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To be or not to be…

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I guess that depends.

Its one thing to politely bow and mumble with friends or family who would willingly put their hands in the 'namaste' position and be reverent if they walked into our family doing puja. I would comfortably pray with those who would comfortably pray with me. I feel we share a common goal in those situations, even if we don't share a common God.

However, if they're the type that would wait outside, or sit in a chair on their phone while it was finished, I'd return that favor, too.


Well yeah, it just seems like good manners to respect the practice of one’s hosts. It’s a simple enough thing to take off your shoes in a Moslem household, or cover your head at a Jewish funeral, etc. I’ve even been known to raise a glass to the Queen at a forces dinner, and I’m no monarchist. When in Rome, and all that…
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Well yeah, it just seems like good manners to respect the practice of one’s hosts. It’s a simple enough thing to take off your shoes in a Moslem household, or cover your head at a Jewish funeral, etc. I’ve even been known to raise a glass to the Queen at a forces dinner, and I’m no monarchist. When in Rome, and all that…

Do you not think that a host should respect the mores of guests?
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
Well yeah, it just seems like good manners to respect the practice of one’s hosts. It’s a simple enough thing to take off your shoes in a Moslem household, or cover your head at a Jewish funeral, etc. I’ve even been known to raise a glass to the Queen at a forces dinner, and I’m no monarchist. When in Rome, and all that…

Ideally. Though there are some that won't return these sentiments or simple actions. I wouldn't go through the motions for someone that wouldn't go through the motions for me.

Do you not think that a host should respect the mores of guests?

I think it can be tricky to keep everyone happy sometimes. I would never add prayer(to any deity) to event that was supposed to be secular, but I think some feel pressured to do so. Leave it out, you anger a few. Add it, you anger a few.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I think it can be tricky to keep everyone happy sometimes. I would never add prayer(to any deity) to event that was supposed to be secular, but I think some feel pressured to do so. Leave it out, you anger a few. Add it, you anger a few.

Those who don't want to join in prayer (for whatever reason) should not be made to feel guilty for not joining in. That said, I live in society that embraces secularism (laïcité)
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
Those who don't want to join in prayer (for whatever reason) should not be made to feel guilty for not joining in. That said, I live in society that embraces secularism (laïcité)

I fully agree.

I think there's different intents... there are some who will quietly and respectfully do(or not do) their own thing. Then, there's those who will get huffy(or, in worse situations, argumentative) that their 'way'(whatever that is) is 'The Way' and be an overall fart face about things.

I do suspect you're right about the cultural difference... I am sure there is less commotion about these things where you are than you'd find in the American South.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Do you not think that a host should respect the mores of guests?


Well I wouldn’t invite a Jewish vegetarian to my home and offer them bacon, obviously.

But if saying grace is a problem, how do you get around weddings? Many of them are still held in churches, even in secular England - and, I presume, France. Do you boycott them altogether, or just stay silent during the prayers?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Well I wouldn’t invite a Jewish vegetarian to my home and offer them bacon, obviously.

But if saying grace is a problem, how do you get around weddings? Many of them are still held in churches, even in secular England - and, I presume, France. Do you boycott them altogether, or just stay silent during the prayers?

But you would invite a non believer and impose your belief on them?


In the UK the people i know who got married didn't use a church but a registry office. Here in france it is the Maire who does the deed. Some couples will get their priest to bless the marriage, that requires a church ceremony. I've not been to a church blessing.

Funerals are usually held in church. I have attended funerals out of respect for the dead. This however is a totally different situation to inviting someone for dinner
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
But you would invite a non believer and impose your belief on them?


In the UK the people i know who got married didn't use a church but a registry office. Here in france it is the Maire who does the deed. Some couples will get their priest to bless the marriage, that requires a church ceremony. I've not been to a church blessing.

Funerals are usually held in church. I have attended funerals out of respect for the dead. This however is a totally different situation to inviting someone for dinner



I’ve been to a few dinner parties that were less fun than funerals tbh. Asking an atheist to say grace might have livened them up a bit.

You’ve seriously never been to a church wedding?
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I’ve been to a few dinner parties that were less fun than funerals tbh. Asking an atheist to say grace might have livened them up a bit.

You’ve seriously never been to a church wedding?

I wouldn't know what to say, would "thanks for the food" be ok?

Never. Though i probably would if invited but wouldn't get involved in the prayers.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Sometimes it is hard to avoid the two topics one is supposed to avoid. Oddly enough my family has no problem. We are lucky when it comes to politics. Even the conservative members could see that Trump was a disaster. But today I am cooking the turkey at my Seventh Day Adventist brother's place for Thanksgiving dinner.
I thought 7th Day Adventists didn’t eat meat.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
You'd need to explain why you'd want me pretending to pray to a God I don't believe in. Just seems like a strange request.

Don’t people in families make compromises all the time, for the sake of avoiding conflict? Saying grace seems a small thing to ask to keep someone else happy. Especially if it’s the someone who cooked the meal.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
What do you think?

It's past Thanksgiving but I figure I'll give you my two cents.

Always be yourself. If you have to lie, only do it by omitting facts. Don't tell anyone you are a Christian because they want you to be Christian. Just be yourself. I have atheists parents who celebrate every major US holiday, including the "Christian" holidays. You can be whatever you want and practice cultural Christianity; even the author of The God Delusion Richard Dawkins has come out as cultural Christian. And if you do celebrate major US holidays, you could easily be viewed as culturally Christian.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Don’t people in families make compromises all the time, for the sake of avoiding conflict? Saying grace seems a small thing to ask to keep someone else happy. Especially if it’s the someone who cooked the meal.

Well now...you might be assuming a little too much here.

If I'm in a church, I stand up at the appropriate times. I'd remove my shoes if that was culturally or religiously expected. I'd cover my head if entering a house of worship where that was appropriate. I'd even hold hands around a table if people were saying grace. I won't, however, pretend to pray to a God I don't believe in. To me that seems disingenuous, not courteous.

We don't celebrate Thanksgiving here, but if we look to Christmas, it's my home that the extended family comes to, and mine and my wife's cooking they enjoy, the both of us atheists. Our guests are welcome to give thanks to whomever they choose. But are you really suggesting we shouldn't extend that freedom to ourselves? Why???
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I guess I am a bit late for this. However, being a Christian is not such a bad thing, so there is no harm in pretending for a day just to keep peace in the family.
Having a family that refuses to accept your authentic self is a bad thing, and it usually comes with quite a bit of harm.

The problem isn't with the prayer itself; the problem is with being obliged to participate in the prayer.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It is great that whether or not I discuss politics and religion with family and friends, the bonds remain. The loyalty, remains. I am very appreciative of that.
Mutual respect and support can happen when we don't take religion too seriously.

IMO, for respect across religions to happen, religion needs to be seen as optional... as a hobby, basically.

You can't appreciate the garden someone made if the whole time you're looking at it, you're thinking about how it's a "sin" that they spent their time doing that instead of playing baseball as God intended.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Well now...you might be assuming a little too much here.

If I'm in a church, I stand up at the appropriate times. I'd remove my shoes if that was culturally or religiously expected. I'd cover my head if entering a house of worship where that was appropriate. I'd even hold hands around a table if people were saying grace. I won't, however, pretend to pray to a God I don't believe in. To me that seems disingenuous, not courteous.

We don't celebrate Thanksgiving here, but if we look to Christmas, it's my home that the extended family comes to, and mine and my wife's cooking they enjoy, the both of us atheists. Our guests are welcome to give thanks to whomever they choose. But are you really suggesting we shouldn't extend that freedom to ourselves? Why???

The average religious person cannot live their religion in all places in their life. One may have to go to work with people of all types and choices. This is also true in the market place and living with neighbors. The religious are forced to conform to the superego of culture in many ways; follow fads and obey civil law. Why is living in both or other worlds harder for the atheists?

I like how Paul in the Bible did it. He became all things to all people. He did not have to be linear to his clique as a Jew, but he could adapt to the ways of anyone he encountered, without being judgmental, since he was trying to reach each person on a personal level. Below the clique mask of the ego are real people.

When Jesus did away with law, that meant you were now free from the laws/rules of social cliques, able to move about freely. Avoiding something like religion or secularism, is not the same as being outside the law of cliques. The former means a part of you, has no choice, by law/rule making you less individual than you feel and think.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
The average religious person cannot live their religion in all places in their life. One may have to go to work with people of all types and choices. This is also true in the market place and living with neighbors. The religious are forced to conform to the superego of culture in many ways; follow fads and obey civil law. Why is living in both or other worlds harder for the atheists?

I like how Paul in the Bible did it. He became all things to all people. He did not have to be linear to his clique as a Jew, but he could adapt to the ways of anyone he encountered, without being judgmental, since he was trying to reach each person on a personal level. Below the clique mask of the ego are real people.

When Jesus did away with law, that meant you were now free from the laws/rules of social cliques, able to move about freely. Avoiding something like religion or secularism, is not the same as being outside the law of cliques. The former means a part of you, has no choice, by law/rule making you less individual than you feel and think.

Sorry, what of my stated behaviour do you think this applies to?
 
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