3rdAngel said:
↑ Thanks for sharing your views Indigo. The only problem here for me is that Jesus was never a Pharisee. Jesus never studied with the Pharisaical schools.
Your response here...
Well, this is where you and I disagree. It took Harvey Falk a whole book to go into why this can be seen from the teachings of Jesus, so I'm not going to attempt to summarize it here. This is one of the reasons I think the gospels are written by gentiles and not Jews, because a Jew would know that the Pharisees opened Jewish Day Schools so that every Jewish boy could learn to read the Torah.
Fair enough. My understanding was that the Jewish leadership was made up of both learned Rabbis that were both the elite Scribes of the Priesthood as well elite Pharisees and that both parties had variations in their belief systems. The Pharisees according to tradition only admitted those into their membership, in the presence of three members, pledged themselves to the strict observance of Levitical purity, to the avoidance of closer association with the 'Am ha-Areẓ (the ignorant and careless boor), to the scrupulous payment of tithes and other imposts due to the priest, the Levite, and the poor, and to a conscientious regard for vows and for other people's property (Dem. ii. 3; Tosef., Dem. ii. 1). ey called their members "ḥaberim" (brothers), while they passed under the name of "Perishaya," or "Perushim." Though originally identical with the
Ḥasidim, they reserved the title of "ḥasid" for former generations ("ḥasidim ha-rishonim";
see Essenes), retaining, however, the name "Perishut" (='Αμιξία = "separation," in contradistinction to 'Επιμιξία = "intermingling") as their watch word from the time of the Maccabean contest (see II Macc. xiv. 37; comp. verse 3). Both elite members of the Scribes and Pharisees were teachers of the Mosiac laws that helped educate each Jew in the local Synagogues there were spread throughout the region teaching each Jew in the Torah as children from 5 years old to 12 years of age.
Further education and places of further study were also available for promising students. Academies of the rabbis were the secondary schools for promising students. The academy was called the “House of Study” (בֵּת הַמִּדְרָשׁ). It seems probable that the elementary schools studied the OT and the oral law, the Mishnah. In the secondary schools the rabbis conducted theological discussions, and these discussions now have been written down and constitute the Talmud. Each house of study was conducted by a great Pharisaic teacher (cf. Hillel and Shamai). These academies had more sanctity even than the synagogue (
Megillah 26b-27a). Under the leadership of the rabbi, students discussed and debated the interpretation of the Torah and its application. These discussions became the basis of normative Judaism. The Apostles Paul was educated in the academy of the Pharisee Gamaliel, who was the grandson of Hillel and was prob. the leading teacher of the time. The first mention of “the House of Study” is in
Ecclesiasticus 51:23. A mention of the men of the great assembly or the Great Synagogue in the Mishnah is prob. also a reference to the academies. Jesus was never taught in these Academies. He only received the basic education and did a trade in carpentry. This is why it was written in the scripture shared with you earlier, in
John 7:15 15, And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus was never taught in the Academies of the Sages or Rabbis.
You can find more info here...
3rdAngel said:
↑ For me there is also another part of the scripture that is the immediate context that needs attention and this is highlighted in the section below....
https://www.religiousforums.com/goto/post?id=7949592#post-7949592
- Matthew 23: 1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW AND THE PHARISEES SIT IN MOSES SEAT. 3 So you must be careful to do EVERYTHING they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Why this is important to me is that the context to "everything they tell you to do follow" is in context to "the teachers of the law that sin in Moses seat". That is for me those who teach Gods' law (the scriptures) representing what Moses teaches.
Your response here...
But if you look at your quote, you will ssee that it doesn't just say teachers of the law. It spells out the Pharisees specifically. It was the Pharisees that sat on the seat of Moses, meaning that they had the authority to teach and interpret the law.
The scripture you are quoting from in Matthew 23:1-3 says in Matthew 23:2 2 “THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW
AND THE PHARISEES SIT IN MOSES SEAT. Before the Pharisee, it was the role of the Scribes who were of the Levitical Priesthood that had the role of being the "teachers of the law". Jesus here and as History shows in the linked references in the previous section, the learned Pharisees were also able to fulfill this role as being teachers of the law. Jesus is saying here that both the Scribe and the Pharisee sit Moses seat because it is their role as learned Rabbis, teachers and leaders, to teach the law of God and the Torah to Gods' people. That was the seat and role of Moses. There role as we saw with scripture examples in my previous post was not to teach the people that man-made teachings and tradition are greater than the scriptures handed down from Moses and Jesus rebuked them for thinking this in Matthew 15:2-9.
3rdAngel said:
↑ Jesus is not saying anywhere here that we are to to everything that is man-made teachings and tradition that is not in Gods Word (holy scripture) that leads us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. If that was true then you have Jesus in contradiction to Jesus who also says...
- Matthew 15:3-9 3, But he answered and said unto them, WHY DO YE ALSO TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION? 4, FOR GOD COMMANDED, SAYING, HONOUR THY FATHER AND MOTHER: AND, HE THAT CURSETH FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM DIE THE DEATH. 5, BUT YE SAY, WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY TO HIS FATHER OR HIS MOTHER, IT IS A GIFT, BY WHATSOEVER THOU MIGHTEST BE PROFITED BY ME; 6, And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YE MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION. 7, YE HYPOCRITES, WELL DID ESAIAS PROPHESY OF YOU, SAYING, 8, THIS PEOPLE DRAWETH NIGH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOURETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. 9, BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.
Note: So Jesus here is clearly stating that if we follow man-made teachings that lead us away from God and His Word we are making the commandments of God of none effect and not worshiping God in doing so. Jesus furthermore in
Matthew 15:14 calls these teacher "blind leaders of the blind and to leave them alone because they will both fall into a ditch.
Again Jesus tells us that the Scribes and Pharisees with their man-made teachings and traditions around the Sabbath were making it a burden for the people when saying...
- Mark 2:23-28 23, And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbatO THE HOUSE OF GOD IN THE DAYS OF ABIATHAR THE HIGH PRIEST, AND DID EAT THE SHEWBREAD, WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL TO EAT BUT FOR THE PRIESTS, AND Gh day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24, AND THE PHARISEES SAID UNTO HIM, BEHOLD, WHY DO THEY ON THE SABBATH DAY THAT WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL? 25, AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, HAVE YE NEVER READ WHAT DAVID DID, WHEN HE HAD NEED, AND WAS AN HUNGRED, HE, AND THEY THAT WERE WITH HIM? 26, HOW HE WENT INTAVE ALSO TO THEM WHICH WERE WITH HIM? 27, And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, AND NOT MAN FOR THE SABBATH: 28, Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
As can be shown above it was these man-made teachings and traditions placed around the Sabbath unsupported by the scriptures that made Sabbath keeping a burden to Gods' people. Jesus here is teaching that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and it is the Spirit of the law of love and mercy that needs to be considered here not man-made teachings and traditions that make Gods' law a burden. The Sabbath therefore was made by God as a blessing for all mankind not a burden. The Scribes and the Pharisees were constantly accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath because they placed so many man made teachings around the Sabbath they lost sight of what the Sabbath was about and why God gave it (see
Matthew 12:1-12).
Your response here...
Well then perhaps you have a problem with the gospels contradicting themselves, because Matthew 23:1-3 is crystal clear that Jesus' followers were to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees taught, and part of what the Pharisees taught was the Oral Torah. A lot of your confusion has to do with your lack of understanding of Halakhah, Jewish law. For example, Halakhah demands that if a life is at stake, we are required to break the other laws to save it (with the exceptions of idolatry, adultery, and murder). There is no law against healing through prayer on the sabbath. There is no law that says if you are starving you can't take shewbread.
No I have no problem, and the gospels do not contradict each other as explained in the previous sections. As explained in the previous section and shown through the scriptures, I believe it is the context that you are disregarding in Matthew 23:1-3 in Matthew 23:2 that you have not considered in your interpretation of the scriptures here which shows that it is everything in the teachings of the Mosaic law that Jesus is telling the people to follow. Matthew 15:2:9 proves this very claim when Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees for making man-made teachings and traditions leading others to break the Mosiac law. For these reasons I believe your interpretation of Matthew 23:1-3 is in error here and Matthew 15:2-9 proves this.
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