Annoying proselytizing (and preaching)

It Aint Necessarily So said:

They're detrimental to people, too. But that wasn't the point. You asked, "How do you "coerce" someone into Christianity?"

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OK?

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Indoctrination (Sunday school), temptation with promises of pie in the sky, and steering people away from secular education have also been effective in keeping people in the fold.

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This sound more like a personal burr where you would prefer people be indoctrinated to your personal faith.

IndigoChild5559 said:

You'll get different answers depending on what Jew you ask. Many Jews do not believe in any afterlife at all. Traditionally, Judaism has taught that when we die we go to Gehinnom, a temporary hell. This is why we pray for the dead for 11 months. Gehinnom purifies us for the resurrection, where we shall physically live in the world to come. There is also a teaching that the truly evil have their souls annihilated, leaving only the righteous to continue on. And finally, there is a teaching of transmigration of the soul, where it is thought that every Jewish soul will continue to reincarnate until it has kept every commandment.

I do not personally have an opinion on the subject. What happens after death is irrelevant to how I live my life. I think that if I follow God's ways, any afterlife will take care of itself. And if there is no afterlife, I have lived my life in a rich and meaningful way, so I have no regrets. Basically, I obey God because he is God, King of the Universe, and thus worthy of my obedience.

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There are certainly different opinions about what happens after death, even among Christians. Now that I'm no longer a Christian, I've completely rejected what the Bible claims about death and the afterlife. My lifelong experiences as a psychic medium have taught me that the Bible's claims about the afterlife are incorrect, and that it contains contradictory messages about its claims. As a medium, I communicate with and interact with earthbound human spirits, and I encourage them to cross over into the spirit world (read here and here to learn about my abilities). I've been a practicing medium for the last 15 years, and I've helped many people get in contact with a deceased loved one by telling them private information that was only known between them and their deceased loved one. I've also advised other members on RF about their personal experiences with spirits, as I mentioned the other day in an earlier post in this thread. Last month, a Christian friend asked me to participate in a séance she was hosting and assist her in making contact with her deceased sister. I connected her with her sister as well as shared messages with a couple of other guests (read my thread here).

Kenny said:

This sound more like a personal burr where you would prefer people be indoctrinated to your personal faith.

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I don't have a faith. I'm a humanist and a critical thinker. Humanists disesteem faith. They value justified belief, meaning justified by the formal rules of interpreting evidence. And we value education over indoctrination. Indoctrination is how we teach children what we want them to believe if they aren't up to reasoned argument yet, but as soon as kids are able to begin thinking critically, we switch to education.

So, when 4-year-old Johnny is in Sunday School, he will be told the Genesis creation story enough times until he can remember it. No evidence or argument is offered, and Johnny is quizzed on his belief. If he questions the dogma, he is corrected - basically told that that's just how it is and to put away any skepticism, that being rebelliousness or the devil trying to steal his soul with doubt.

Then he graduates high school and goes off to university, where he is taught evolutionary theory. Education is completely different. Unlike with Sunday school, he will be shown the evidence Darwin used to arrive at his conclusions, and though he'll be tested to see if he learned it, he'll never be asked if he believes it.

This is what his indoctrinators back home fear, and why so many don't want their children going off to university to be educated, or even public schools when they can afford schools that repeat the Sunday school lessons. Here, creationism can be reinforced with further indoctrination, because, lacking an evidenced argument for it, it can't be imparted any other way.

We don't indoctrinate into humanism because for starters, it isn't a club to join. It's a world view that appeals to critical thinkers. In my case, I was a humanist before I first heard the word. Once I gave up faith, I no longer suspended disbelief and returned to this tried and true method for deciding what is true, right, and good. My disposition is liberal, my currency of belief is empiric justification, my metaphysics is godless and naturalistic, and my ethics are borne of reason applied to moral intuitions (Golden rule for personal morality, utilitarianism for society building and lawmaking).

Then one day, I came across what were called the Affirmations of Humanism, and saw my world view in writing, which is pretty strong confirmation that this was a holistic, natural worldview. I didn't need to be indoctrinated into it, and wouldn't have been interested in any indoctrination anyway, having spent so much time learning to immunize myself from it with critical thinking.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

I don't have a faith. I'm a humanist and a critical thinker. Humanists disesteem faith. They value justified belief, meaning justified by the formal rules of interpreting evidence. And we value education over indoctrination. Indoctrination is how we teach children what we want them to believe if they aren't up to reasoned argument yet, but as soon as kids are able to begin thinking critically, we switch to education.

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I disagree. I believe it is your faith and you indoctrinate your values to unsuspecting children according to your rules of interpreting evidence. You white-wash it under the banner of education but it remains an indoctrination.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

So, when 4-year-old Johnny is in Sunday School, he will be told the Genesis creation story enough times until he can remember it. No evidence or argument is offered, and Johnny is quizzed on his belief. If he questions the dogma, he is corrected - basically told that that's just how it is and to put away any skepticism, that being rebelliousness or the devil trying to steal his soul with doubt.

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Hmmm... I'm not sure that 4 years olds can actually reason on the level you want them to reason.

And since you aren't in our 4year old Sunday School class, I'm not sure you are a very good judge of what is being taught. How about "honor your mother and your father" and "love your neighbor as yourself"? More like their level?

Sounds more like a personal burr to me.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Then he graduates high school and goes off to university, where he is taught evolutionary theory. Education is completely different. Unlike with Sunday school, he will be shown the evidence Darwin used to arrive at his conclusions, and though he'll be tested to see if he learned it, he'll never be asked if he believes it.

This is what his indoctrinators back home fear, and why so many don't want their children going off to university to be educated, or even public schools when they can afford schools that repeat the Sunday school lessons. Here, creationism can be reinforced with further indoctrination, because, lacking an evidenced argument for it, it can't be imparted any other way.

We don't indoctrinate into humanism because for starters, it isn't a club to join. It's a world view that appeals to critical thinkers. In my case, I was a humanist before I first heard the word. Once I gave up faith, I no longer suspended disbelief and returned to this tried and true method for deciding what is true, right, and good. My disposition is liberal, my currency of belief is empiric justification, my metaphysics is godless and naturalistic, and my ethics are borne of reason applied to moral intuitions (Golden rule for personal morality, utilitarianism for society building and lawmaking).

Then one day, I came across what were called the Affirmations of Humanism, and saw my world view in writing, which is pretty strong confirmation that this was a holistic, natural worldview. I didn't need to be indoctrinated into it, and wouldn't have been interested in any indoctrination anyway, having spent so much time learning to immunize myself from it with critical thinking.

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I have two grandchildren who are going to college.... Somehow your postulate doesn't fit.

Go figure

So, you accepted a humanistic viewpoint. OK. I assume you have the faith that there is no God and that energy just happened to create matter and matter just happened to create life and all the symbiotic relationships in this world is a matter of chance. All without empirical and verifiable evidence.

It takes more faith to believe your position that it does to believe mine.

The Kilted Heathen said:

This makes me mad. No, she wasn't ready to be a martyr. I'd bet everything in my bank that she would have rather been anywhere but there. But the expectation of her church leaders and likely her parents was forcing her to be there with the thin comfort of spiritual reward. I strongly dislike the people who send her (and others like her) out there, but it's hard to be truly angry or awful to people like her.

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If it was me I would have gladly been there. I see no reason to assume she was forced.

Shadow Wolf said:

I see no reason to assume she was forced.

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Have you ever been on the receiving end of religious peer pressure and coercion? It's not fun, and from JDMS' account there is plenty to assume she was being forced there through said coercion.

1. Looking incredibly scared
2. Visibly trembling
3. Voice wavering/cracking
4. Fear of being physically assaulted

Someone who is ready to be a martyr would not be afraid of those things.

Kenny said:

It takes more faith to believe your position that it does to believe mine.

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I grew up hearing that. But fossils and isotopic decay are far more believable than the words of people who didn't unsanitary blood is. And those who taught me nothing more than words printed on paper are more believable than hard evidence also consistently fail to understand why atheism and humanism aren't faiths or beliefs or religions.

The Kilted Heathen said:

Have you ever been on the receiving end of religious peer pressure and coercion? It's not fun, and from JDMS' account there is plenty to assume she was being forced there through said coercion.

1. Looking incredibly scared
2. Visibly trembling
3. Voice wavering/cracking
4. Fear of being physically assaulted

Someone who is ready to be a martyr would not be afraid of those things.

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I didn't need pressured. I just did it. And, yeah, there may have been some anxiety. Those circles tell adherents the persecution, bigotry and even possibly violence will be done to them.

ChristineM said:

And you are welcome to interpret the bible in whatever way you choose

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Thank you. The way I have learned makes much sense to me, and I am thankful for it, so thank you for your consideration. I am looking forward to the future.

IndigoChild5559 said:

You'll get different answers depending on what Jew you ask. Many Jews do not believe in any afterlife at all. Traditionally, Judaism has taught that when we die we go to Gehinnom, a temporary hell. This is why we pray for the dead for 11 months. Gehinnom purifies us for the resurrection, where we shall physically live in the world to come. There is also a teaching that the truly evil have their souls annihilated, leaving only the righteous to continue on. And finally, there is a teaching of transmigration of the soul, where it is thought that every Jewish soul will continue to reincarnate until it has kept every commandment.

I do not personally have an opinion on the subject. What happens after death is irrelevant to how I live my life. I think that if I follow God's ways, any afterlife will take care of itself. And if there is no afterlife, I have lived my life in a rich and meaningful way, so I have no regrets. Basically, I obey God because he is God, King of the Universe, and thus worthy of my obedience.

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Well, that is an interesting concept. Gehennom, or Gehenna in some ways of transliterating it, wasn't it a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem?

YoursTrue said:

Well, that is an interesting concept. Gehennom, or Gehenna in some ways of transliterating it, wasn't it a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem?

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Words often have more than one meaning. Bat can mean a flying mammal, or it can mean the stick that you hit a baseball with. The fact that there was a garbage heap called Gehinnom doesn't negate the fact that there is also an afterlife teaching of a temporary hell called Gehinnom.

Fact of life. I'm a human you're a human.

Science says I learnt from pre humans as humans that humans lived a long time ago also. Looking back now theorising is direct to a human corpse...any past status a humans relativity. To their use I tell stories.

All human studies first are pretend and belief only. Science says it's wisdom science is for machine use as machines only. Not any other type of theory. No machine used no machine stories either.

A theist a group a cult says let me force my human only theories upon you and you have to agree or else.

Machines don't own existence. Humans life does only. I didn't agree for you to build machines. I however am told you don't own equal choice or equal rights...a human.

Historic all theories human now....it was by families threat of murder or murder. Any coercive human group status today. Theists. To theory. To espouse a humans only story.

Being human is by sex an act. We are all already human but as two human parents...and not the individual self.

So we own two creators human before us.

Before two humans in thesis is no human. No human consciousness. No human calculus. No human theorising.

As exact you're just a human and you aren't speaking on behalf of a God as you are just a human. Don't idolate your own self the human warning...taught over and over you are mutual you are equal don't self idolate.

Owns the same human history. Bullying. Threat. Human killing human. That actual status past human only behaviours via human science or religion says it the history that founds its human truth today.

Inequality. Bullying. Coercive threats and murder isn't any type of truth.

Truth we are told needs to be accepted as if you don't use its actual human condition you enable other humans to destroy life on earth.

Historic a cult began control. It was humans who believed in design and building who implemented technology that destroyed life on earth.

How a rich human owning inequality became the rich human. The argument.

Rich humans title living inside heavens king's and lords. Men of science history.

So eventually the human woman a queen says I'm trying for unification to cause the sharing of a common Wealth. Knowing family of the past were wrong.

Last human advice what humans need to realise. Humans destroy humans on planet earth. Their choice.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Whose fault is that? Who did that to them? Who dropped a Bible in their playpen and lauded uncritical thought (faith) as virtue while demeaning the "wisdom of men"?

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Well, it would be easy to say in the end, it is their own fault. And it is. But in the beginning of the indoctrination it is usually the fault of the parents who raise them. An example is my current situation where daughter's abusive boyfriend and father of my 3 and 5 year old grandchildren has now taken to carrying around a Bible telling my Scarlett how many people she knows (including me) are going to hell to live with the devil for not believing in God and Jesus. For effing Christ's sake, now I'm going to have to work on dispelling that from their psyche. A 5 year old now running around the house telling mom she has to go to church on Sundays. This is his latest form of abuse towards my granddaughters. I just found out about it last week so when they stay with me thus weekend, I'm going to have to start working on explaining the difference between make believe and reality, history of different cultures and different religious beliefs and why some people believe what they do. I'd rather just color and read books to them. It's easier when someone is a stranger on an internet forum. I have to tread carefully not to turn them against their father and not make him look like the lunatic he is.

After that, it will be up to the girls to decide who is more likely telling them the truth.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Words often have more than one meaning. Bat can mean a flying mammal, or it can mean the stick that you hit a baseball with. The fact that there was a garbage heap called Gehinnom doesn't negate the fact that there is also an afterlife teaching of a temporary hell called Gehinnom.

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I do know that the word is used in conjunction with the garbage dump with fires that were burning constantly outside of Jerusalem. And from the Encyclopedia Britannica I see: "Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. This practice was carried out by the Israelites during the reigns of King Solomon in the 10th century BC and King Manasseh in the 7th century BC and continued until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC. Gehenna later was made a garbage centre to discourage a reintroduction of such sacrifices."

wandering peacefully said:

Well, it would be easy to say in the end, it is their own fault. And it is. But in the beginning of the indoctrination it is usually the fault of the parents who raise them. An example is my current situation where daughter's abusive boyfriend and father of my 3 and 5 year old grandchildren has now taken to carrying around a Bible telling my Scarlett how many people she knows (including me) are going to hell to live with the devil for not believing in God and Jesus. For effing Christ's sake, now I'm going to have to work on dispelling that from their psyche. A 5 year old now running around the house telling mom she has to go to church on Sundays. This is his latest form of abuse towards my granddaughters. I just found out about it last week so when they stay with me thus weekend, I'm going to have to start working on explaining the difference between make believe and reality, history of different cultures and different religious beliefs and why some people believe what they do. I'd rather just color and read books to them. It's easier when someone is a stranger on an internet forum. I have to tread carefully not to turn them against their father and not make him look like the lunatic he is.

After that, it will be up to the girls to decide who is more likely telling them the truth.

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That is why parents are responsible for their children, to a large degree. The Bible exhorts parents to raise their children according to God's standards but as we have discussed, interpretations vary, right or wrong and God sees what He wants to see.
I was raised in a certain way, my parents had a form of religion, never really spoke to me about God but would take me regularly to religious services, we observed certain family traditions, I was kind of left on my own to figure things out, and when I went to college away from home I began looking into other forms of religion and philosophy and life styles. I continued doing my own thing until I realized more about the Bible and God.

YoursTrue said:

I do know that the word is used in conjunction with the garbage dump with fires that were burning constantly outside of Jerusalem. And from the Encyclopedia Britannica I see: "Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. This practice was carried out by the Israelites during the reigns of King Solomon in the 10th century BC and King Manasseh in the 7th century BC and continued until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC. Gehenna later was made a garbage centre to discourage a reintroduction of such sacrifices."

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"In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense."
Gehinnom

IndigoChild5559 said:

"In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense."
Gehinnom

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That may be so as far as Jewish interpretation for many, but the Tanach has an account of Ahaz the king in Jerusalem who outrightly offered human sacrifices to Baal in the area known as Ben Hinnom.

Please notice, 2 Chronicles chapter 28, if you have a Bible, you can read further of the account:

"Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned for sixteen years in Jerusalem, and he did not do that which was proper in the eyes of the Lord like his father David.
2And he went in the ways of the kings of Israel, and he also made molten images for the baalim.
3And he burnt incense in the valley of Ben Hinnom, and he burnt his sons in fire, like the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had driven out from before the Children of Israel."

Later Gehenna was a burning place for garbage in the first century C.E. outside Jerusalem. You know it's interesting, because interpretations were developed as time went on.

IndigoChild5559 said:

"In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense."
Gehinnom

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It has been translated by some as hell, not really the same thing, and while misinterpretation has it that it is torment of the soul, putting it all together (from the beginning of creation of the human race), with God's help and proper study, one can understand that it does not mean torment of conscious alive-dead people.

YoursTrue said:

It has been translated by some as hell.

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Yes, it is a temporary hell.

YoursTrue said:

That is why parents are responsible for their children, to a large degree. The Bible exhorts parents to raise their children according to God's standards but as we have discussed, interpretations vary, right or wrong and God sees what He wants to see.
I was raised in a certain way, my parents had a form of religion, never really spoke to me about God but would take me regularly to religious services, we observed certain family traditions, I was kind of left on my own to figure things out, and when I went to college away from home I began looking into other forms of religion and philosophy and life styles. I continued doing my own thing until I realized more about the Bible and God.

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Sorry, I don't believe in the God of the Bible as a real entity nor the stories as actual reality. I certainly don't believe that parents should still, 3,000 years on, still be trying to convince young children that it is some kind of truth they should be following. It is abusive to tell small children they need to live in fear of a devil and an authoritative God who punishes them for not believing in a bronze age, regional, culture story.

I did the whole God of the Bible story thing. It just isn't reality. And it certainly is child abuse to force that on a young mind. If you still believe it as you have grown older and discovered it on your own, well that is on you. I'm not about to let another generation fall into that trap if I can help stop the cycle of abuse.