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none of them are true?

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I am interested :D

:)

To a large extent I ended up typing a few relevant thoughts in response to @Heyo just above. First off let me repeat, I've got no 'issue' with your belief. You can describe as you will, and your beliefs seem generally positive in terms of world view.

To me, once you move past a general belief, and start picking more particular Christian beliefs, you're moving past the point of being able to claim that God isn't the way we envisage him.

So...belief in God as an agnostic Christian makes some sense, and I can at least build a logical bridge to an interventionist God (since without that you really do seem to be a deist).

Perhaps, for example, you have no personal experience of God, but other people's claimed experiences are somewhat convincing to you, at least enough to nudge you across from 'pure' agnostic to agnostic Christian.

But claiming belief in particular aspects of God...like transubstantiation or the Trinity...yet still claim God is likely not as we imagine him seems tough to reconcile. They are very specific claims about the properties of God.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I think I am beginning to believe that ALL religions and belief systems are false and that none of them correspond to reality, to the way things are - hence none of them are true.

For a long time now I have believed that Atheism is wrong...

But I am now beginning to suspect that Theism is too and that the truth is beyond mere human comprehension: That we both don't and cannot know it.

However, I am inclined to think that there is something in existence that is vaguely similar to the human monotheistic God-concepts but that the reality of this thing is WAY beyond our comprehension, so we need to resort to metaphors, analogies, and mythology to take the place of an actual understanding.

And I think that a part of this involves anthropomorphising this "thing" (although perhaps this "thing" anthropomorphises itself to us?).

Animals (and this goes for humans) are only as intelligent as they need to be in order to survive and pass on their genes.

I think that humans don't need to understand the truth of existence to live as humans, hence we don't and cannot understand it.

But that there is no shame in this!

Just as a fly does not need to understand music or mathematics to live as a fly...

I believe that there may be a higher being or higher beings in existence.

And that we are to them as dogs are to us.

We need to get rid of the notion that we humans are the pinnacle of existence and can actually understand our predicament beyond the extent which we need to in order to survive and reproduce.

But I am still committed to living as a Christian! - however, I think there is more to the universe, and that Christianity is only one means of being a human out of many, it is not a means to knowing the actual truth but that it does provide believers with some truths to live by.

However, I believe that in the past [whatever it is that exists] has interacted with humans and is involved in our existence, to one extent or another.

So perhaps all religions have a bit of truth in them, without any of them representing the truth, as it exists beyond our limited comprehension????


There is a sense in which we rely on myth, allegory, allusion and metaphor to describe all phenomena, not just the divine. Objective reality, as expressed in philosophy by Immanuel Kant and others, in physics by the likes of David Bohm, and in many schools of Buddhism, cannot be directly known. Which is not necessarily to say that nothing is real, but rather that we experience the world symbolically, through interpretation.

It’s my personal conviction that no matter how far mankind may advance in either science or philosophy, it is through direct spiritual connection with the underlying creative energy which some call God, that we can best transcend the web of illusion separating us from the Great Reality
within and without us.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Interesting take. Thanks.



I would do whatever I thought necessary to avoid torture. My true self is not my body. It's not even my mind. It's the observer seated in the theater of consciousness, wherever and whatever that may be.

Agreed. It would be like a video game where I couldn't take off my VR headset and just head for the kitchen for a coffee.
I have to "beat" it (or solve it) before it will end.

The observer ... whatever, I'm not sure. Wherever, that's easy it's just behind my eyes. (Not too serious, but that's how it seems).

Incidentally, something I learned in meditation, it is possible to detach part of my "self" that watches the other parts. This is a good way to handle uncomfortable emotions. Let them be and just observe them as they run their course and fade away.

You reminded me of a hypothetical, which is kind of the opposite problem. You go for your colonoscopy, get your IV Versed, which creates amnesia for the experience, and wake up feeling fine. Later, you see a video of the procedure, where you are screaming bloodcurdling screams almost throughout, fighting to get away, having to be subdued by several people, your mouth covered to muffle the screaming, and you held down for more. I suspect that anybody else seeing that wouldn't have a first colonoscopy, but you already have, and it was easy as best you can recall. Would you go back for another one after seeing that?

There are questions to be answered before deciding. Is this the normal procedure, or maybe something that sometimes happens and is expected? Are these people actually taking advantage for your helpless state, for some advantage to them or maybe just for fun?

If it was an isolated experience, and given that I didn't seem to have suffered any permanent harm, I would (maybe should) trust that it was unlikely to be repeated. Otherwise I would do my best to make sure they never did that to another person. Unless ... and this may be what you are getting at, it emerges that all colonoscopies are like that and they are just following normal procedure with no malicious intent.

Would I consider that it didn't matter as I had no recollection of it? Would I decide that I was not prepared to subject myself to it, regardless? A good question. I'm not sure.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
No disrespect intended, but I’m not surprised. It was only a question of when the next shift would manifest.

Eddi seems to be totally open about his beliefs and feelings and has no problem sharing them.

What (I believe) you are seeing is his progression through "faith", not as a fait accompli as most people do, but a work in progress, with each step freely available to all.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I'm going to address your points in reverse, because it strikes me I might be misrepresenting my thoughts or what I'm seeing as important here.

So...I totally agree with what you're saying about an agnostic element to any belief, including Christianity. I self identify as an agnostic atheist as a nod to the fact that I don't know anything...I only suspect, or believe, or think. So by far the most important point is that I think it's great when people have an element of doubt, or humbleness or allowance in their belief systems, and I don't think @Eddi 's beliefs are at all 'bad'.

When talking about an agnostic Christian belief in my experience people tend to talk about concepts like believing in some sort of monotheistic God, and that Jesus walked among us. Increased specificity of dogma tends to be a sign of either a more specific belief, or of adoption without belief.

Using the Trinity as an example, claiming belief in the Trinity (as opposed to God) is a clear flag of a much more specific doctrinal position. It goes beyond mere Christianity, and was adopted to resolve very specific church schisms, and in relation to quite granular discussions around the nature of God.

If we can't know much about God, but suspect he exists, can we really say we believe in the Holy Trinity?

It's not a problem, per se, but I'd have a degree of cognitive dissonance I'd need to resolve in holding those positions simultaneously.

If it's mere utility (ie. Perceived value in assuming the Trinity is true) then sure, that's different. But belief?

Like I said, its the more minor of points to be made here. Explaining my view is all.

I would refer you to the writings of the late Marcus Borg. He identified as a Christian, but did not believe in most of the "supernatural" aspects of it. he did believe in a "god" of some form. He believed that many faith systems could be a vehicle for exploration (not like many paths to the top of the mountain, but one path and many vehicles).

He answered a question that springs to mind, why had he chosen Christianity? His answer was that he needed a community to support him, and Christianity was best for him as it was part of his culture. Imagine a typical "westerner" taking up Islam. He would not only have the belief system itself to learn, but also a "foreign" culture and even language to absorb in order to gain a full understanding.

So, was Borg a Christian? I leave that question open to the reader. I believe so.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
My suspicions very early on - as to not any one religion or all being true - morphed into a disbelief as to none being true (over time), even if so many religions do have relevant and useful beliefs and/or attitudes to life. But then so many also often come with attitudes and beliefs to which I just can't subscribe, and as mentioned by others, tend to cause so much harm. The most blatant of these being - attitudes and/or beliefs as to sexuality or gender, and (for some) attitudes towards females in particular. I suspect that these issues turn so many away from religions too. And these religions, being based in old texts, look more like foundations in sand than on rock - to me at least - given any believer has to take such texts on trust as to their validity. Plus the fact that these beliefs look all too like the explanations that humans might arrive at before they had sufficient knowledge so as to form accurate beliefs - and which is just another characteristic of partially informed intelligence - jumping to conclusions. :oops:
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I think I am beginning to believe that ALL religions and belief systems are false and that none of them correspond to reality, to the way things are - hence none of them are true.
For a long time now I have believed that Atheism is wrong...
But I am now beginning to suspect that Theism is too and that the truth is beyond mere human comprehension: That we both don't and cannot know it.
However, I am inclined to think that there is something in existence that is vaguely similar to the human monotheistic God-concepts but that the reality of this thing is WAY beyond our comprehension, so we need to resort to metaphors, analogies, and mythology to take the place of an actual understanding.
And I think that a part of this involves anthropomorphising this "thing" (although perhaps this "thing" anthropomorphises itself to us?).
Animals (and this goes for humans) are only as intelligent as they need to be in order to survive and pass on their genes.
I think that humans don't need to understand the truth of existence to live as humans, hence we don't and cannot understand it.
But that there is no shame in this!
Just as a fly does not need to understand music or mathematics to live as a fly...
I believe that there may be a higher being or higher beings in existence.
And that we are to them as dogs are to us.
We need to get rid of the notion that we humans are the pinnacle of existence and can actually understand our predicament beyond the extent which we need to in order to survive and reproduce.
But I am still committed to living as a Christian! - however, I think there is more to the universe, and that Christianity is only one means of being a human out of many, it is not a means to knowing the actual truth but that it does provide believers with some truths to live by.
However, I believe that in the past [whatever it is that exists] has interacted with humans and is involved in our existence, to one extent or another.
Agree to the first underlined.
Don't agree to the second underlined. We do not know what we will be able to know in future. We are not God's prophets.
Don't agree to the third underlined. There is no evidence for it.
Agree with the fourth underlined.
While the fifth underlined is true, since we are inquisitive (like all animals), allow us to make our search.
Why do you believe in the sixth underlined, since there is no evidence.
The seventh underlined is your choice and right.
Eighth underlined - interacted, if it exists separately, for which we have no evidence. If that is all that exists, then there cannot be an interaction.
 
Last edited:

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I think I am beginning to believe that ALL religions and belief systems are false and that none of them correspond to reality, to the way things are - hence none of them are true.

For a long time now I have believed that Atheism is wrong...

But I am now beginning to suspect that Theism is too and that the truth is beyond mere human comprehension: That we both don't and cannot know it.

However, I am inclined to think that there is something in existence that is vaguely similar to the human monotheistic God-concepts but that the reality of this thing is WAY beyond our comprehension, so we need to resort to metaphors, analogies, and mythology to take the place of an actual understanding.

And I think that a part of this involves anthropomorphising this "thing" (although perhaps this "thing" anthropomorphises itself to us?).

Animals (and this goes for humans) are only as intelligent as they need to be in order to survive and pass on their genes.

I think that humans don't need to understand the truth of existence to live as humans, hence we don't and cannot understand it.

But that there is no shame in this!

Just as a fly does not need to understand music or mathematics to live as a fly...

I believe that there may be a higher being or higher beings in existence.

And that we are to them as dogs are to us.

We need to get rid of the notion that we humans are the pinnacle of existence and can actually understand our predicament beyond the extent which we need to in order to survive and reproduce.

But I am still committed to living as a Christian! - however, I think there is more to the universe, and that Christianity is only one means of being a human out of many, it is not a means to knowing the actual truth but that it does provide believers with some truths to live by.

However, I believe that in the past [whatever it is that exists] has interacted with humans and is involved in our existence, to one extent or another.

So perhaps all religions have a bit of truth in them, without any of them representing the truth, as it exists beyond our limited comprehension????

Hi Eddi.

I agree with you that there is something we can never fully comprehend like the painting cannot know the painter.

This is a quote concerning this from Baha’u’llah.

To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving."...
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I never said otherwise.

No, but you implied he was kind of flitting from belief to belief like a butterfly in a field of flowers.

I suggested that he is doing what we all have done at some time, that is trying various beliefs on for size and then changing them. What he does that most of us don't do is tell everyone as he makes each step.
 
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