"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

3rdAngel said:

Please forgive me dear friend but I do not believe you. You were also directly shown the scriptures in earlier posts that state Jesus is God. You ignored everyone of them.

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You're free to think Jesus is God. For many Christians he's been God for some time, not least since the invention of the incoherent Trinity Doctrine in the 4th century.

However, what you don't have, because it doesn't exist, is a biblical Jesus saying "I am God".

And what you do have ─ as I showed you way back ─ is all five versions of Jesus saying "I am not God."

Which means that if Jesus, despite his specific denials, was indeed God, then his earthly mission was one long pretense and deceit.

But if we stay with what the gospels say he said, we avoid the embarrassment of the Jesus of Mark, and the Jesus of Matthew, saying "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?"

And all four gospel versions saying "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me."

And so on.

Bye now.

blü 2 said:

You're free to think Jesus is God. For many Christians he's been God for some time, not least since the invention of the incoherent Trinity Doctrine in the 4th century.

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I believe that Jesus is God because that is what the bible says as shown in post # 446 that you refuse to respond to.

blü 2 said:

However, what you don't have, because it doesn't exist, is a biblical Jesus saying "I am God".

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Which are your words disagreeing with Gods' Word as shown in post # 446 that you refuse to respond to. For example as posted earlier...

• JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.

John makes it very clear what he is talking about again here...

• 1 JOHN 5:20 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son JESUS CHRIST HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.

The Apostles Thomas also believed Jesus was God here...

• JOHN 20:28 28 Thomas answered him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!”

As does the writer of Hebrews quoting God here...

• HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.

Peter knew Jesus was God and states so here...

• 2 PETER 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

Paul shows his belief that Jesus is God here...

• TITUS 2:13 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

• PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 5, Let this mind be in you, which was also in CHRIST JESUS: 6, WHO BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD

The Jews continued to seek to kill Jesus because he they claimed Jesus was claiming himself to be God here...

• JOHN 10:30-33 30 I and the father are one. 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.”

The Angel even calls Jesus God here..

• LUKE 1:35 “The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and HE WILL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD”

So yes you were provided scripture evidence showing that the gospel writers and the Apostles believed Jesus was God. Stating anything otherwise is simply being dishonest. You just simply ignored this post (from post # 356 linked) as you did my responses to your last questions in in post # 356 linked and post # 366 linked. I am still awaiting a response from you but all I hear is silence. So until you start responding to my posts showing why what you are claiming is not supported in the scriptures, we will of course agree to disagree.

blü 2 said:

And what you do have ─ as I showed you way back ─ is all five versions of Jesus saying "I am not God."

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Jesus does not say anywhere in the entire bible that He is not God your making that one up but He does say this...

• JOHN 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE

A detailed scripture study was also shown to you from the old and new testament scriptures proving "one" in plural application (see post # 349 linked)

blü 2 said:

Which means that if Jesus, despite his specific denials, was indeed God, then his earthly mission was one long pretense and deceit. But if we stay with what the gospels say he said, we avoid the embarrassment of the Jesus of Mark, and the Jesus of Matthew, saying "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?"

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Jesus never denied that He was God and there is no embarrassment of the Jesus of Mark, and the Jesus of Matthew, saying "Me, me, why have I forsaken me. God is plural and united that is three separate entities that are one (see scripture evidence provided in see post # 349 linked. I think what you perhaps what you have not considered here is that when the Apostles and gospel writer John says that when Jesus as God who was with God and was God in John 1:1-4 came to our world to live as a man (John 1:14) that in doing so Jesus did not come to live as a God but to live a life only as a man to fulfill all righteousness as a man needs to so that he could be Gods (plural) perfect sacrifice for sin to all those who believe on Him (see Philippians 2:5-8). This is perhaps what you are not considering. Jesus as God in order to become our prefect sacrifice for sin had to come and live as a man and die as a man in order to pay the penalty for all the sins of mankind and be Gods' perfect sacrifice for sin. You see God (plural) so loved us that Jesus gave up His life as God in order to come to seek and save is and die for our sin so that we can receive Gods' forgiveness of sins by dying the death that was ours because we have all sinned and the wages of our sins without Jesus is death *Romans 6:23.

Take Care.

3rdAngel said:

I believe that Jesus is God because that is what the bible says as shown in post # 446 that you refuse to respond to.

Which are your words disagreeing with Gods' Word as shown in post # 446 that you refuse to respond to. For example as posted earlier...

• JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.

John makes it very clear what he is talking about again here...

• 1 JOHN 5:20 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son JESUS CHRIST HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.

The Apostles Thomas also believed Jesus was God here...

• JOHN 20:28 28 Thomas answered him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!”

As does Paul quoting God here...

• HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.

Peter knew Jesus was God and states so here...

• 2 PETER 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

Paul shows his belief that Jesus is God here...

• TITUS 2:13 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

The Jews continued to seek to kill Jesus because he they claimed Jesus was claiming himself to be God here...

• JOHN 10:30-33 30 I and the father are one. 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.”

The Angel even calls Jesus God here..

• LUKE 1:35 “The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and HE WILL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD”

So yes you were provided scripture evidence showing that the gospel writers and the Apostles believed Jesus was God. Stating anything otherwise is simply being dishonest. You just simply ignored this post (from post # 356 linked) as you did my responses to your last questions in in post # 356 linked and post # 366 linked. I am still awaiting a response from you but all I hear is silence. So until you start responding to my posts showing why what you are claiming is not supported in the scriptures, we will of course agree to disagree.

Jesus does not say anywhere in the entire bible that He is not God your making that one up but He does say this...

• JOHN 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE

A detailed scripture study was also shown to you from the old and new testament scriptures proving "one" in plural application (see post # 349 linked)

Jesus never denied that He was God and there is no embarrassment of the Jesus of Mark, and the Jesus of Matthew, saying "Me, me, why have I forsaken me. God is plural and united that is three separate entities that are one (see scripture evidence provided in see post # 349 linked. I think what you perhaps what you have not considered here is that when the Apostles and gospel writer John says that when Jesus as God who was with God and was God in John 1:1-4 came to our world to live as a man (John 1:14) that in doing so Jesus did not come to live as a God but to live a life only as a man to fulfill all righteousness as a man needs to so that he could be Gods (plural) perfect sacrifice for sin to all those who believe on Him (see Philippians 2:5-8). This is perhaps what you are not considering. Jesus as God in order to become our prefect sacrifice for sin had to come and live as a man and die as a man in order to pay the penalty for all the sins of mankind and be Gods' perfect sacrifice for sin. You see God (plural) so loved us that Jesus gave up His life as God in order to come to seek and save is and die for our sin so that we can receive Gods' forgiveness of sins by dying the death that was ours because we have all sinned and the wages of our sins without Jesus is death *Romans 6:23.

Take Care.

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Blah blah blah.

Still no quote of Jesus saying "I am God."

Still all those quotes of Jesus which I set out for you saying "I'm not God."

Have a lovely day.

3rdAngel said:

Sure no problem if it might be helpful.... see your comments in post # 370; post # 371; post # 374; post # 375; post # 381; post # 386; post # 389: post # 439; post # 440; post # 442 and post # 448. Your words are not God's Word.

Take Care.

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So, nothing, then??!!

blü 2 said:

Blah blah blah.Still no quote of Jesus saying "I am God."
Still all those quotes of Jesus which I set out for you saying "I'm not God."Have a lovely day.

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So no response to all the scriptures that disagree with you provided in post # 457 linked that say Jesus is God? I wonder why. Have a nice day.

Soapy said:

So, nothing, then??!!

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Exactly, you have nothing. We are best to believe and follow what the scriptures teach because according to Romans 3:4 and Acts 5:29 only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them. Ignoring the scriptures do not make them disappear. According to Jesus in John 12:47-48 they become our judge come judgement day.

3rdAngel said:

So no response to all the scriptures that disagree with you provided in post # 457 linked that say Jesus is God? I wonder why. Have a nice day.

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No Jesus saying "I am God." All five models of Jesus saying "I'm not God."

So: either Jesus is not God, just as all five of him say; or Jesus is a persistent liar and deceiver, just as all five of him say.

I note you favor the liar choice. Seems odd to me, but it's your call.

3rdAngel said:

So no response to all the scriptures that disagree with you provided in post # 457 linked that say Jesus is God? I wonder why. Have a nice day.

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You need to be fair about claims like that. As I said, I bogged through 15 of your citations and NONE of them was a claim by Jesus to be God. If you can't get one in 15 right, why would I think you'd get one in 150 right?

And as the record shows, when I invited you to discuss just one of my examples of Jesus saying, you didn't ─ instead you filled the sky with more fluff, which falls within the principle I mentioned in my preceding paragraph.

The truth is that you don't have a single example of any biblical Jesus saying "I am God."

And I have given you examples of all five models stating that they're not God.

Which you refuse to discuss individually.

And I continue to disagree with your claim that Mark's and Matthew's Jesuses said, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me". Still, that's your belief, and so it's a matter for you.

Have a nice day

Subduction Zone said:

No, Tales grow with telling. Lies are purposefully attempting to deceive by telling something untrue. A lies has to have the intent of deception . That can be very hard to prove. It is better to say that they were just wrong.

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So all you need do is assume that none of those who were there to know about the resurrection actually got to see the written gospel stories and veto them.
But of course the gospel began a certain way and with those who were there as witnesses and went for long enough that way with the witnesses there, to establish the story so that it would not be exaggerated later on.
It could be lied about but not exaggerated.

Brian2 said:

So all you need do is assume that none of those who were there to know about the resurrection actually got to see the written gospel stories and veto them.
But of course the gospel began a certain way and with those who were there as witnesses and went for long enough that way with the witnesses there, to establish the story so that it would not be exaggerated later on.
It could be lied about but not exaggerated.

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What? Your post doesn't make sense as written. What resurrection? And none of the Gospels appear to be eyewitness accounts. The earliest was more than a generation after the fact.

blü 2 said:

No Jesus saying "I am God." All five models of Jesus saying "I'm not God."

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I have no idea what your talking about. What is all five models of Jesus mean? The apostles and gospel writers already knew and called Jesus God as shown in post # 457 linked

blü 2 said:

So: either Jesus is not God, just as all five of him say; or Jesus is a persistent liar and deceiver, just as all five of him say. I note you favor the liar choice. Seems odd to me, but it's your call.

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Jesus never once says He is not God.

blü 2 said:

As I said, I bogged through 15 of your citations and NONE of them was a claim by Jesus to be God. If you can't get one in 15 right, why would I think you'd get one in 150 right?

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Lets be honest in our discussions dear friend. Your kind of repeating yourself a bit here. Where did I ever say to you here is 15 references saying Jesus is God? If I never made those claims why are you pretending that I did (paper dragons)? In post # 347 linked you were also directly told that the list you are trying to respond to of 15 scriptures (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1) was a list that included scriptures showing that either (1) Jesus is God and (2) or that Jesus was creator of heaven and earth and (3) or Jesus was in the beginning with God. That list was never a list of scripture directly stating Jesus was God like you are claiming. All you did is select some scriptures from that list and added other scriptures that were not included in my list while ignoring all the scriptures directly stating that Jesus is God. So in response you tried to build and tear down a paper dragon claiming that I was saying that every scripture provided to you earlier was a reference to Jesus being God? It never was so why pretend that was what I was saying? Its simply being dishonest. I then tried to help the discussion by posting the scriptures that directly state the gospel writers and Apostles stating Jesus was God our as full scripture references that you ignored and did not respond to more than once now (e.g. post # 457 linked). You just continue ignoring them. The linked post provided here and elsewhere prove what I am saying to you is true so why pretend that it is not true when it is?

blü 2 said:

And as the record shows, when I invited you to discuss just one of my examples of Jesus saying, you didn't ─ instead you filled the sky with more fluff, which falls within the principle I mentioned in my preceding paragraph.

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The record shows your not telling the truth. I post the following link as evidence and proof of this fact showing I spent considerable time addressing your example scripture from 1 Corinthian 8:6 proving that this scripture was supporting everything I was already sharing with you that Jesus is God in post # 366 linked. Your response was to simply ignore everything in this post that what was written to you and not respond to it. I then invited you then to address this post and show me why you do not believe this post does not address your scripture. To this very moment you have responded with silence. Post # 366 linked addresses your example in detail. I invite you again dear friend, if you disagree with my response to your scripture example address my linked post showing why you disagree and prove your claim. If you cannot the only one filling the sky with fluff is you because your not being honest.

blü 2 said:

The truth is that you don't have a single example of any biblical Jesus saying "I am God."

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I see your trying to change your argument a little here? Before your argument has been that the gospel writers and the Apostles did not think Jesus was God. Then I responded to you claims proving that they were false claims by sharing these scriptures with you with the gospel writers and Apostles calling Jesus God. For example as posted elsewhere...

John states that Jesus is God here...

• JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.

John makes it very clear what he is talking about Jesus being God again here...

• 1 JOHN 5:20 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son JESUS CHRIST HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.

The Apostles Thomas also believed Jesus was God here...

• JOHN 20:28 28 Thomas answered him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!”

As does the writer of Hebrews quoting God here...

• HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.

Peter knew Jesus was God and states so here...

• 2 PETER 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

Paul also shows his belief that Jesus is God here...

• TITUS 2:1313 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

• PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 5, Let this mind be in you, which was also in CHRIST JESUS: 6, WHO BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD

The Jews continued to seek to kill Jesus because he they claimed Jesus was claiming himself to be God here...

• JOHN 10:30-33 30 I and the father are one. 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.”

The Angel even calls Jesus God here..

• LUKE 1:35 “The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and HE WILL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD”

As shown above there is many scripture examples from the Apostles all stating that Jesus is God. The Apostles believed that Jesus was God and said so in the scriptures we have today. So now your trying to slightly change your argument thinking that I would not notice. You have changed your argument from the the gospel writers and Apostles did not believe Jesus was God to Jesus never said that He was God? I am happy to show you that this claim is also false if you can be honest here with me and admit to me that the Apostles believed that Jesus is God as shown from the scriptures above? Do you now concede that the Apostles believed that Jesus was God?

blü 2 said:

And I have given you examples of all five models stating that they're not God. Which you refuse to discuss individually.

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Lets be honest Blu, show me a single scripture with Jesus stating He is not God. You can't because there is no scripture. Yet as shown above there are plenty of scriptures showing that Jesus is God as testified by the Apostles who know Him so that is what the Apostles believed and that is what they said verbatim. Jesus is God (scriptures provided above). I have discussed all your claims it is you that refuses to discuss my responses to you and address all the scriptures that are in disagreement with you. So lets talk more when you are willing to discuss my posts and the scriptures provided in them that are in disagreement with you.

Have a nice day dear fiend.

3rdAngel said:

I have no idea what your talking about. What is all five models of Jesus mean? The apostles and gospel writers already knew and called Jesus God as shown in post # 457 linked

Jesus never once says He is not God.

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As I showed you, he says he is not God some twenty times.

And invited to discuss just one of those examples, you ran away.

3rdAngel said:

Sure I provided scripture showing Christians are to keep the Sabbath. Just like Christians are not to lie, steal or murder. Jesus and the Apostles all kept the Sabbath as did the early Church. It is you that cannot show me a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods' 4th commandment which is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give a the knowledge of what sin is when broke (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest now have you. Your not seriously trying to argue now that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished now are you by quoting an out of context Ephesians 2:15 now are you? That interpretation of the scripture is pretty much in contradiction to the whole bible and all the writings of Jesus and the Apostles in the new testament. Are you really trying to argue that for Christians that the 10 commandments of which the 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath we are now free to disobey? Think about your post for a minute. If your trying to pull a single scripture from Ephesians 2:15 and your trying to argue that it is a reference to Gods' 10 commandments then how do you reconcile that interpretation of scripture with all the scriptures from Jesus and the Apostles that teach they are to be obeyed? Your interpretation of Ephesians 2:3 is saying it is now alright for Christians to go out and lie, steal commit adultery, murder, use Gods name in vain, make idols and have other Gods. I hope that is not what your saying. Gods' 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath is one of those same commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is in the new covenant.

FYI read the whole chapter of Ephesians 2 for context. Don't simply believe what others are trying to teach you. Prayerfully study God's Word for yourself. According to the scriptures, the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles is the separation between them by the commandments contained in “ordinances (Ephesians 2:15). God’s 10 commandments were never contained in ordinances. The Greek word used here is the same words used in Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting contained in ordinances that were against us.” The Greek word used here for “ordinances” is δόγμα (dógma | G1378) which means a civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law that was against us. So the reference here is not to God’s 10 commandments but the laws in “ordinances” (civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law) that separated Jews from the Gentile believers in Ephesians 2:15. The laws of separation were the laws for remission of sins. Genetile believers were not allowed to partake of the laws for remission of sins unless they became proselytes or converted to Judaism. Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition by His death putting and end to the old covenant laws for remission of sins (earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings) that all point to Christ and were fulfilled in Him at his death nailing them to the cross *Colossians 2:14 hat he might create in himself of the two (Jew and Gentile believers) one new man, so making peace and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby (sin and its penalty of condemnation and death) *Ephesians 2:15-16.

Take Care

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I am no less a Christian than you and if you think that you have to keep the Sabbath to be a Christian then that might mean that you are making your salvation through works of the law.
Jesus was a Jew who kept the Sabbath. The early Church were Jews and kept the Sabbath. The later Church became more Gentile and we know they did not need to seek salvation through law keeping just as the Jewish Christians who kept the Sabbath did not.
It is true that no scriptures tell us to keep the Sabbath, if you think there is such a scripture then show it. The 10 commandments are part of the law that was taken away by Jesus on the cross and with the New Covenant.
But I'm not telling you not to keep the Sabbath, that is up to you, but don't do it to be saved, the cross is the completed work for that. The gospel is one of grace and faith and obedience to the Commands of Jesus, to love God and neighbour.
It is everything that does not come from faith that is sin. (Romans 14:23)

Subduction Zone said:

They can't be. Luke clearly has it ten years later.

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There is a possibility of a census at the time Matthew indicates.
For me I take that possibility as evidence enough that Matthew and Luke can harmonise.

Was Luke Wrong about the Census?

Brian2 said:

There is a possibility of a census at the time Matthew indicates.
For me I take that possibility as evidence enough that Matthew and Luke can harmonise.

Was Luke Wrong about the Census?

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No, there isn't. You had to stoop so low as to use a lying source. Find a valid one.

Subduction Zone said:

No, there isn't. You had to stoop so low as to use a lying source. Find a valid one.

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And you say it was a lying source why?
Maybe this next one is better. It is a Christian source however so maybe not.

A Brief Comment on the Census in Luke 2 - Associates for Biblical Research

blü 2 said:

Yes. Without that, the category "real prophecy" doesn't exist ─ or more accurately, continues not to exist.

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So we cannot have evidence for real prophecy until real prophecy is known to exist. Weird.

blü 2 said:

Exactly so ─ and never more ludicrously than in Matthew eg

The author of Matthew requires Mary to have been a virgin because the LXX in translating Isaiah 7:14 rendered Hebrew 'almah, young woman, as parthenos, virgin;

He invents the unhistoric 'Taxation Census' story to get Jesus to be born in Bethlehem to “fulfill” Micah 5:2

He invents the unhistoric 'Massacre of the Innocents' story to get Jesus into Egypt to “fulfill” Hosea 11.1.

He absurdly sits Jesus across a foal and a donkey to ride into Jerusalem "to fulfill prophecy" (Matthew 21:2-5) in Zechariah 9.9;

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Matthew would have known Mary was a virgin.
It was Luke who had the census which btw could have been. Lack of definite evidence is not evidence that it did not happen.
Same as above, it could have happened. Herod was a mass murderer and the murder of a few more is nothing for Josephus to write about, if he ever even knew about it.
The foal/donkey thing is just a matter of translation and interpretation.

blü 2 said:

The trial of Jesus before Pilate. >This link< may make things clearer. (I'm not a Carrier fan, but he's summarizing work by protestant theologian Ted Weeden jr.)

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Isn't that weird. Jesus ben Ananias lived in 66AD. Anyone else and it would be evidence that they copied from Jesus. Not so when it is about prophecy and about Jesus of Nazareth. First assume prophecy is BS then place the writing of Mark etc after the temple destruction and then say Mark copied from Jesus Ben Ananias.
I wonder how the prophecy of Jesus Ben Ananias is shown to BS, or is that also just assumed.

blü 2 said:

As I said, if it's true he spent a week or two with the leaders of the proto-Christian church in Jerusalem, including "the brother of the Lord", there's nothing in his subsequent writing to suggest he learnt any more about the earthly life of Jesus than he knew before. So either he didn't bother to enquire because he wasn't interested, or he was told but never mentioned it because he wasn't interested ─ that seems a fair hypothesis to me.

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That sounds like rubbish to me esp when Paul was not a gospel writer. Did the apostolic fathers write about Jesus life? No they were busy writing other things but it shows nothing about what they knew of Jesus life.
As I pointed out, Paul spent time in Christian Churches of the time and would have learnt as much as other Christians about Jesus life.

blü 2 said:

I don't presume it, I know it from its definition. If it were real ─ found in the world external to the self ─ then it would be one of the areas of study within the physical sciences. But it isn't. All we need to alter that is a satisfactory demonstration of an authentic real supernatural event, so I invite you to do so, since I can be persuaded by satisfactory evidence. Until then, I continue to rule out magic as an element of reality.

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This is the same as above. There is no evidence for the supernatural until it is shown to exist and that it is not supernatural. To disbelieve you must first disbelieve.

blü 2 said:

I don't presume that Mark was written after 70 CE, I conclude it from the evidence I mentioned.

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What evidence, that the supernatural is BS and that Mark Temple prophecy was copied from Jesus Ben Ananias which was also assumed BS instead of copied from Jesus prophecy which the real evidence shows was in the 50s AD probably.

blü 2 said:

Neither Paul, nor any of the authors of the gospels, ever claims to have met an historical Jesus; and nothing suggests any did.

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Paul claims to have met Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Mark does not.
Luke does not but Luke claims to have gotten the stories from those who were there from the beginning. (as historians do if they are lucky)
Evidence in John's gospel shows John to be John the apostle.
Matthew's internal evidence shows he could have been the tax collector/apostle in the gospel. Matthew's gospel was never doubted as authentic. But you don't accept the witness of the early church, you start of presuming that the gospels are BS because supernatural is BS and so they must have been written after 70AD.

blü 2 said:

That is, it was a purely internal mental event, according to Paul. It had no input from reality, the world external to the self. It was not based on facts that Paul personally observed. It was a vision, from the same mental stable as the dream and the hallucination.

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According to your imagination that is what it was. Paul however was someone knowledgeable on the Hebrew Scriptures and that is where he would go to be enlightened by God about the New Covenant and about the Messiah who was to suffer and die and rise again. God would reveal that Jesus was in the Hebrew Scriptures and that is what we see Paul preaching about in his letters.

blü 2 said:

Good point. What remains is that you can't get to God ─ "no man has seen God" ─ without Jesus.

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Jesus is the judge of the living and the dead and nobody will get to the Father except through the Son, because of that.

Brian2 said:

And you say it was a lying source why?
Maybe this next one is better. It is a Christian source however so maybe not.

A Brief Comment on the Census in Luke 2 - Associates for Biblical Research

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To be a Christian apologist one has to be willing to lie for Jesus. In the academic world when one is shown to be wrong one cannot pretend that never happened, yet that site has quite a few examples of people that were shown to have no clue, and yet their arguments are still there as if nothing happened. For example they still have William Lane Craig's fine tuning argument even after he debated Sean Carroll who explained how he got almost all of his science wrong. They just blithely ignore that debate.

This is an academic discussion, find academic resources.

I had to laugh at one of their own arguments. It seemed that they did not even understand the Bible story. Or perhaps what a universal census is. I still don't know what they thought that they were proving.

Here is some helpful advice, if you want to make a point use valid sources. I have not seen one apologist site that was not a Liar for Jesus. You may get your ideas from them, but you need to support them with valid scholarly sites.

blü 2 said:

As I showed you, he says he is not God some twenty times.

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No you didn't and your trying to change what you originally said. You originally stated that the gospel writers and Apostles did not believe Jesus was God. You were proven wrong as I provided you scripture with them calling Jesus God. Jesus never once said He is not God. If you disagree please provide the scriptures where Jesus states he is not God. If you cannot why pretend that he does?

blü 2 said:

And invited to discuss just one of those examples, you ran away.

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*** Mod Edit *** Your post and scripture example was answered and debunked here in post # 366 linked. Your response was to simply ignore everything in this post that what was written to you and not respond to it. I then invited you then to address this post and show me why you do not believe this post does not address your scripture. To this very moment you have responded with silence. Post # 366 linked addresses your example in detail. I invite you again dear friend, if you disagree with my response to your scripture example address my linked post showing why you disagree and prove your claim. If you cannot address the content of the post and scriptures provided that are in disagreement with you just be honest and say so. You do not have to if you do not want to dear friend. Just be honest about it. It is therefore you that is running away by not addressing any of my posts with all the scripture provided in them that are in disagreement with you.

Take Care.