"The Right is way worse than the Left!!!"

ADigitalArtist · Dec 2, 2022

Revoltingest said:
To claim that one can be socialist and libertarian
is bogus. Economic authoritarianism by itself
makes it non-libertarian. But the consequent
social oppression of socialism is especially
non-libertarian.

The term libertarian was coined specifically to describe left social anarchists. The same people Orwell fought alongside against both right authoritarian facists and left authoritarian communists.

The whole of Libertarianism =/= ancap or right minarchy. That is specifically the stereotype of politically uneducated Americans.

Ponder This · Dec 2, 2022

1137 said:
Don't get me wrong, the Right is garbage, but they've always been the way they are. I've been done with them since childhood. The Left used to at least try and help people, try to be reasonable, try to be balanced. It's become literally nothing more than a vile reflection of the Right.

For instance, I'm so sick of hearing about January 6th. First of all, the founders literally wanted us to tear them out of office if/when they went bad, the only problem with the Trumpers is they did it for a dumb reason to support an absolute fool. [Worth noting that left propaganda is so bad people assume if you aren't a D you support Trump.] But my real problem? These are the same people who cheered at the murder of police officers, torching of entire neighborhoods, occupations of major cities, and wanted to let a pedophile with a gun publicly execute a kid because he made an extremely, objectively stupid decision at 17. So it's kind of hilarious to hear these worries about "inciting violence" or "domestic terrorism" from "mostly peaceful" rioting murderers and looters.

Republicans don't care about children, everyone knows this. Imagine being a young, democratic social worker and seeing people, coworkers, and democratic politicians give their all for children at the border, when they can't be bothered to care about the 5 abusive foster homes in their own neighborhood (probably because they weren't told to). Both are bad, but they don't give a damn because caring about one group of kids is worth far more political social credit. Our hearts go to Urkraine, but who cares about the numerous other genocides, war crimes, unjust wars, etc. that the party hasn't told us to care about? Everyone still went to Qatar. Just like the Republicans and their special pleading hypocrisy.

We all know Republicans don't care about workers rights, they'd have us work 100 hour weeks with no PTO for minimum wage and no benefits. So what about the Left? Do they care about employees or political posturing? The answer is clear when you look at the fact that even Bernie is arguing for rail workers to have 7 PTO days. That's laughably low, and what about the rest of us? He and his peers, again, just push the topic of the day for votes, just like caring about border but not foster kids.

What about guns? The Left wants guns gone more than anything, same as the right wants to be able to go to Wal-Mart and buy a grenade launcher for home defense. Blatant reflections of each other, but neither gives a darn about the real problem: mental health. Because being pro/anti gun gets the votes. The Right probably thinks mental illness is demons or something, which gets them votes, whereas the Left now actively encourages mental illness as something chic and individuating, which gets them votes. Because they care ABOUT THE VOTES, not about you or me. Just take any mass shooting - literally neither side cares about what might have driven a person to do that, or bullying, or parenting, or the already mentioned mental health. Only "keep/take guns". "Guns are the cause." Do mentally healthy people commit mass murder?

Remember the days when the Right used to try and cancel people under accusations that were guilty until proven innocent? Like Marilyn Manson? But who actually successfully canceled Manson under accusations that were guilty until proven innocent? The same people who cancel everyone these days, the Left. Remember "believe all women" followed by the Depp trial, after he was canceled under accusations that were guilty until proven innocent?

How about abortion? It's my body my choice, unless of course we're talking about politicized topics. Tell me when I can work (if I'm even defined as essential enough), tell me I'm defined by my skin color or the acts of my ancestors (original sin, really?), try to stop my income because of what a doctor recommends me? You're going to treat people like second class citizens in the hospital simply because they caught a specific illness with a high survival rate? But only the Republicans are tyrants, of course, only they are fascist and authoritarian, you aren't mirror images of each other.

And you know something? Never once at work have I had a conservative try to shove their religion down my throat. I was even outted at one job ignorantly as a "satanist" and the conservatives just joked with me about it. The Ledt will not. shut. up at work. About how they have their position cause of gender or race while telling the rest of their demographic how they need to be saved by a company, about how they're triple jabbed and still masking even though they have Covid, about how they're part of an anti capitalist rebellion as they work OT in their favorite brand name shirt, about how their votes "won't be counted" cause of their color in our purple gone blue state. SHUT UP ABOUT YOUR RELIGION AT WORK.

Remember when they freaked out at Republicans killing an effigy of Obama (messed up) then loved a mock decapitation of Trump? Remember the Republicans screaming to Democrats that they need to respect the president, and the democrats just laughing? And who now thinks we need to respect the office itself irrelevant of the person while the other side hypocritically mocks? Who mocked Trump falling on stairs and now can't handle it when people laugh at Biden? I explicitly remember an incident where how Trump took a drink of water was analyzed.

Both parties are exactly. The. Same. Thing. Because American politics is all one party: the Anti-Citizen, keep ourselves rich, and stay in power party. Democrats, Republicans, tomatoe tomatoe. They are the same thing.

Team think is what makes Republicans and Demoncrats look the same. If your team gains power you are happy and if your team loses power you are distressed.

The purpose of all fund-raising is to elect your team. It doesn't matter what the issue is... as long as people will give money for that issue, politicians can use that issue to raise money for the purpose of ~~addressing the issue~~ getting and maintaining power.

Yes, they look the "same". The politicians all look like their concern is getting and maintaining power. Their supporters all look like their concern is whether or not their team wins or loses.

And the more you watch, the more it looks like they are operating on the principle that the ends justifies means.

Revoltingest · Dec 2, 2022

Debater Slayer said:
The image that many have of communism hearkens back to Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, and other violent, totalitarian ideologies. This makes it complicated to decouple communism as a general ideology from its most destructive forms, similar to how a lot of people automatically associate certain religions with the worst examples without having much familiarity with their underlying concepts.

Communism is inherently destructive. This is because
social authoritarianism is an emergent property of a
government powerful enuf to impose not only a command
economy, but also banning private property.

Whether China will match or surpass the toxicity of American foreign policy remains to be seen. Russia has long been as bad as the US on that front, so I have no preference for it whether domestically or globally.

A big difference is that Ameristan gave up conquest,
unlike China in Tibet, & Russia in Ukraine. They're
predatory.
Of course, this doesn't excuse wrongful US wars.

Revoltingest · Dec 2, 2022

ADigitalArtist said:
The term libertarian was coined specifically to describe left social anarchists. The same people Orwell fought alongside against both right authoritarian facists and left authoritarian communists.

The whole of Libertarianism =/= ancap or right minarchy. That is specifically the stereotype of politically uneducated Americans.

It seems that you lean towards a more etymological
definition of "libertarian". I see the philosophy as
going farther back in history than the term itself.
In short, it's about liberty. That means both social
and economic freedom. This is how Ameristanian
& Canuckistanian Libertarian parties see things.

When the far left gains control, & replaces economic
liberty (ie, capitalism) with a command economy
(ie, socialism), we observe that liberty vanishes.
As for anarchy, it cannot survive for long because
it lacks stability. Minarchy at least allows for the
common defense, useful regulation, law enforcement,
& social welfare benefits.

ADigitalArtist · Dec 2, 2022

Revoltingest said:
It seems that you lean towards a more etymological
definition of "libertarian". I see the philosophy as
going farther back in history than the term itself.
In short, it's about liberty. That means both social
and economic freedom. This is how Ameristanian
& Canuckistanian Libertarian parties see things.

When the far left gains control, & replaces economic
liberty (ie, capitalism) with a command economy
(ie, socialism), we observe that liberty vanishes.
As for anarchy, it cannot survive for long because
it lacks stability. Minarchy at least allows for the
common defense, useful regulation, law enforcement,
& social welfare benefits.

About as relevent as when Christians try to omit nontrinitarian Christians out of an overlieral definition of christ as savior. JW are still Christians and social and communist and anarchist libertarians are still libertarian, (in fact that is the historical definition of libertarian) because both economic and political freedom is greater in the hand of people, rather than oligarchs or kleptocrats.

In the same way you think anarchy will always fail for stability reasons, capitalism which is inherently immoral as it requires putting profit over wellness, will always fail as resource hoarding inevitably shifts it to aforementioned oligarchy, kelptocracy, or facism.

1137 · Dec 2, 2022

Quintessence said:
I shouldn't be surprised that the false equivalency demonstrated in the opening post translates into obliviousness or willful ignorance of how team red - and only team red - has been blatantly hostile to women's fundamental rights. Don't you dare tell me they're equivalent. Such rot gives you less than zero credibility.

Why can you not fathom this can be true AND the Left can be bad? It's wasn't the right labeling people unessential, locking them in their homes, forcing people out of work for their personal choices, closing down religiois services... and none of this excuses the right either . Both are bad, if one can see past the propaganda. Honestly I'd say it's more concerning that you only care about your own rights and not those of all. Then again, that's the left (and right) for you.

Edit: at least youre honest enough to admit it's not autonomy you care for outside of your own.

Debater Slayer · Dec 2, 2022

Revoltingest said:
Communism is inherently destructive. This is because
social authoritarianism is an emergent property of a
government powerful enuf to impose not only a command
economy, but also banning private property.

The idea that capitalism guarantees social freedom is demonstrably incorrect. Any system needs to be kept in check or it becomes a tool of oppression.

I do find communism to be a pipe dream, though. I don't trust human nature not to be corrupted by so much power, and the concept of such a harmonious system where government and the people perfectly contribute to each other's well-being is amply evidenced to be unreliable and unfeasible.

I view "free-market capitalism" as similarly unrealistic and harmful, albeit in different ways. For example, a lot of colonialist and neocolonialist exploitation of other countries for resources has direct roots in capitalism and prioritization of corporate profit over all other considerations.

A big difference is that Ameristan gave up conquest,
unlike China in Tibet, & Russia in Ukraine. They're
predatory.
Of course, this doesn't excuse wrongful US wars.

Conquest is unnecessarily costly and risky when a global superpower can just install and support puppets and dictators who serve its interests. There's a reason the US has long supported abusive regimes in Saudi Arabia and Israel, among others.

fantome profane · Dec 2, 2022

1137 said:
Why can you not fathom this can be true AND the Left can be bad? It's wasn't the right labeling people unessential, locking them in their homes, forcing people out of work for their personal choices, closing down religiois services... and none of this excuses the right either . Both are bad, if one can see past the propaganda. Honestly I'd say it's more concerning that you only care about your own rights and not those of all. Then again, that's the left (and right) for you.

Edit: at least youre honest enough to admit it's not autonomy you care for outside of your own.

I just want to share a thought about the different attitude Republicans and Democrats had regarding covid restrictions.

Think about the recent mid-term election. The Republicans did not do as well as they anticipated, they made some gains, but there was no red wave.

There are as I see it three basic reasons for this. First was the overturning of Roe v Wade, an other reason was a rejection of election denial.

The third reason I mention is this.
Studies consistently find higher Covid death rates among Republicans than Democrats

Think of it as just another heinous leftist plot, but if you want to win elections, it is a good idea to keep you voter base alive.

Shadow Wolf · Dec 2, 2022

Debater Slayer said:
Different, yes, but some of its residues still linger today, such as the fact that any openly socialist or communist candidate in the US would lose many votes by sheer virtue of the label.

I view both China and the US as bullies in terms of their foreign policy. They also both tend to only trot out specific mantras such as "stability," "order," "democracy," etc., when doing so suits their geopolitical interests and agendas.

The difference is that I don't see China as worse than the US overall in terms of foreign policy. The idea that the US is a bulwark against a communist evil in the form of China strikes me as Western-centric propaganda: at worst, Chinese foreign policy would be as bad as its American counterpart has been toward much of the Middle East, Asia, and South America, among others. It's hard to do much worse than being the only country in history to drop nukes on another country, or waging more wars in the span of a few decades than some countries have done in a century or more.

Yeah, America has largely only paid lip service to the ideas of freedom and liberty. Here and abroad it's definitely lacking.
China, truly I believe they're basically just playing a different game to get the same results.
When America refuses to acknowledge a country it does with bombs. When China refuses to acknowledge a country it does so by flaunting economic influence.
Neither is fit to the lead the world in the 21st century.

Quintessence · Dec 2, 2022

1137 said:
Why can you not fathom this can be true AND the Left can be bad?

You're putting words in my mouth that weren't (and aren't) there. I'm well aware that good/bad are entirely arbitrary, subjective, human projections onto a fundamentally amoral reality.

I'm also well aware that humans can't escape moralizing on the whole, and that when something directly threatens the wellbeing of the people on a monumental scale, it's not inappropriate to call that out for what it is - a problem, bad, evil, what have you. Problems abound, but on balance, there's not even any question that team red has descended to a level that they've earned the moniker "Death Party" from me. Hence the blatant false equivalency of the OP and me calling that out for what it is - nonsense.

1137 said:
Honestly I'd say it's more concerning that you only care about your own rights and not those of all.

More putting words in my mouth that weren't (and aren't) there, but if in your universe I'm somehow all of the women on planet earth, well... cool, I guess? Kind of creepy, but cool?

1137 said:
Edit: at least youre honest enough to admit it's not autonomy you care for outside of your own.

Yet more putting words in my mouth that weren't (and aren't) there. Or is this some weird continuation of the fact you believe I'm the only woman on the planet? Am I also the only organism on the planet? Are you from Mercury?

Shadow Wolf · Dec 2, 2022

Debater Slayer said:
Conquest is unnecessarily costly and risky when a global superpower can just install and support puppets and dictators who serve its interests. There's a reason the US has long supported abusive regimes in Saudi Arabia and Israel, among others.

Yup. Even Rome knew they needed puppet leaders to hold their plans together, and learned the hard way that can still have disastrous results.
America is still learning, and will probably collapse before it learns just like Rome.

Shadow Wolf · Dec 2, 2022

Revoltingest said:
To claim that one can be socialist and libertarian
is bogus. Economic authoritarianism by itself
makes it non-libertarian. But the consequent
social oppression of socialism is especially
non-libertarian.

This is where you're being black and white and ethnocentric even with such rigid promotion of an American idea of libertarianism above all others.
And what more evidence do we need of your rigid position? I didn't even mention socialism in my post but you brought it up anyways.
American Libertarians no more own the term libertarian and hold exclusive rights over it than Christians do with the term religion.

Shadow Wolf · Dec 2, 2022

Revoltingest said:
Communism is inherently destructive. This is because
social authoritarianism is an emergent property of a
government powerful enuf to impose not only a command
economy, but also banning private property.

How many communists can you name? How many have you read? Are you aware that much like capitalism there are different flavors of it and, no surprise, the peace and liberty ones haven't had any power. Trotsky is about as close as it comes, and it didn't end well for him.
What you do with communism is no different than if someone hears some third hand Nozick through the lens of some hyper partisan liberals and decides that the entirety of Capitalism.

Revoltingest · Dec 2, 2022

ADigitalArtist said:
About as relevent as when Christians try to omit nontrinitarian Christians out of an overlieral definition of christ as savior.

That makes no sense.

JW are still Christians and social and communist and anarchist libertarians are still libertarian, (in fact that is the historical definition of libertarian) because both economic and political freedom is greater in the hand of people, rather than oligarchs or kleptocrats.

That's quite a tangent you wandered off into.

In the same way you think anarchy will always fail for stability reasons, capitalism which is inherently immoral as it requires putting profit over wellness, will always fail as resource hoarding inevitably shifts it to aforementioned oligarchy, kelptocracy, or facism.

The underlined portion is ridiculous, given
that capitalism offers better examples than
any alternative you can offer.
I don't see systems as either moral or immoral.
Some just have the potential to match libertarian
values (ie, social & economic liberty) than others.
So if capitalism is immoral (as you claim), at least
it's less immoral than whatever you'd pursue.

Revoltingest · Dec 2, 2022

Debater Slayer said:
The idea that capitalism guarantees social freedom....

There you go with another straw man.
I don't claim guarantees....only that capitalist
countries can turn out well, but socialist (ie,
no capitalism) countries never do.

I view "free-market capitalism" as similarly unrealistic and harmful, albeit in different ways.

It appears that you're saying countries with
capitalism are similar in economic & social
liberty to countries without capitalism,
considering domestic & foreign effects.
Let's explore this with with real world examples.....
Which do you think are the best capitalist countries?
Which do you think are the best socialist (non-capitalist) countries?

Stevicus · Dec 2, 2022

Revoltingest said:
Where has socialism replaced capitalism,
& worked well?

Revoltingest said:
Still no answer to this question.

Well, I've been a bit busy today, so I haven't had time to answer yet.

But it's Friday night, and I'm just not in the mood right now.

Revoltingest · Dec 2, 2022

Shadow Wolf said:
This is where you're being black and white...

Pbbbttt....pot calling the kettle black.

... and ethnocentric even with such rigid promotion of an American idea of libertarianism above all others.

And Canuckistanian idea
My ethnocentrism is better than your Eurocentrism.

And what more evidence do we need of your rigid position?

Pot vs kettle again?

I didn't even mention socialism in my post but you brought it up anyways.
American Libertarians no more own the term libertarian and hold exclusive rights over it than Christians do with the term religion.

It's not just the party.
It's that your command economy approach
results in no liberty of either kind.

metis · Dec 2, 2022

Stevicus said:
Well, I've been a bit busy today, so I haven't had time to answer yet.

But it's Friday night, and I'm just not in the mood right now.

Even though I'm not a Marxist, old Karl was right about unbridled capitalism when he said under that economic system "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer".

Revoltingest · Dec 2, 2022

Shadow Wolf said:
How many communists can you name?

I can think of 2 off hand.
I know others, but names are harder
to come by as the years go by.
Is it necessary to quantify this?

How many have you read?

What is this....20 questions?
Don't Gish Gallop me.

Are you aware that much like capitalism there are different flavors of it and, no surprise, the peace and liberty ones haven't had any power. Trotsky is about as close as it comes, and it didn't end well for him.
What you do with communism is no different than if someone hears some third hand Nozick through the lens of some hyper partisan liberals and decides that the entirety of Capitalism.

Words have definitions.
They don't become something else just because
you've read the collected works of Mao & Marx.
Arguments from feigned authority fail. Give me
a cogent argument with evidence.

Desperate defenses of communism & socialism
are entirely unevidenced. At least I've offered up
real countries for comparison. Your command
economies are dismal in comparison.

Revoltingest · Dec 2, 2022

Stevicus said:
Well, I've been a bit busy today, so I haven't had time to answer yet.

But it's Friday night, and I'm just not in the mood right now.

Memes but no answer, eh.
I counter with....

"The Right is way worse than the Left!!!"

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