This is how the Trinity views The One God. What is wrong with in it?

The true relationship in the second diagram.

The green lines represent the flow of the spiritual essence out of the Spirit of God back to God: The Father.

For humanity, the spirit flows into mankind and back through up to God: The Father.

In the holy angels, it is already in them so it just flows out of them back to God: The Father.

For Jesus, he is made Christ by his anointment WITH the spirit of God, and so it also flows out of him back to God: the Father.

The Spirit of God IS the Spirit of the Father.

Soapy said:

The point is simply to comment on what it represents in terms of the trinity.

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The trinity is not necessary for believing in "our Father, whom art in heaven".
If the trinity was so important, Jesus would have directly told us .. but he didn't.

It is a concept that evolved by the clergy, causing enmity.
It was illegal in the UK up to the 19th. century not to believe in the trinity.
Isaac Newton rejected the trinity, and he was the first scholar in Cambridge University to be granted a professorship and get permission from the King.

..so
What is the Holy Spirit?
What is God?
What is Jesus?

The trinity offers an explanation. The main point of contention is in how Jesus is Divine? How he is fully God and fully man.

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; (ἐν δύο φύσεσιν ἀσυγχύτως, ἀτρέπτως, ἀδιαιρέτως, ἀχωρίστως – in duabus naturis inconfuse, immutabiliter, indivise, inseparabiliter) the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person (prosopon) and one Subsistence (hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεόν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
Council of Chalcedon - Wikipedia

What???
..so these clergy seem to know all about God and how He "operates", and insist that everybody must believe all of this.
I would say that God will question us all about these fine details that we insist upon. It looks like an "informed opinion" at best.
Dear oh dear .. we do get carried away sometimes, don't we.

muhammad_isa said:

The trinity is not necessary for believing in "our Father, whom art in heaven".
If the trinity was so important, Jesus would have directly told us .. but he didn't.

It is a concept that evolved by the clergy, causing enmity.
It was illegal in the UK up to the 19th. century not to believe in the trinity.
Isaac Newton rejected the trinity, and he was the first scholar in Cambridge University to be granted a professorship and get permission from the King.

..so
What is the Holy Spirit?
What is God?
What is Jesus?

The trinity offers an explanation. The main point of contention is in how Jesus is Divine? How he is fully God and fully man.

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; (ἐν δύο φύσεσιν ἀσυγχύτως, ἀτρέπτως, ἀδιαιρέτως, ἀχωρίστως – in duabus naturis inconfuse, immutabiliter, indivise, inseparabiliter) the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person (prosopon) and one Subsistence (hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεόν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
Council of Chalcedon - Wikipedia

What???
..so these clergy seem to know all about God and how He "operates", and insist that everybody must believe all of this.
I would say that God will question us all about these fine details that we insist upon. It looks like an "informed opinion" at best.
Dear oh dear .. we do get carried away sometimes, don't we.

Click to expand...

So what would you change in the first diagram?

And what comments do you have about the last diagram?

I have added some more detail to the second diagram to highlight the spirit of God.

It might not be immediately obvious because the colours inside a box are overlaying the text but:

• The Spirit of God is the same colour AS GOD:the Father…. The spirit of God is FULLY ‘OF GOD’ - it is His spiritual emanation - his power and authority sent into the world (indicated by the thick green line):
  

• Jesus Christ was filled with the Spirit of God but the believers only have limited amounts of the Spirit of God

Soapy said:

I have added some more detail to the second diagram to highlight the spirit of God.
... ... ...

• Jesus Christ was filled with the Spirit of God but the believers only have limited amounts of the Spirit of God

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Yes, I would agree.
Almighty God filled Jesus with the Holy Spirit to such an extent that he was sinless.
In the Jewish faith, the phrase "son of God" does not mean that the person is related to G-d, as in "the same God material".. it denotes a special closeness to G-d.

It was easy for gentiles, with their background of pagan gods, to imagine a person being God, and the hierarchy of the gentile church began to insist on this belief.

muhammad_isa said:

Yes, I would agree.
Almighty God filled Jesus with the Holy Spirit to such an extent that he was sinless.
In the Jewish faith, the phrase "son of God" does not mean that the person is related to G-d, as in "the same God material".. it denotes a special closeness to G-d.

It was easy for gentiles, with their background of pagan gods, to imagine a person being God, and the hierarchy of the gentile church began to insist on this belief.

Click to expand...

Agree with 90% of what you just said.

Being filled with the spirit of God didn’t make him sinless. He was filled totally with the spirit of God BECAUSE he was sinless.

I coloured the angels with the same colour as Jesus because holy angels also are sinless.

Notice also that to reach God:The Father, the line from the believers has to through Jesus Christ: The Mediator between Man and God!

But otherwise, Yes! A representative of the king is not the king; an ambassador sent from the king is not the king who sent the ambassador!

Trinitarians MUST PURPOSELY demand that the ambassador IS the king since their belief demands that they say that - but they know it is false.

You will find them squirming that ‘Jesus isn’t the Father’ by claiming that the Father is different to God. You would then be forced to agree that it is so…
But they are hoping that you haven’t noticed the subtle change in personage: They changed ‘God’ to ‘Father’ in suggestion where it says that God sent him:

• “For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.” (John 3:34)
• “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (John 3:17)

And while it is true that ‘God’ and ‘Father’ speaks of the same person, it is incorrect and deceitful to make changes in order to attempt to justify a false claim. Besides, if Jesus was sent by God - and Jesus WAS GOD - then what sense is there in anything that is said thereafter:

• ‘I am going my Father and your Father; to your God and TO ME!’?
• ‘There was a man sent from Jesus named John’?
• ‘For Jesus sent his son into the world…’?

The last diagram above shows the correct lineage of spiritual movement from God (from the Father) down by His spirit directly in to Jesus by the anointment; and into the hearts of believers and up through Jesus Christ back to God: The Father.

And Yes! Also that it was easier to preach to pagans and bring them over to the new ‘Christianity’ by suggesting a one step away from a three person godhead - the one step was claiming that all three are a committee - though there are three they are one! You can see how it would be easier to believe that rather than that everything was done by one person: one God!!

But I’m waiting to see what criticism is brought to this revelation (it’s not really a revelation since it is written in the scriptures from which I present it here!!)

Soapy said:

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I see there is one God in reality, who is only one being. I understand things from the Bible too, with no conflict. Indeed this who we call the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The heavenly Father is God to Jesus Christ, who as incarnation of the Word of God, or Logos, became known as the Son of God. The Son is God to the heavenly Father, which we know from some passages, such as Hebrews 1:8. They are each together with either other God, who is one being. I mean by this that the incarnation known as the Son of God is not another being, and the Spirit of God is not another being. They cannot really be separate from one another and always have the same being, and have agreement in the same will. There are no gods but the one real God, the Creator.

FredVB said:

I see there is one God in reality, who is only one being.

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Yes.

FredVB said:

I understand things from the Bible too, with no conflict. Indeed this who we call the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

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Yes.

FredVB said:

The heavenly Father is God to Jesus Christ.

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Yes, and that is all we need to know about this topic, really.

FredVB said:

The Son is God to the heavenly Father, which we know from some passages, such as Hebrews 1:8.

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Uhh .. right or wrong, how does this help us to understand what God expects from us?

FredVB said:

They are each together with either other God, who is one being. I mean by this that the incarnation known as the Son of God is not another being, and the Spirit of God is not another being. They cannot really be separate from one another and always have the same being, and have agreement in the same will..

Click to expand...

Now, this is becoming a philosophical opinion.
Did Jesus teach you this?

FredVB said:

I see there is one God in reality, who is only one being. I understand things from the Bible too, with no conflict. Indeed this who we call the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The heavenly Father is God to Jesus Christ, who as incarnation of the Word of God, or Logos, became known as the Son of God. The Son is God to the heavenly Father, which we know from some passages, such as Hebrews 1:8. They are each together with either other God, who is one being. I mean by this that the incarnation known as the Son of God is not another being, and the Spirit of God is not another being. They cannot really be separate from one another and always have the same being, and have agreement in the same will. There are no gods but the one real God, the Creator.

Click to expand...

muhammad_isa said:

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, and that is all we need to know about this topic, really.

Uhh .. right or wrong, how does this help us to understand what God expects from us?

Now, this is becoming a philosophical opinion.
Did Jesus teach you this?

Click to expand...

The topic according to the thread title involves trinity views.

If we want to know what there is of God's will that God 'expects of us' that is a good thing, reading what is in the Bible from the start is the approach to help with that. Everything started perfectly according to God's will, as it should be. That way matters. We went a wrong way, continuously, after that. God has worked at reconciliation, which needs our faith with repentance to come back to God according to God's will.

There is basis from scriptures I use so that is distinct from my own opinions. I do have opinions, but I don't speak much about those.

God is only one being, whose will should be observed.

John 1:1-3
Hebrews 1:8
Psalms 45:6-7
Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4

These were just some of the verses, but good ones, for seeing what is said of the Son, and of the Spirit. Since there is only one being who is God, and it is said of the Son and of the Spirit, they must necessarily be the same being, and a being, which God is, is not divided against itself. This is the logic with what there is revealed.

FredVB said:

If we want to know what there is of God's will that God 'expects of us' that is a good thing, reading what is in the Bible from the start is the approach to help with that. Everything started perfectly according to God's will, as it should be. That way matters. We went a wrong way, continuously, after that. God has worked at reconciliation, which needs our faith with repentance to come back to God according to God's will..

Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. We need to remember God, in order to avoid being led astray.

FredVB said:

There is basis from scriptures I use so that is distinct from my own opinions. I do have opinions, but I don't speak much about those.

God is only one being, whose will should be observed.

John 1:1-3
Hebrews 1:8
Psalms 45:6-7
Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4

These were just some of the verses, but good ones, for seeing what is said of the Son, and of the Spirit. Since there is only one being who is God, and it is said of the Son and of the Spirit, they must necessarily be the same being, and a being, which God is, is not divided against itself. This is the logic with what there is revealed.

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I know where you are coming from..
Yes there is only One "being" who is God.

..but what sort of "being" is that?
In my understanding, One who is infinite .. One who knows what every one of us is thinking .. One who knows about every atom in the universe .. One who knows the future and the past with complete accuracy .. and so much more.

..to then try to explain how a man can be all those things is not at all easy. It requires more than a good imagination.
We all have our beliefs and traditions, but it is possible to go too far in explanations of what God is and isn't.

This is why mankind is split into denominations .. people claiming to know exactly all the details, when clearly they don't .. or they would all say the same thing.

..rather than argue about what God is, it might be better to argue about what God expects from us.

muhammad_isa said:

If the trinity was so important, Jesus would have directly told us .. but he didn't.

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What of Matthew 28:19:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

That appears to be three entities (a trinity) Jesus is naming.

Guitar's Cry said:

What of Matthew 28:19:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

That appears to be three entities (a trinity) Jesus is naming.

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Mmm .. it's amazing how preconceived ideas can conjure up something when we read something.

"In the name of the Father" .. we know Jesus worshipped our Father who sent him.

"and of the Son" .. that would be Jesus..
"and of the Holy Spirit" .. that would be as in Psalm 51..

Fashion a pure heart for me, O God; create in me a steadfast spirit (רוּחַ נָכֹון‎).
Do not cast me out of Your presence, or take Your holy spirit (רוּחַ קָדְשְׁךָ‎) away from me.
Let me again rejoice in Your help; let a vigorous spirit (רוּחַ נְדִיבָה‎) sustain me.

It is an attribute of God, and not "a person".
If we take a step towards God, then He (the spirit) becomes stronger in us.

muhammad_isa said:

It is an attribute of God, and not "a person".

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And Jesus named that attribute as part of a trinity we should baptize nations in.

Guitar's Cry said:

And Jesus named that attribute as part of a trinity we should baptize nations in.

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..and it is a series of ecumenical councils that voted on various aspects of Jesus, and formed "the truth" of what people "must" believe.

muhammad_isa said:

..and it is a series of ecumenical councils that voted on various aspects of Jesus, and formed "the truth" of what people "must" believe.

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True! Nevertheless, it is an example of Jesus directly telling of a trinity.

Guitar's Cry said:

True! Nevertheless, it is an example of Jesus directly telling of a trinity.

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Only if you believe in a "trinity of gods" in the first place.
It does not directly mention that any one of them =God.

Clearly, if a person does not believe that "the Son" is who he claims to be [Messiah/Christ], then they cannot be a Christian.

If we say that the Son and Holy Spirit are manifestations of God, it could mean many things.
I don't see how one could claim that "the Father" is a manifestation of God. He is God .. Jesus worshiped the Father and taught us the Lord's prayer.

muhammad_isa said:

Only if you believe in a "trinity of gods" in the first place.
It does not directly mention that any one of them =God.

Clearly, if a person does not believe that "the Son" is who he claims to be [Messiah/Christ], then they cannot be a Christian.

If we say that the Son and Holy Spirit are manifestations of God, it could mean many things.
I don't see how one could claim that "the Father" is a manifestation of God. He is God .. Jesus worshiped the Father and taught us the Lord's prayer.

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The problem then comes in when we try to stuff this idea of "doing something in the name of" (which Jesus specifies we should do with three things) into the ideology of monotheism, which is crucial if you wish to observe no other above THE God.

The refutation to this is semantic analysis of what it means to worship, but it does lead to theologies that place the trinity within one: the Trinity.

Guitar's Cry said:

The problem then comes in when we try to stuff this idea of "doing something in the name of" (which Jesus specifies we should do with three things) into the ideology of monotheism, which is crucial if you wish to observe no other above THE God.

The refutation to this is semantic analysis of what it means to worship, but it does lead to theologies that place the trinity within one: the Trinity.

Click to expand...

If one looks into how Christianity evolved .. what it evolved from .. and how Islam has spread to the same extent as Christianity in our modern world .. we have:-

Judaism: There is only One God .. Moses given authority
Christianity: There is only One God .. Jesus given authority
Islam: There is only One God .. Muhammad given authority

..and all three traditions have their beliefs, and reasons why they think their tradition is the best.

A Muslim, of course, believes that all are given authority, and have great respect for all three.

Baptising in the name of Jesus, confirms a belief in Jesus .. it says very little about the Divinity of Jesus.
People believe in the tradition of the trinity as it was established by the Roman Empire, who outlawed so-called Arian belief .. until Islam entered the picture with similar theology.
i.e. Jesus did not create the universe and was created by the Father

Soapy said:

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I believe that is about as clear as mud.

Soapy said:

Follow the lines upwards from each of the ‘persons’ of (in ?) ‘God’.

Follow the lines downwards from ‘God’.

Follow the lines directly downwards from the ‘Father’.

Notice that there are no lines directly connecting ‘Son’ and ‘Holy Spirit’.

There is also a huge anomaly which is obvious in stating the relationship to God of the three persons but never commented on by trinitarian proponents.

Can you spot the ‘Elephant in the room’?

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I believe I don't know the source for the lines but there definitely is a connection of Jesus with the Paraclete.

I believe I am not that imaginative.