit? not really, but if it is then the Holy Spirit isn't Christ. So you can pick one or the other.

dybmh said:

So "Death is the wages of sin" is NOT TRUE for the repentent. Saying "Death is the wages for sin" without qualification is INCOMPLETE. That is precisely what I said. That is lying by omission. Making it seem like anyone who sins will die, is false, per scripture. Paul is, yet again, leading people astray.

Click to expand...

'Death is the wages of sin'. This is true in itself. You are arguing that it is not true for a person who turns from sin! That's an entirely new statement!

You have then made a false comparison between the sin of Adam and blessings and cursings under the law of Moses (Deuteronomy 28).

Adam was created body, soul and spirit. His (wife's) sin affected every part of Adam's being, beginning with his spirit. When sin entered his life, the Holy Spirit left him. This is why the Lord asked, Where art thou? The spiritual communion had been broken. Adam's soul and body would then die within the day (within a thousand years).

The generations of Adam are all born in sin, separated from the Holy Spirit. The whole story of humanity from then onwards is a story of preparation for the coming salvation of God. The law of Moses was not a permanent solution; it was only a temporary covenant. The reason it was not an everlasting covenant is precisely because of sin, not because the law was not good and holy.

If Jews have the solution to righteous living under the law, then they should be able to live righteously before God now. This is not living by faith in the righteousness of God (Christ), because that is only possible through faith in Jesus, who was sent to pay the price for Adam's sin.

Without Adam's sin being justly accounted for (in life over death), there can be no solution to the problem of death. A life lived perfectly is the only just recompense for Adam's sin.

If you can live a sinless life, then you will have conquered death, because 'death is the wages of sin'. Without such perfection, there can be no eternal life.

Faith is the recognition that only God is able to achieve this perfection. And if Jesus was not the Son of God, then we have no Saviour from sin. No one else has achieved what he achieved. IMO.

Redemptionsong said:

'Death is the wages of sin'. This is true in itself. You are arguing that it is not true for a person who turns from sin! That's an entirely new statement!

You have then made a false comparison between the sin of Adam and blessings and cursings under the law of Moses (Deuteronomy 28).

Adam was created body, soul and spirit. His (wife's) sin affected every part of Adam's being, beginning with his spirit. When sin entered his life, the Holy Spirit left him. This is why the Lord asked, Where art thou? The spiritual communion had been broken. Adam's soul and body would then die within the day (within a thousand years).

The generations of Adam are all born in sin, separated from the Holy Spirit. The whole story of humanity from then onwards is a story of preparation for the coming salvation of God. The law of Moses was not a permanent solution; it was only a temporary covenant. The reason it was not an everlasting covenant is precisely because of sin, not because the law was not good and holy.

If Jews have the solution to righteous living under the law, then they should be able to live righteously before God now. This is not living by faith in the righteousness of God (Christ), because that is only possible through faith in Jesus, who was sent to pay the price for Adam's sin.

Without Adam's sin being justly accounted for (in life over death), there can be no solution to the problem of death. A life lived perfectly is the only just recompense for Adam's sin.

If you can live a sinless life, then you will have conquered death, because 'death is the wages of sin'. Without such perfection, there can be no eternal life.

Faith is the recognition that only God is able to achieve this perfection. And if Jesus was not the Son of God, then we have no Saviour from sin. No one else has achieved what he achieved. IMO.

Click to expand...

" 'Death is the wages of sin' "

(Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah did not say it, why follow Hellenist Paul- a sinful person himself, right??

Regards

paarsurrey said:

" 'Death is the wages of sin' "

(Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah did not say it, why follow Hellenist Paul- a sinful person himself, right??

Regards

Click to expand...

Paul was a saved sinner when he spoke these words. If you wish to read about Paul's baptism in the Holy Spirit, then read Acts 9:17.

Do you not believe that all men are born of Adam, and are born in sin?

Redemptionsong said:

'Death is the wages of sin'. This is true in itself. You are arguing that it is not true for a person who turns from sin! That's an entirely new statement!

Click to expand...

We know that wages of sin is not a physical death because saved Christians still grow old and die.

Therefore Jesus's ressurection is not a measure of sinlessness.

Redemptionsong said:

You have then made a false comparison between the sin of Adam and blessings and cursings under the law of Moses (Deuteronomy 28).

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No. These are two seperate points.

1) Ressurection is not a metric for whether or not the law is followed properly. That's Deuteronomy 28.

2) In the story of Adam ( if it was physical death penalty ) we see that a death penalty can be reduced by the LORD. Sin does not *always* result in death.

and then there's the third point, which you ignored, Genesis 9:5 says that God can demand the soul of anyone. So death could come to the righteous. Innocent children die... etc.

Redemptionsong said:

Adam was created body, soul and spirit. His (wife's) sin affected every part of Adam's being, beginning with his spirit. When sin entered his life, the Holy Spirit left him. This is why the Lord asked, Where art thou? The spiritual communion had been broken. Adam's soul and body would then die within the day (within a thousand years).

Click to expand...

1) We know that Adam sinned because he confessed. ( Genesis 3:12 ) Adam admits "I ate".

2) A day here is not a 1000 years. Again, you're ignoring the details of the verse. The verse says "with God a thousand years is like a day". If Adam is spererate from God due to sin then the verse doesn't apply. Adam was no longer "with God". Anyway, the actual source is from Psalms 90:4. Where "in God's eyes" a 1000 years are like a day when it has passed. That is reducing time, not expanding time, and it's only in God's perception.

Redemptionsong said:

The generations of Adam are all born in sin, separated from the Holy Spirit. The whole story of humanity from then onwards is a story of preparation for the coming salvation of God. The law of Moses was not a permanent solution; it was only a temporary covenant. The reason it was not an everlasting covenant is precisely because of sin, not because the law was not good and holy.

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OY! So completely false!

The Holy Spirit is the source of prophecy! If ALL generatons born from Adam are seperated from the Holy Spirit then there would be NO prophets. Not only that, this is completely FALSE per our shared scripture. I think I gave you this list before.

Next problem. You don't seem to know Leviticus very well. The words "statute forever" occur 14 times. Specifically, the priesthood belongs to the Aaron's sons... forever. But also the day of atonement, and others. You can search for it in the KJV as "statute for ever".

We also know that circumcision is an eternal covenant along with Shabbat.

Redemptionsong said:

If Jews have the solution to righteous living under the law, then they should be able to live righteously before God now.

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And some do.

Redemptionsong said:

This is not living by faith in the righteousness of God (Christ),

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Yes. Jews are not in faith with Christ the false prophet.

Redemptionsong said:

because that is only possible through faith in Jesus, who was sent to pay the price for Adam's sin.

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Nah. The curse on Adam was lifted after the flood. See here:

Genesis 3:17-18

Genesis 8:21

Redemptionsong said:

Without Adam's sin being justly accounted for (in life over death), there can be no solution to the problem of death.

Click to expand...

The sin didn't cause Adam's physical death.
If there's a solution it doesn't involve physical life, physical death, nor a physical ressurection.

Redemptionsong said:

A life lived perfectly is the only just recompense for Adam's sin.

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Not true. The punishment is excessive compared to the crime. This is easily seen in the story.

Adam eats something forbidden. The punishment incurred is toiling over what he eats. That's "just recompense", not physical death.

If Adam killed someone, then death would be just.

Redemptionsong said:

If you can live a sinless life, then you will have conquered death, because 'death is the wages of sin'. Without such perfection, there can be no eternal life.

Click to expand...

Or. If you live a sinful life, but repent completely and change your ways, then you will have conquered death and recieve eternal life. Again Ezekiel 18. No Jesus is needed. Sin is forgiven, and eternal life is granted. ( and the large point, ressurection means nothing regarding sin )

Redemptionsong said:

Faith is the recognition that only God is able to achieve this perfection.

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No. The repentent and the righteous both can acheive this perfection. That's the power of rightousness and repentence.

Redemptionsong said:

And if Jesus was not the Son of God, then we have no Saviour from sin.

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The LORD doesn't need to have a son to save you. The LORD is All-mighty!

Psalm 62:2-3


Jastrow, אַךְ I 1

dybmh said:

We know that wages of sin is not a physical death because saved Christians still grow old and die.

Therefore Jesus's ressurection is not a measure of sinlessness.

No. These are two seperate points.

1) Ressurection is not a metric for whether or not the law is followed properly. That's Deuteronomy 28.

2) In the story of Adam ( if it was physical death penalty ) we see that a death penalty can be reduced by the LORD. Sin does not *always* result in death.

and then there's the third point, which you ignored, Genesis 9:5 says that God can demand the soul of anyone. So death could come to the righteous. Innocent children die... etc.



1) We know that Adam sinned because he confessed. ( Genesis 3:12 ) Adam admits "I ate".

2) A day here is not a 1000 years. Again, you're ignoring the details of the verse. The verse says "with God a thousand years is like a day". If Adam is spererate from God due to sin then the verse doesn't apply. Adam was no longer "with God". Anyway, the actual source is from Psalms 90:4. Where "in God's eyes" a 1000 years are like a day when it has passed. That is reducing time, not expanding time, and it's only in God's perception.


OY! So completely false!

The Holy Spirit is the source of prophecy! If ALL generatons born from Adam are seperated from the Holy Spirit then there would be NO prophets. Not only that, this is completely FALSE per our shared scripture. I think I gave you this list before.

Judges 3:10, Judges 6:34, Judges 11:29, Judges 13:25, Judges 14:6, Judges 15:14, 1 Samuel 16:13, 2 Samuel 23:2, Ezekiel 11:5, Micah 3:8
​

Next problem. You don't seem to know Leviticus very well. The words "statute forever" occur 14 times. Specifically, the priesthood belongs to the Aaron's sons... forever. But also the day of atonement, and others. You can search for it in the KJV as "statute for ever".

We also know that circumcision is an eternal covenant along with Shabbat.


And some do.

Yes. Jews are not in faith with Christ the false prophet.

Nah. The curse on Adam was lifted after the flood. See here:

Genesis 3:17-18

17And to man He said, "Because you listened to your wife, and you ate from the tree from which I commanded you saying, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed be the earth for your sake; with toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life.
18And it will cause thorns and thistles to grow for you, and you shall eat the herbs of the field.
​

Genesis 8:21

21And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.​

The sin didn't cause Adam's physical death.
If there's a solution it doesn't involve physical life, physical death, nor a physical ressurection.

Not true. The punishment is excessive compared to the crime. This is easily seen in the story.

Adam eats something forbidden. The punishment incurred is toiling over what he eats. That's "just recompense", not physical death.

If Adam killed someone, then death would be just.

Or. If you live a sinful life, but repent completely and change your ways, then you will have conquered death and recieve eternal life. Again Ezekiel 18. No Jesus is needed. Sin is forgiven, and eternal life is granted. ( and the large point, ressurection means nothing regarding sin )

No. The repentent and the righteous both can acheive this perfection. That's the power of rightousness and repentence.

The LORD doesn't need to have a son to save you. The LORD is All-mighty!

Psalm 62:2-3

ב אַ֣ךְ אֶל־אֱ֖לֹהִים דֽוּמִיָּ֣ה נַפְשִׁ֑י מִ֜מֶּ֗נּוּ יְשֽׁוּעָתִֽי

2 Only to God does my soul hope for silently; from Him is my salvation.

ג אַךְ־ה֣וּא צ֖וּרִי וִישֽׁוּעָתִ֑י מִ֜שְׂגַּבִּ֗י לֹֽא־אֶמּ֥וֹט רַבָּֽה​

3 Only He is my Rock and my salvation, my stronghold so that I shall not falter greatly.
​

Jastrow, אַךְ I 1

Click to expand...

One's following points are very good and truthful points and I appreciate them:

1. We know that wages of sin is not a physical death because saved Christians still grow old and die.
2. Resurrection is not a metric for whether or not the law is followed properly.
3. In the story of Adam ( if it was physical death penalty ) we see that a death penalty can be reduced by the LORD. Sin does not *always* result in death.
4. God can demand the soul of anyone. So death could come to the righteous. Innocent children die... etc.
5. circumcision is an eternal covenant.
6. If you live a sinful life, but repent completely and change your ways, then you will have conquered death and receive eternal life.
7. The LORD (G-d) doesn't need to have a son to save you. The LORD (G-d) is All-mighty!

Jesus*- the mythical creation of the Hellenist Paul differs, as is obvious, from the truthful Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah* as also from Second Coming 1835-1908, one gets to know, even from many clues in the Gospels itself, please, right?

Regards
_________
* who never died on the Cross, and therefore was never resurrected from the dead for atonement of anybody's sins, and never ascended to heaven from Galilee, one finds from many clues in the Gospels itself.

dybmh said:

The Holy Spirit is the source of prophecy! If ALL generatons born from Adam are seperated from the Holy Spirit then there would be NO prophets. Not only that, this is completely FALSE per our shared scripture. I think I gave you this list before.

Judges 3:10, Judges 6:34, Judges 11:29, Judges 13:25, Judges 14:6, Judges 15:14, 1 Samuel 16:13, 2 Samuel 23:2, Ezekiel 11:5, Micah 3:8
Next problem. You don't seem to know Leviticus very well. The words "statute forever" occur 14 times. Specifically, the priesthood belongs to the Aaron's sons... forever. But also the day of atonement, and others. You can search for it in the KJV as "statute for ever".

Click to expand...

There's a difference between God's Spirit resting upon a prophet at the time of God's choosing, and the people of God collectively walking by his Spirit. Why would Jeremiah [31:33], and Ezekiel [36:25-27], indicate a future time when Israel would come to know God in Spirit and truth if lsrael already communed in this manner?

Jesus said, 'Verily, l say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.'

What applies to John the Baptist applies to all the Hebrew prophets. They were able to prophesy by the Spirit of God, but they did not know the Lord through the promise of a new heart and spirit. This was a future promise, made to Abraham, and fulfilled in the seed of Abraham and David. That seed begins with one man and takes the form of an eternal covenant.

The things said in Leviticus about an everlasting priesthood did not find fulfilment in the sons of Aaron, but in Christ! The body of Christ, collectively, are a priesthood!

Here are the words of Hebrews 7:11-16.

dybmh said:

The LORD doesn't need to have a son to save you. The LORD is All-mighty!

Psalm 62:2-3

ב אַ֣ךְ אֶל־אֱ֖לֹהִים דֽוּמִיָּ֣ה נַפְשִׁ֑י מִ֜מֶּ֗נּוּ יְשֽׁוּעָתִֽי

2 Only to God does my soul hope for silently; from Him is my salvation.

ג אַךְ־ה֣וּא צ֖וּרִי וִישֽׁוּעָתִ֑י מִ֜שְׂגַּבִּ֗י לֹֽא־אֶמּ֥וֹט רַבָּֽה
3 Only He is my Rock and my salvation, my stronghold so that I shall not falter greatly.

Click to expand...

How can you read this and not see the Son?!

It says, 'from Him is my salvation'. So, how does God save?

It was a man, Adam (with Eve), who sinned against God, and justice demands that a man die to pay the penalty for sin. But who can live perfectly righteously if they are wallowing in a mire that prevents self-extrication? Sin stands in the way of righteous living, and the root of sin lies in 'fallen' flesh. Until the lust of the flesh is conquered, there will be a continual struggle between the flesh and the spirit. This is why it is that only God can save. Yet, to do so, God must appear on earth amongst men.

NT scripture tells us that Jesus, lmmanuel, lived a sinless life, and his body was put to death on the cross. His soul was then raised in a renewed spiritual body. From heaven the Holy Spirit was sent to fill the 'body of Christ', the Church, on earth.

Jesus' crucifixion was 'a once for all time' sacrifice for sin. It was an eternal payment that needs no repetition.

When you talk about the need for repentance, you are suggesting a temporary solution. In your own strength you turn from sin, only to repeat sin, which requires further repentance! And so the cycle repeats.

Peter told his audience at Pentecost to 'repent and believe'. The repentance involved a human response, but the faith opened up an avenue for God's grace. So, repentance is just the first step. There also needs to be a baptism in God's Spirit.

How are you going to get a new heart and a new spirit, after you have repented?

paarsurrey said:

One's following points are very good and truthful points and I appreciate them:

1. We know that wages of sin is not a physical death because saved Christians still grow old and die.
2. Resurrection is not a metric for whether or not the law is followed properly.
3. In the story of Adam ( if it was physical death penalty ) we see that a death penalty can be reduced by the LORD. Sin does not *always* result in death.
4. God can demand the soul of anyone. So death could come to the righteous. Innocent children die... etc.
5. circumcision is an eternal covenant.
6. If you live a sinful life, but repent completely and change your ways, then you will have conquered death and receive eternal life.
7. The LORD (G-d) doesn't need to have a son to save you. The LORD (G-d) is All-mighty!

Jesus*- the mythical creation of the Hellenist Paul differs, as is obvious, from the truthful Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah* as also from Second Coming 1835-1908, one gets to know, even from many clues in the Gospels itself, please, right?

Regards
_________
* who never died on the Cross, and therefore was never resurrected from the dead for atonement of anybody's sins, and never ascended to heaven from Galilee, one finds from many clues in the Gospels itself.

Click to expand...

You are ignoring the multiple testimonies found in the NT, and in non-Christian sources, that tell us that Jesus died having been crucified whilst Pontius Pilate was Roman governor of Judea. Furthermore, Jesus told his disciples he would die, and the Hebrew scriptures foretell his death!

The scriptures tell us that death comes in stages: spirit, soul, body. Life is also restored in stages: Spirit, soul and body.

Yes, we will all die a bodily death, but just how many mortals can claim Jesus Christ as the 'resurrection and the life'? How many can rest in peace, knowing the saving grace of God?

Redemptionsong said:

There's a difference between God's Spirit resting upon a prophet at the time of God's choosing, and the people of God collectively walking by his Spirit.

Click to expand...

Please, let's not overlook the detail of sin. That's the point of our discussion.

You said: "The generations of Adam are all born in sin, separated from the Holy Spirit."

Then I brought verses to show that indeed the Holy Spirit rested on many after Adam and before Jesus. So, there's two choices: Either the Adam's sin did not affect those who received the Holy Spirit, or receiving the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with status as a sinner. Either way, your theology takes a hit.

This is another example of the assumptions made regading how to know if someone is with or without sin. It's assumed that Adam's sin was never forgiven. It's assumed that this sin transfers to all offspring. It's assumed that the Holy Spirit ony rests on those without sin.

And based on this a person assumes that someone receiving a spirit, working wonders must be sinless and therefore should be followed as an example of righteousness in *all* their ways.

Redemptionsong said:

Why would Jeremiah [31:33], and Ezekiel [36:25-27], indicate a future time when Israel would come to know God in Spirit and truth if lsrael already communed in this manner?

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Jeremiah is talking about a future time when the laws will not need to be taught. Since the prophecy and wonders existed without this miracle, "knowing the LORD" in this way is irrelevent to seperation from the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel 36? Ezekiel's prophecies speak to the general population. Several times in the book, it is admitted that there are righteous ones in Israel at this time.

Look at Ezekiel 14:12-23. Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job lived at this time, they themselves would be saved, but no more. Therefore, the prophecies about the House of Israel do NOT speak about every single individual Jewish person. There could be righteous people there, and the desctruction would happen anyway. A similar sentiment is in Ezekiel 21:1-5. Even if one is righteous they will be chopped down. To be clear, this is what the LORD wants them to be told. But the point is, a prophecy coming from Ezekiel might ignore who is righteous or not. When he speaks about The House of Israel in 36, there might be rightous ones there, but the prophecy is speaking to the majority.

Redemptionsong said:

Jesus said, 'Verily, l say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.'

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Jesus also said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

So you can't really trust what Jesus says all the time. Believers can't curse fig trees. Believers can't raise the dead. And where are these "greater works" that a believer can do?

Redemptionsong said:

What applies to John the Baptist applies to all the Hebrew prophets.

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Assumption. Not fact.

Redemptionsong said:

They were able to prophesy by the Spirit of God, but they did not know the Lord through the promise of a new heart and spirit.

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Sure, but that proves my point. Prophecy and wonder workings do not require a new spirit and a new heart, and therefore is unrelated to whether or not sin has been eradicted in the flesh.

Redemptionsong said:

This was a future promise, made to Abraham, and fulfilled in the seed of Abraham and David.

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The seed. What if there's an evil seed? The seed of a beast? Just a few verses up in Jeremiah we read:


Uh-oh. The seed from the House of Judah is a seed of a beast? Isn't Jesus from the House fo Judah?? I'm just pointing out how silly it is over emphasize the word seed, and make ito something that it isn't. The same goes for "son-of-man" who is also a worm and a "prince" who can't be trusted.

Assumptions, assumptions. Arguably this was Eve's flaw. She assumed she knew the rules correctly, precisely, but she didn't. Details matter. Assuming there's just one seed, assuming there's just one son-of-man, assuming miracles means sinless... not wise.

Redemptionsong said:

That seed begins with one man and takes the form of an eternal covenant.

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Agreed. A good seed makes a good eternal covenant. A bad seed makes a bad eternal covenant.

Redemptionsong said:

The things said in Leviticus about an everlasting priesthood did not find fulfilment in the sons of Aaron, but in Christ! The body of Christ, collectively, are a priesthood!

Here are the words of Hebrews 7:11-16.

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Again, here's Paul going back before the law was given at Sinai, looking for a loophole. Trying to find a way to subvert the law which he says is "weak and useless" ( The KJV uses flowery language for this ) and rendered "weak" high priests.

Does he succeed? Nope. It fails with ... assumptions.

The required premise ( see Hebrews 7:3 and Hebrews 7:8 ) is that Malchi-Tzedek still lives. Paul says it must be so. Why? because his mother, father, and life span are not known. What a ridiculous claim.

The next part of the scheme requries that Abraham ( Abram at that time ) gives a tithe to Malchi-Tzedek. That's an assumption and it does really fit the text.

Which makes more sense? Did Malchi-tzedek give to Abrham, or did Abraham give to Malchi-tzedek.

Next assumption is Hebrews 7:7. The greater always blesses the lesser. He say's that's indisputable. That's not true.

Then using these assumptions, Paul proposes that the levites, all of them in perpetuity, deferred to Malchi-tzedek retroactivley, before the law was given, before they were born, IF , big if, Abraham gave a tithe to Malchi-tzedek IF, big if, Malchi-tzedek is immortal.

The whole premise is garbage. Without Abraham giving the tithe to Malchi-tzedek; the priesthood was not fulfilled by anyone other than the Levites themselves. And that ignores the nonsense about Malchi-tzedek still being alive.

Now we get to the verses you brought.

Paul asks a question, and again, the argument he makes fails based on assumption.

And the argument fails again in its conclusion with an assumption. Verse 12 says "if the priesthood changes the law must change". That assumes there is only 1 order, 1 religion, 1 kind of priest.

So thats it. There is no loophole for Jesus to claim the high priesthood through the so-called immortal Malchi-tzedek. The whole thing is a sham.

Redemptionsong said:

How can you read this and not see the Son?!

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How can you hallucinate a son into these verses?! It says "Only God, Only He". No father-son dynamic at all. King David does not believe in a pantheon where one god begets a baby-god. Now if there was a psalm that said "You need my son to save you" Then that would be a different story.

Redemptionsong said:

It says, 'from Him is my salvation'. So, how does God save?

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How? Like the mechanics of it? It begins with forbearance, add to that mercy, and then it finishes with glory in name of the LORD.

Redemptionsong said:

It was a man, Adam (with Eve), who sinned against God, and justice demands that a man die to pay the penalty for sin.

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FALSE! That is not justice. My friend, that is wrath. Justice is when the punishment fits the crime. A person who drives too fast but doesn't hurt anyone loses their license not their life. That's justice. Wrath is when a minor infraction results in death.

Redemptionsong said:

But who can live perfectly righteously if they are wallowing in a mire that prevents self-extrication? Sin stands in the way of righteous living, and the root of sin lies in 'fallen' flesh. Until the lust of the flesh is conquered, there will be a continual struggle between the flesh and the spirit. This is why it is that only God can save.

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All perfectly true, well said.

Redemptionsong said:

Yet, to do so, God must appear on earth amongst men.

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Assumption, not fact. What does God's appearance have anything to do with it. Arguably it makes matters worse because obviously people will idolize the form of God's appearence. Incarnating as a man encourages idol worship. And that's an Egyptian concept validating their religion as true.

Question: Why *must* God appear? That puts a limit God. God is no longer All-mighty using that logic. God has many ways to save, not just one. Why put God in a box of your own imagination?

Redemptionsong said:

NT scripture tells us that Jesus, lmmanuel, lived a sinless life, and his body was put to death on the cross. His soul was then raised in a renewed spiritual body. From heaven the Holy Spirit was sent to fill the 'body of Christ', the Church, on earth.

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The NT scripture assumes a lot. As shown. We still don't know what sort of spirit descended on Jesus. And we know that at least one thing Jesus swore to, per the book of John, is false.

Redemptionsong said:

Jesus' crucifixion was 'a once for all time' sacrifice for sin. It was an eternal payment that needs no repetition.

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Assumption, not fact. Where is the proof? It can't come from miracles, prophecies, wonders, speaking in tongues, healings, raising the dead, nor ressurections. None of that has anything to do with sin.

Redemptionsong said:

When you talk about the need for repentance, you are suggesting a temporary solution. In your own strength you turn from sin, only to repeat sin, which requires further repentance! And so the cycle repeats.

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I agree it's an ongoing process for most, myself included. But true repentence is a change of heart, mind, and soul. Given the opportunity the person doesn't sin again.

Redemptionsong said:

Peter told his audience at Pentecost to 'repent and believe'. The repentance involved a human response, but the faith opened up an avenue for God's grace. So, repentance is just the first step. There also needs to be a baptism in God's Spirit.

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Repentence is one way. Grace is another way. See? There's not just one way!

Redemptionsong said:

How are you going to get a new heart and a new spirit, after you have repented?

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It comes from God, that's what scripture says.

dybmh said:

Then I brought verses to show that indeed the Holy Spirit rested on many after Adam and before Jesus. So, there's two choices: Either the Adam's sin did not affect those who received the Holy Spirit, or receiving the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with status as a sinner. Either way, your theology takes a hit.

This is another example of the assumptions made regading how to know if someone is with or without sin. It's assumed that Adam's sin was never forgiven. It's assumed that this sin transfers to all offspring. It's assumed that the Holy Spirit ony rests on those without sin.

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The doctrine of original sin is proved by the scriptures.
Firstly, it is found in both Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
1 Kings 8:46
Isaiah 53:6
Psalms 130:3
Romans 3:19,22,23
Galatians 3:22
Secondly, the spiritual depravity of man is an idea reinforced by the scriptures.
Job 15:14-16
Genesis 6:5,6
Psalms 58:3
Proverbs 22:15
Thirdly, there would be no need of regeneration if the universal depravity of man did not exist
John 3:3
2 Corinthians 5:17

dybmh said:

And Malchizedek the king of Salem brought out bread and wine, and he was a priest to the Most High God. And he blessed him, and he said, "Blessed be Abram to the Most High God, Who possesses heaven and earth. And blessed be the Most High God, Who has delivered your adversaries into your hand," and he gave him a tithe from all.

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I believe you have this wrong.

The last thing that Melchizedek says is 'into your hand', making Abraham the subject of the following statement, 'and he [Abram] gave him [Melchizedek] a tithe from all'.

From such a misreading, we get a distortion of Psalms 110, making Abraham the Lord seated in glory at the right hand of the Father!

dybmh said:

Assumption, not fact. Where is the proof? It can't come from miracles, prophecies, wonders, speaking in tongues, healings, raising the dead, nor ressurections. None of that has anything to do with sin.

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All the 'shadow' practices under the law of Moses point to an eternal offering. The timing of every event in the life of Jesus has significance, including his birth, death, resurrection, and giving of the Holy Spirit.
When did God first tabernacle amongst men?
When does lsrael celebrate their freedom from slavery?
When does the counting of the Omer begin?
When does Shavuot occur, and what does it recall?
How could Christians have predetermined the pilgrim festivals as significant times in Jesus' life? Did the disciples determine the time of Jesus' crucifixion, or the timing of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

Redemptionsong said:

You are ignoring the multiple testimonies found in the NT, and in non-Christian sources, that tell us that Jesus died having been crucified whilst Pontius Pilate was Roman governor of Judea. Furthermore, Jesus told his disciples he would die, and the Hebrew scriptures foretell his death!

The scriptures tell us that death comes in stages: spirit, soul, body. Life is also restored in stages: Spirit, soul and body.

Yes, we will all die a bodily death, but just how many mortals can claim Jesus Christ as the 'resurrection and the life'? How many can rest in peace, knowing the saving grace of God?

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Did one quote even a single specific verse from (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah in this connection, please?
Right?
One cannot quote even a single verse from him in this regards, and what makes one happy to see Yeshua dead - a cursed death, on the Cross, please? Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Did one quote even a single specific verse from (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah in this connection, please?
Right?
One cannot quote even a single verse from him in this regards, and what makes one happy to see Yeshua dead - a cursed death, on the Cross, please? Right?

Regards

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Here are some passages where Jesus foretells his own death:
Matthew 16:21
Mark 8:31
Luke 9:22
Matthew 17:22-23
Matthew 26:12
John 12:7
John 12:32,33
John 16:16,28
John 18:4

The reason Jesus had to die in this manner was to fulfil prophecy as the Saviour come to earth. He is made a curse by taking upon himself the sins of mankind. Were you not aware that the scriptures teach that Jesus died for you, too?