With bafflement upon bafflement!

Redemptionsong said:

'Christ' is the Spirit of God. In 1 Corinthians it says, And [the Israelites in the wilderness] did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.'

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That quote from 1 corinthians doesn't say "Christ is the Spirit of God'. That's interpretation. besides, 1 Corinthians violates Torah.

• It says circumcision is "nothing". ( 1 corinthians 7:19 ). The Torah says circumcision is an eternal covenant. ( Genesis 17:13 )
• It says all things were made from Christ ( 1 corinthians 8:6 ). The Torah says God created heaven and earth ( Genesis 1:1 ).

So, this falls into false prophet territory.

Redemptionsong said:

Jesus was not born until the days of Herod the Great. Jesus was baptised with the Holy Spirit, aged about thirty.

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He had a mystical experience. It's unknown what actually descended on him. ( 2 Corinthians 11:14 )

Redemptionsong said:

The condition that Jesus placed on the entering the kingdom was faith with love! This means placing faith in the king, and doing his will.

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Well. You're doing it again. Leaving out details.

Entering Jesus's kingdom requires faith with love IN HIM. Not just any love not just any faith, it must be directed to Jesus. He's the middle man collecting his fee. His currency is devotion. That means his kingdom is not the same kingdom in Daniel 7:27. The kingdom in Daniel is "given" to the "people". Jesus' kingdom comes at a price ( 1 corinthians 6:20 ).

Redemptionsong said:

Another way of putting it, would be to say, Worship God in Spirit and in truth.

How can you do this if you don't have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

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Both of those are cultivated. No Jesus needed. Psalms 51.

dybmh said:

That quote from 1 corinthians doesn't say "Christ is the Spirit of God'. That's interpretation. besides, 1 Corinthians violates Torah.

• It says circumcision is "nothing". ( 1 corinthians 7:19 ). The Torah says circumcision is an eternal covenant. ( Genesis 17:13 )
• It says all things were made from Christ ( 1 corinthians 8:6 ). The Torah says God created heaven and earth ( Genesis 1:1 ).

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Once again, l see this as just another temporal explanation for those things that God sees as eternal.

Cirmuncision is the outward sign of inner faith. To be circumcised in the flesh, but not to walk by faith is hypocrisy. The eternal covenant is in the faith, not in the symbol.

Secondly, Christ is the Word of God, and it is through the Word that creation took place: 'Let there be light' etc.

The confusion that appears to have arisen, is thinking that the Word was not in existence from the very beginning of creation. The Word is Christ. However, the human vessel into which the Word was poured does not appear until Mary gives birth to Jesus. So, Jesus is not eternal, but the Word is. This is the same as saying that Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God, but only after receiving baptism in the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus had been eternal, then it would make Mary eternal, because Jesus was not made without her involvement.

Redemptionsong said:

Writing some 700 years before the birth of Jesus, Isaiah provides a wonderful prophecy of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

What do Torah Jews make of Isaiah's prophecy?

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Torah Jews think that Chrsitians see all sorts of Jesus stuff in the Tanakh that isn't actually there. It's the Rorshach inkblot syndrome. In a word, I don't think there is any prophecy about the Holy Spirit coming on Shavuot in Isaiah. You have Jesus tinted glasses when you read.

dybmh said:

Entering Jesus's kingdom requires faith with love IN HIM. Not just any love not just any faith, it must be directed to Jesus. He's the middle man collecting his fee. His currency is devotion. That means his kingdom is not the same kingdom in Daniel 7:27. The kingdom in Daniel is "given" to the "people". Jesus' kingdom comes at a price ( 1 corinthians 6:20 ).

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I agree that it is faith IN HIM! Without faith in Christ, one is not walking by faith in a 'known' God. Christ is the contenance, or face, of God.

Daniel does not say that the people, or saints, receive the kingom without there being a king as head! The king must be reigning before the people can apply faith IN HIM! One cannot have a kingdom without a king.

Jews have always viewed God as the king. But there cannot be two kings, and one God. If God chooses to make Christ his king over heaven and earth, then Jews must recognise the king Messiah as their Lord and God. This is not what they are doing at the moment. Instead, they create a king Messiah who is not 'God with us', but a false Messiah who is fully man!

What is more, their 'temporal' thinking is leading to further idolatry, for the plan being devised amongst Torah Jews is to erect another temple in Jerusalem. Instead of recognising that God creates a spiritual temple in Christ, the Torah Jew has chosen to erect an idolatrous alternative!

IndigoChild5559 said:

Torah Jews think that Chrsitians see all sorts of Jesus stuff in the Tanakh that isn't actually there. It's the Rorshach inkblot syndrome. In a word, I don't think there is any prophecy about the Holy Spirit coming on Shavuot in Isaiah. You have Jesus tinted glasses when you read.

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IMO, the blindness of Torah Jews boils down to not being able to SEE Christ hidden in the words of scripture!

I see Christ as present in creation, as present in Abel's offering, as present in Noah's Ark, as present in Abraham's sacrifice, as present in Joseph's elevation to power, as present with Moses in the wilderness, as present in Joshua's entry into the Promised Land, as present with David the king, .....and he appears as the Angel of the Lord! This is before mentioning any of the specific prophecies about the Suffering Servant! Christ is everywhere, for the simple reason that Christ is the Word of God.

Isaiah 8:14. 'And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of lsrael, and for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem'.

Redemptionsong said:

IMO, the blindness of Torah Jews boils down to not being able to SEE Christ hidden in the words of scripture!

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IMO, the blindness of Christians boils down to not being able to SEE the Samaritan identity of Jesus hidden in the words of the NT!

Yes, this works both ways.

Harel13 said:

IMO, the blindness of Christians boils down to not being able to SEE the Samaritan identity of Jesus hidden in the words of the NT!

Yes, this works both ways.

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Can the son of David, of the tribe of Judah, also be a Samaritan?

Redemptionsong said:

Can the son of David, of the tribe of Judah, also be a Samaritan?

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Yes, we've gone over this already. There were Jews who joined the Samaritans.

Harel13 said:

Yes, we've gone over this already. There were Jews who joined the Samaritans.

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Well, thank you for forcing me to read more about Samaritanism.

It turns out that Jesus cannot be a Samaritan on the grounds that: 1. Jesus believed himself to be the Son of God. Samaritans did not believe that God had a Son.
2. Samaritans believed in the Torah, and the book of Joshua, but not the rest of the Tanakh. Jesus, however, quotes from the Prophets and Writings, including Isaiah, the Psalms and Jonah.

In Luke 24:27, it says, 'And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself'.

Now, a Samaritan wouldn't do that, would he?

Redemptionsong said:

Well, thank you for forcing me to read more about Samaritanism.

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You're most welcome.

Redemptionsong said:

It turns out that Jesus cannot be a Samaritan

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What a surprise...

Redemptionsong said:

1. Jesus believed himself to be the Son of God.

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Debatable, as you know well.

Redemptionsong said:

Samaritans believed in the Torah, and the book of Joshua, but not the rest of the Tanakh. Jesus, however, quotes from the Prophets and Writings, including Isaiah, the Psalms and Jonah.

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I don't know what you read and where (I hope you haven't limited yourself to Wikipedia), but I once spoke to some Samaritans and I was informed that though they don't consider other biblical texts as holy like the Pentateuch and the Samaritan Joshua, they do use them. But they don't consider them 100% perfect. They're not on the level of Samaritan scripture.
Ancient Samaritan attitudes towards scripture merits, at the very least, looking into. By the way, some scholars today believe that the ancient Samaritans weren't homogenous in customs, traditions and worldviews. In other words, they were divided into sects.

Harel13 said:

Debatable, as you know well.

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I said that Jesus believed himself to be the Son of God, and this seems to be true from what he says, and what John the Baptist heard from heaven.

Matthew 3:16,17. 'And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom l am well pleased.'

Luke 4:41. 'And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuked them suffering them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ'.

So, it seems that even the evil spirits knew the true identity of Jesus!

Redemptionsong said:

I said that Jesus believed himself to be the Son of God, and this seems to be true from what he says, and what John the Baptist heard from heaven.

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Yes, I read you the first time. Nonetheless, the subject remains highly debatable.

Redemptionsong said:

Once again, l see this as just another temporal explanation for those things that God sees as eternal.

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Who defines what God sees as eternal? You personally, or God?

Redemptionsong said:

Cirmuncision is the outward sign of inner faith. To be circumcised in the flesh, but not to walk by faith is hypocrisy. The eternal covenant is in the faith, not in the symbol.

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God didn't say that about circumcision. The covenant is the action, not the intention. God wants the action regardless. What you're saying is in opposition to scripture.

Redemptionsong said:

Christ is the Word of God, and it is through the Word that creation took place: 'Let there be light' etc.

The confusion that appears to have arisen, is thinking that the Word was not in existence from the very beginning of creation. The Word is Christ. However, the human vessel into which the Word was poured does not appear until Mary gives birth to Jesus. So, Jesus is not eternal, but the Word is. This is the same as saying that Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God, but only after receiving baptism in the Holy Spirit.

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No, no. I totally understand the concept. It comes from the Book of John exclusively. No other Gospel corroborates it. It is in opposition to Torah; it's false prophecy. The right thing for Jews to do is reject the false source and its teachings.

The serpent encouraged Eve to break God's law. Paul encouraged Jews to break God's law. Paul should be ignored per scripture. Prove me wrong.

Harel13 said:

I don't know what you read and where (I hope you haven't limited yourself to Wikipedia), but I once spoke to some Samaritans and I was informed that though they don't consider other biblical texts as holy like the Pentateuch and the Samaritan Joshua, they do use them. But they don't consider them 100% perfect. They're not on the level of Samaritan scripture.
Ancient Samaritan attitudes towards scripture merits, at the very least, looking into. By the way, some scholars today believe that the ancient Samaritans weren't homogenous in customs, traditions and worldviews. In other words, they were divided into sects.

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Even the claim that the Samaritans used texts other than the Penteteuch and Joshua, does not make these other texts authoratitive to Samaritans. Yet, Jesus makes statements that do treat of them as authoratitive.

It seems to me that you cannot have it both ways. If Jesus had converted to a form of Samaritanism, it would be evident in his beliefs and practices. Yet, neither Jesus' beliefs nor practices (such as attendance at the temple in Jerusalem) suggest that he had adopted Samaritanism. The allegations made by the Pharisees against Jesus and his disciples are of a different nature altogether, and relate to specific issues of interpretation.

dybmh said:

Who defines what God sees as eternal? You personally, or God?

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I think that the word 'eternal' has a meaning we can both agree upon. It does not mean 'temporal', and it is applied to concepts that break the limitations of time! Most people would say that eternal means something along the lines of 'without beginning or end'. Love, for example, is a concept that is not bound by time.

Here's an example from the Psalms.
18:50. 'Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore'.

Now, God is majestic, for this passage could be read in two ways. You could read it to be talking about David, or you could read it to be talking about king Messiah. Or, it could be BOTH. And, it's the latter view l take.

The first interpretation makes David the subject, and his seed the Messiah.

The second interpretation makes the king Messiah the subject, and his seed the believers in Christ.

Now, let me refer you to Psalm 22, once again. In verse 30 it says, 'A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation'.

Who is the seed serving? Is it David, or king Messiah?

dybmh said:

The serpent encouraged Eve to break God's law. Paul encouraged Jews to break God's law. Paul should be ignored per scripture. Prove me wrong.

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The lie here is that Paul encourages the breaking of the law.

These are Paul's words to Timothy: 1 Timothy 1:8,9.' But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,'

Why would a person who demonstrates love towards his God and his neighbour require the discipline of the law?

Redemptionsong said:

I agree that it is faith IN HIM! Without faith in Christ, one is not walking by faith in a 'known' God. Christ is the contenance, or face, of God.

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Beyond God's actions, and what is said about God in scripture, God is unknowable. If your god is knowable. That's a different god.

King David's God is unknowable. God is more than any concept or combination of concepts.

Jeremiah says basically the same thing:

The meaning of these verses is that God is greater than anything that can be imagined.

Redemptionsong said:

Daniel does not say that the people, or saints, receive the kingom without there being a king as head! The king must be reigning before the people can apply faith IN HIM! One cannot have a kingdom without a king.

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Sorry, but no. Faith isn't required. Faith does not make an appearance in Daniel 7.

If you want to make a logical argument about a nation and a king that fails too. The citizens of a nation do not need to have faith if the king is all powerful. As long as the king can enforce its will, faith isn't needed.

Redemptionsong said:

Jews have always viewed God as the king. But there cannot be two kings, and one God. If God chooses to make Christ his king over heaven and earth, then Jews must recognise the king Messiah as their Lord and God. This is not what they are doing at the moment. Instead, they create a king Messiah who is not 'God with us', but a false Messiah who is fully man!

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This needs to be rephrased to be understood.

Recognizing King Messiah as God is polytheism. Is that what you meant?? Please see the scripture I quoted which states "none is like/as God".

Also per scripture, God is always with the Jewish people.

Joshua 1:9

Also God is everywhere! God is "with" everyone, everything, all the time.

Jeremiah 23:24


So, the Future King is not "God is with us", that's already / always happening.

Redemptionsong said:

What is more, their 'temporal' thinking is leading to further idolatry, for the plan being devised amongst Torah Jews is to erect another temple in Jerusalem. Instead of recognising that God creates a spiritual temple in Christ, the Torah Jew has chosen to erect an idolatrous alternative!

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Uh-oh. Another serpentine reply. This is a LIE. Building the temple comes directly from scripture and you know it. There's chapters about it in Ezekiel. And no one is worshipping the temple, or the concept of a temple. No idolatry here.

Exodus 20:16, Proverbs 6:16-17 Proverbs 12:22, Proverbs 19:9, Psalms 43:1

See how that list keeps getting longer. Each time you post a lie, I keep adding one to the list. It's a nice way to keep track of how much falsehood is coming from you.

Redemptionsong said:

I see Christ as present in creation, as present in Abel's offering, as present in Noah's Ark, as present in Abraham's sacrifice, as present in Joseph's elevation to power, as present with Moses in the wilderness, as present in Joshua's entry into the Promised Land, as present with David the king, .....and he appears as the Angel of the Lord! This is before mentioning any of the specific prophecies about the Suffering Servant! Christ is everywhere, for the simple reason that Christ is the Word of God.

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Something to consider, the opposite of blindness is hallucination.

Redemptionsong said:

I think that the word 'eternal' has a meaning we can both agree upon. It does not mean 'temporal', and it is applied to concepts that break the limitations of time! Most people would say that eternal means something along the lines of 'without beginning or end'. Love, for example, is a concept that is not bound by time.

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First of all, I like that you said Love is a concept. Bravo! I think you're getting it.

Second, the rest of your reply does not address the issue. God says circumcision is eternal. Paul says it isn't. You say it isn't. Your god and Paul's god is not the God of Torah. Changing the subject concedes the point.