I do not see that is the case.
The proof is the bane of those that do not accept it as proof, otherwise it is sound and logical.
Thus truth is relative.
Regards Tony
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I do not see that is the case.
The proof is the bane of those that do not accept it as proof, otherwise it is sound and logical.
Thus truth is relative.
Regards Tony
[QUOTE="England my lionheart, post: 7943 I guess it’s how high you set the bar for proof but logic is what it is.[/QUOTE]
I see we must set it very, very high.
Regards Tony
I see we must set it very, very high.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Then why do you reject the physical resurrection of Jesus? If you believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead? But really... Baha'is believe the miracles in the Bible really happened? Unfortunately, that might be worse than not believing them. So, Elijah was carried off on a fiery chariot? Jonah survived inside a big fish for three days. And Baha'is believe Jesus cast out demons and walked on water? I don't see why Baha'is would believe these things, since so many go against science. But okay, if you say so. But I guess that makes Abdul Baha' wrong about the resurrection of Jesus? Or that's different? And that was symbolic?
We do not reject the flesh CG, we are born into flesh.
Jesus told us not to put important on the flesh CG, so the better question may be why do people put important on the flesh?
Regards Tony
You have to decide what you beleive CG.
For me, I got to read all those Bible Passages in the knowledge of what Baha'u'llah offered. So I was not attached to any prior interpretation on those passages.
In the end, I do not need to dwell on them, as all the truth they contain, is contained in the Messages that came after Christ, so the Quran and the Bab's Writings also give meaning those Miracles.
I wish you all the best as you explore all those possibilities.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
It's not a matter of "dwelling" on the flesh. Lots of people don't believe the resurrection and other Bible stories. The problem is that Baha'is claim they believe in all the major religions and believe, sort of, in the Scriptures of those religions. Abdul Baha' makes the resurrection a completely symbolic thing. The NT writers make it a real event. And it was important for Christians to have a risen savior. A God/man that conquered death and Satan. Fiction? Yes, I can believe that. But I might be wrong. And that's the difference. What Baha'is claim has to be 100% right.
You act as if this one verse you found about the flesh amounting to nothing is enough to make the resurrection unimportant. But Baha'is don't only make it unimportant, they deny it even happened. And that goes against what the gospels say did happen. Which, again, would not be a big deal if Baha'is didn't also claim that the Bible is true. And by true, Baha'is really mean that some of it is true, some of it isn't literally true, but symbolically true, and some of it you don't know.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So, do you believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and cast demons out of people and walked on water? I think there is a good chance all those things were just the writer embellishing the story to make Jesus a miracle man. But Baha'is believe they really happened but aren't all that important? I don't think Baha'is really believe that? I think lots of Baha'is will explain them away by making them symbolic.
The issue you may face CG is what is "REAL"!
A good meditation is found in the Writings about what is "REAL". The flesh we inhabit is but a blink in time, currently a human lives an average of 72.98 years in 2022, out of the eternity that is the past and the future.
All the while the Messengers Live in that eternity CG fully conscious of what is REAL. All those souls that pass on also share that eternity.
"...Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot "fatten nor appease his hunger." (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CLIII, pp. 328-329)
As to this world CG, it is a test for us all, it is perfect testing ground for the potential of our spiritual capacity, Baha'u'llah did offer this
"...O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain..." (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CLIII, pp. 328-329)
That is such a bounty. This world becomes a place to do what we can for each other, face the tests in Love and service, we do not need material pursuits, they are our downfall.
So it has been offered,
"... Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: "Do men think when they say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?" [Qur'án 29:2] (Kitáb-i-Íqán, p8, pp. 8-9)
All the best CG. I see in the end one does not need to reconcile the stories, one only has to thank God for the bounty of life and then live to serve the greater good and help anyone we find that needs help, be an enemy to no other man, a Lover of all mankind.
Regards Tony
I do not discount the miracles, but I did not witness them and even many of those that witnessed them did not beleive because of them.
So what are the resulting spiritual lesson CG, that is why Jesus came and was the Christ?
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I agree. It's a great testing ground. That's why I don't rule out reincarnation. Why only put a soul through the test only once? Why not put the soul in different bodies, in different situations, and at different times?
As there are many worlds of God CG and this has a specific purpose.
"Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more."
Bahá’u’lláh, The Persian Hidden Words 40
We do not get another go in this matrix, makes sense as we have one birth into this world, we can be born into the next while here.
"When one is released from the prison of self, that is indeed release, for that is the greater prison. When this release takes place, then one cannot be outwardly imprisoned."
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 120
"That is why He [Christ] addressed God, saying: "Free Me from the bonds of the world of the body, and liberate Me from this cage, so that I may ascend to the heights of honor and glory, and attain unto the former grandeur and might which existed before the bodily world, that I may rejoice in the eternal world and may ascend to the original abode, the placeless world, the invisible kingdom."
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 116
Regards Tony
joelr
Well-Known Member
That is an apologetic and a bad one at that. They don't come as scientists yet they do a chapter on science, explain scientific concepts, give literal scientific solutions, yet are all wrong.
If the purpose is only to find a spiritual self why is he riffing on about evolution and all the scientific topics? Why explain that an ether exists in empty space?
This is pure nonsense and almost delusional. Science has never discovered any God? The consensus is there is no theistic deity operating and this runs through all the sciences. And faith and science are not 2 wings, even in a metaphor.
Science is a method for discovering truth. Faith is a method for confirmation bias. The Germans had faith that there was an Aryan race and it was the supreme race. And so on.
Islam, Mormons and J Witness all have faith that they are literally correct and all others go to hell.
This is what faith gives you and you think it's an equal wing on a bird with science??
As you write this on a computer????????
I think you mean when faith is used to believe the same religious beliefs as you believe. Unity of purpose? What does that even mean?
Different humans have different purposes. Some want to explore new planets, some want to race cars around a track.
People should not use faith at all, it's a terrible marker of what is true. Is this advice given in Bahai scripture?
joelr
Well-Known Member
It's very unconvincing. It really looks like a man who used the Quran, Bible and some Hindu text to write his work. But I haven't yet seen any theology, laws, or stories to serve as at least metaphor or anything that would replace a religion?
Ether is a spiritual an intelligible reality, not a sensible reality and fills the voids. There is no empty space.
"Even the ether, the forces of which are said in natural philosophy to be heat, light, electricity, and magnetism, is an intelligible and not a sensible reality.
".... the heavens are a restrained wave because a void is impossible and inconceivable...."
Not sure how this will tie back into science, but it does.
Regards Tony
That is just indicative as to how wrong about reality that some, not all, scientist can choose to be.
Regards Tony
Look at the binary code that made all the Web and AI possible.
The letters B & E were joined an knit together and God gave us creation and then expanded it with the Word of God.
Why is it so hard to beleive that there is intelligence guiding humanity?
Regards Tony
joelr
Well-Known Member
So first he's calling the medium of spacetime where heat, light, electricity and magnetism flow to be an ether. That was the belief in that time that it was an ether. It was an incorrect belief. He is also calling those forces mentioned "intelligible".
Things that are intelligible are - " have no outward form or place and which are not sensible." like love he says.
Also wrong. Light is a physical object and is made of photons. Electricity is a plasma and so on, all of those things have a physical reality. Not known back then so he also didn't know. Because he is a man using the knowledge of the day to try and come off as if he's getting divine messages. He is not.
"or this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds."
So in Newtonian understanding it was an attractive force. In QM it can also be repulsive. Which he didn't know because he's limited to knowledge known by humans.
Yes it traces to Aristotle, nature abhors a vacuum. He is just using Greek knowledge, just like the Quran and Bible did. No Gods.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Scientists are wrong because they don't insert a magical, invisible being that there exists absolutely zero evidence for?
Do you even know what science is and how it works?
joelr
Well-Known Member
Because there isn't. It's fiction. Nature is guiding everything. Nature is not an intelligence. You seem to think there is a magical consciousness like a giant human ghost directing things. But there isn't evidence for this. Nature is impersonal and not a consciousness. These forces are not Gods. Gods exist in stories and myth only.
Our universe is highly mathematical. So math shows up. It's also using symmetry which shows up a lot.
There is no thinking, speaking being. There are people who make false claims just like the ufo field. Their evidence always reflects the fact that they are not being honest.