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Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
But what exists in reality exists in reality
That's rather obvious..... And so? Do you have a point to make?
The point flew right over your head,Tb, as it often does.
I was pointing out that 'What exists in reality exists in reality' is a tautology, as is "What does not exist in reality does not exist in reality".
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
The problem of evil does not negate God's existence, it only negates a loving God, IMO, but God does not have to be loving in order to exist.
Evil is certainly a problem, to say the least. What makes you say that it is a problem which negates a loving God?
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
My parents were raised Catholics but didn't push it on us. I remember lots of Catholics living in fear of not going to Mass and committing a mortal sin.

That's an interesting verse, because the Baha'is don't believe that Jesus was raised physically from the dead. Which is one reason why I question them. They say they believe in the Bible and NT, but I don't think they really do. They believe what they want to about the Bible and the NT. But at least they dumped the devil, demons and a literal place called hell.
You are correct. They believe what fits with whatever point they are making at the time.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But what exists in reality exists in reality

The point flew right over your head,Tb, as it often does.
I was pointing out that 'What exists in reality exists in reality' is a tautology, as is "What does not exist in reality does not exist in reality".
Your point did not fly over my head at all.
You did not need to point out that "What does not exist in reality does not exist in reality" and that is why when you said that I said: "That's rather obvious....."
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Evil is certainly a problem, to say the least. What makes you say that it is a problem which negates a loving God?
Evil acts committed by humans do not negate a loving God, but suffering that comes upon humans through God's will makes the idea of a loving God very questionable.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Evil is certainly a problem, to say the least. What makes you say that it is a problem which negates a loving God?
Well if you think evil is a problem then wouldn't a God?

And if this God is loving, and the Creator, then how is creating evil consistent with love?

Certainly this God had the option not to create evil, yet it did. If you were God would you create evil? In your life do you deliberately create problems for those you love?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well if you think evil is a problem then wouldn't a God?

And if this God is loving, and the Creator, then how is creating evil consistent with love?

Certainly this God had the option not to create evil, yet it did. If you were God would you create evil? In your life do you deliberately create problems for those you love?
God did not create evil. Humans create evil by failing to do good.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
God did not create evil.
The Bible clarifies that God DID create evil.

Humans create evil by failing to do good.
And all things in creation exist because of the creator. This is a serious dilemma for believers. It's a trap set by your own religious tradition.

Deists and atheists don't have this dilemma. What exists is due to nature and an indifferent universe. Evil is a consequence of how the human brain evolved.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
The Bible clarifies that God DID create evil.

Yes, the Bible does clarify that God did create evil. According to Isaiah 45:7, God creates evil.

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Bible clarifies that God DID create evil.
Whether God creates evil, disaster, or causes trouble depends upon which Bible translation you believe.
God also forms the light and makes peace, good times and well-being, but I notice you never give God any credit for anything good.

Isaiah 45:7
KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

AMP
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

ERV
I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause trouble. I, the Lord, do all these things.

EHV
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness, the one who makes peace and creates disaster. I am the Lord, the one who does all these things.

ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

TLB
I form the light and make the dark. I send good times and bad. I, Jehovah, am he who does these things.

NABRE
I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NCB
I form the light and create the darkness; prosperity and disaster depend upon my will; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NCV
I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.

NIRV
I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.

NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
And all things in creation exist because of the creator. This is a serious dilemma for believers. It's a trap set by your own religious tradition.
All things, both good and bad....
God is not responsible for what happened after everything came into existence because God gave humans free will to take care of the world.
Deists and atheists don't have this dilemma. What exists is due to nature and an indifferent universe. Evil is a consequence of how the human brain evolved.
No, the brain did not evolve to do evil. Evil is a consequence of human free will choices to commit evil acts. Good is also a consequence of free will choices.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, the Bible does clarify that God did create evil. According to Isaiah 45:7, God creates evil.
According to Isaiah 45:7, God also makes peace, brings prosperity, and makes well-being.
It is unfair to look only at part of the verse that supports your position and ignore the rest.

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Your point did not fly over my head at all.
You did not need to point out that "What does not exist in reality does not exist in reality" and that is why when you said that I said: "That's rather obvious....."
That point is still flying, Tb.
Meanwhile, you are tying yourself in knots.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
According to Isaiah 45:7, God also makes peace, brings prosperity, and makes well-being.
It is unfair to look only at part of the verse that supports your position and ignore the rest.

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."
Context?
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
It is God's will that people suffer?
It seems so..

22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
- Matthew 5 -

I am not suggesting that God Almighty wants us to commit sins and suffer, but He knows that many of us will suffer in this life and the next.
One could interpret that as God's will .. suffering is part of reality.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
The problem of evil

img_3808.jpg
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Whether God creates evil, disaster, or causes trouble depends upon which Bible translation you believe.
God also forms the light and makes peace, good times and well-being, but I notice you never give God any credit for anything good.

Isaiah 45:7
KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
There you go, you just contradicted yourself. In post 729 you wrote "God does not create evil." and now you admit you are wtrong. So why do we take your posts seriously when your beliefs are all over the place and claim whatever you want in the moment?

God is not responsible for what happened after everything came into existence because God gave humans free will to take care of the world.
And if God won't intervene, then God is guilty of unleashing something bad that it won't stop. It's like a runaway train.

No, the brain did not evolve to do evil. Evil is a consequence of human free will choices to commit evil acts. Good is also a consequence of free will choices.
If the human brain was perfect, consistently wise, and intelligent, you might have a point. But human brains are not perfect. They have a very large emotion center that drives many beliefs, actions, and choices. Some people have brain defects, like the defect that results in sociopaths. They can't feel empathy, and there is no solution. About 1 in every 24 people are born sociaths, and they will hurt others.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
..and all this shows that Jesus and Muhammad do not tell the truth?
Assuming a Jesus existed as the myth describes, and assuming the words were recorded accurately, and assuming all the edits in the Bible were justified and didn't change the meanings.....

What makes anything these characters in books to be telling the truth when the ideas are NOT verifiable as TRUE? When people refer to Gods, angels, demons, whatever can we be confident they are telling the truth, or do we have healthy skepitism? I have skepticism. You decide these texts are true because you have other, non-rational motives.

When ordinary, every day mortal believers, like you, claims some text is the truth then you had better have a rational basis for that claim. No one is obligated to accept your faith-based reasons to decide truth. You have no authority as a God, nor from a God, for anyone to accept your beliefs and claims.

Not to me. I expect to see corruption in human affairs.
Look at religions for their own forms of corruption.

Religious belief does not turn people into faultless angels.
..and hypocrisy also exists, where people pay lip-service only.
This is why I request believers use the same rational tools as critical thinkers when they contribute in religious debates. If religion offers no advantage, then believers had better use reliable tools, like reason.


It means that they don't lie about the existence of God and that they were indeed sent by Him to teach and warn.
That's not supported by facts or reason. I'm asking you to provide evidence, not accepting ideas by faith just because others around you believe it.

Do Muslims have facts that support their beklief? Or do Muslims just accept what other Muslims around them believe, and carry on these ideas via social learning?


I don't actually. I acknowledge that they believe in God, Jesus and/or Muhammad, but have a different tradition or understanding.
So are you saying that you believe Hindus are actually beliving in the Abrahamic God, even though Hindus existed before Jews and their idea of Yahweh was formed from the Caananite polytheistic system?

Do you have any evidence, or are you trying to impose your belief onto them to help explain the differences in belief?


Yes, of course. We are all a product of our experiences.
I can't set it aside, because I have no reason to believe that the Qur'an is a forgery.
Who is saying that the Quran is a forgery? A better explantion is that it was poetic expressions from people who had nvery little factual and scientific approach to knowledge and life. I think it more rational to interpret the Bible, Quran, Mormon Bible, the Urantia book, etc. in a symbolic way rather than literal. There is no credible arguments or reasons to interpret these books literally given they make controdictory claims, and the supernatural claims are not based in fact.

If you can prove to me, beyond reasonable doubt that it is, I will discard my belief.
I don't think you are sincere since you have rejected bnrutally honest examinations of your breligious belief, yet still believe. And that on to of the fact you offer us no factual and rational basis for what you believe. This suests your beliefs are emotional, and satisfying to your reward system, and you are habituated.

I'm the same as you .. human .. and I evaluate and make conclusions, based on my experience and many other considerations.
'
We are both human, but we are not using our human brain the same way. I use my reasoning centers when examining religious concepts. You are not. I have been exposed to religious ideas all my life, but I was willing to question these ideas because they did not resonate as true.

I know why I believe it.
..because, unlike you, I don't consider the Qur'an is a product of men.
The Quran has factual erros, and makes claims not consistent with fact, so why do you assume it was not from men?

The most likely expalanation is that it was written by humans, just as the Bible, the Bahai tezts, the Mormon Bible, the Urantia book, etc. We see no divine and miraculous effects from these books, and lots of errors.

It confirms the Bible, and explains the trinity, which never made much sense to me as a Christian.
The "mystery" became very clear.
It never occurred to you that the Quran was inspired by the Bible, and repeated some of its ideas?


Of course it is.
If the Bible and Qur'an did not exist, you could then claim there is no evidence.
It is just that you don't believe it .. you think it is fraud or delusion.
I assert that modern people making claims about holy books that are inconsistent with reality is irrational. Critical thinkers illustrate the best and most reliable approach to what the Quran and Bible are, and that is not what Christians and Muslims assume.

Christians and Muslim HAVE to assume their books are divine and true. If you did not, then you couldn't identify yourself as Muslim, or Christian. The religious identity is meaningless without tassuming the books are true, so what rational choice do you allow yourself as a Muslim? There is no freedom to consider anything beyond what you assume is true.


I agree .. but I might have moved to another state and discovered Islam.
Who knows? :)
You do. Whether your integrity as thinker will wholely examine why you believe what you do you will be limited by, and trapped within, your circular reasoning.
 
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