dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
a utensil
if it's magic, it's no different than the urim-and-tumim.
What happens in the mishkan, stays in the mishkan.
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Shoa of the Yid of God.
- Thread starter John D. Brey
- Start date
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
Jeremiah would beg to differ with your first statement:
4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
2 Kings 18:4.
2 Kings 18:4.
Concerning Moses serpent rod being called נחש–תן:
תַּן or תָּן only in plur. תַּנִּים and תַּנִּין m. a certain beast dwelling in deserts, Isa. 13:22; 43:20; 34:13 (whence מְקוֹם תַּנִּים Ps. 44:20; and מְעוֹן תַּנִּים Jerem. 9:10; 10:22; 49:33, used of the desert); it suckles its young, Lam. 4:3; and utters a mournful cry, Job 30:29; Mic. 1:8. Bochart (Hieroz. ii. p. 429) takes it to be great serpents, as if it were the same as תַּנִין, but amongst the Hebrews, R. Tanchum of Jerusalem correctly explains this word ابن اوى jackal, wild dog, so called from its cry (elsewhere Hebr. אִי plur. אִיִּים), compare Arab. تنَانُ wolf, both from the root תָּנַן No. 2.
Gesenius.
Part of my argument included the fact that "serpent" is always plural תנין (Exodus 7:9), and yet as a name it's written without the plural suffix. Argument being that names, particularly names of God (as Nehustan is) play games with the profane (human) text so that those who are too lawful, are too lawful to see the antinomian miracles associated with divine things (which don't abide by human conventions, declensions, or inflections).
Nehushtan is the most important divine name in the Tanakh and is thus hidden deeper, and behind more antinomian, thorny, grammatical, veils, than any of the other divine names. It's literally echad אחד ; it's singular, a hapax legomenon in the Tanakh. It reveals itself just one time, for the rarest of eyes able to see through all the veils to spy the divinity hiding behind pointy addendum (niqqud), as the personage hiding from the good people עשיר of the covenant behind a thorny crown (John 3:14).
I, with the prophets, am dumbfounded. Why would God hide himself (for a time) from his people? And we know, from the prophets, that it's just temporary. But still, why?
John
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John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
What, it's name is Dagon. Dag **means** fish. By your logic, this must be significant. The research refuting it was made by Christians or Christian sympathizers. They must be covering up the truth.
While exegeting Nehushtan as it's come up in our last few messages I was considering your post about the meaning of תן. Why is it not נחש–תנין? (Ironically it's plural in Exodus 7:9 when Moses is speaking of a singular serpent?)
So I noticed, for the first time, that you could read "Nehushtan" נחשתן as a "bronze" נחשת "nun": נחשת–ן.
Nun: The Messiah--Heir to the Throne. In Aramaic, nun means "fish." The mem, the waters of the sea, is the natural medium of the nun, fish. The nun "swims" in the mem, covered by the waters of the "hidden world.". . In Hebrew, nun means "Kingdom," and in particular, "heir to the throne."
Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh, The Alef Beit.
Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh, The Alef Beit.
Ibn Ezra claims that in Isaiah 48:19, the text is speaking of the offspring of a fish. I.e., if Israel had been true to the law, their offspring would be like the offspring of a fish. Rabbi Ginsburgh claims the nun (which means "fish") represents the messianic heir to the throne <Ἰ Χ Θ Υ Σ><.
In scripture, metals, because of their strength and longevity, represent divinity. Gold represents the highest, holiest. Silver represents lower elements of the godhead or divinity. Bronze, is metal mixed with non-metalic elements of the earth: represents a mixture of divinity and earthly elements.
Nehustan is the bronze deity: God, and man. Worse, as the bronze–nun (נחשת–ן) Nehushtan represents deity and humanity mixed or united in one idol forever.
Hezekiah, as with his latter-day Pharisaical saints, realized the antinomian nature of worshiping not just an undeniable idol, but an idol representing a mixture of deity (copper) and earthen material אדמה. So they broke the type and the archetype in the name of defending the Law from idolatry. And they're faithful and true to the letter of the Law (destroy idols and idolatry). So how could God hold them responsible for anything but defending the Law as so commanded?
John
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John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
If Nehushtan is thought of as a bronze-fish (נחשת נין) then, then, ala Professor Nahum Sarna's claim, Moses may be using Egyptian symbols to teach Jewish truths. The Egyptians worshiped a deity represented by a bronze fish --Oxyrhynchus--who, remarkably, was said to have swallowed the phallus of Osiris when Osiris was cut up and dumped in the ocean.
Osiris is the Egyptian equivalent of the Jewish Levithan: the lord of the sea/underworld; judge, jury, executioner.
He will swallow up the death victoriously.
Isaiah 25:8.
Isaiah 25:8.
And ala Oxyrhynchus:
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces and gavest him to be meat. . .
Psalm 74:14.
Psalm 74:14.
And when the Lord swallows the pieces of leviathan to gain victory over the dread lord of the underworld/sea:
He shall spread his hands in the midst of them as a swimmer spreads his hands to swim.
Corcorvado 25:11 (Isaiah).
Corcorvado 25:11 (Isaiah).
The Hebrew nun spells "fish" (נון) In Hebrew symbolism the nun is also a "sprout" (branch, rod, staff, ן) that represents the messianic-branch noted throughout the prophets. Nehusהtan is thus the perfect "bronze-nun/fish" and represents he who will swallow death, the lord of death, forever.
John
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
How do you differentiate copper vs. bronze in the text?
Jastrow, נְחשֶׁת 1
This seems to indicate נחשת is copper ( aka pure ) and נחשתן is bronze ( aka impure ). This fits with the previous entry on the suffix "תן-", which makes נחשתן = copper-y or copper-ish aka impure copper aka bronze?
If so, Moses fashioned the snakebite remedy from copper ("נְחַ֣שׁ נְח֔שֶׁת"), and Nehushtan was made of a different material?
The other thing to be aware of, Zohar brings a connection between Nun and deceit.
אֲמַאי אִקְרֵי הָכִי בְּנוּ''ן. אֶלָּא, כְּמָה דְאַתְּ אָמֵר (ויקרא כ״ה:י״ז) וְלֹא תוֹנוּ אִישׁ אֶת עֲמִיתוֹ. דְּהַשְׁתָא הִיא בְּאַנְפָּהָא נְהִירִין וְעַבְדָא אוֹנָאָה לִבְנֵי נָשָׁא, לְבָתַר מַחְיָא כְּחִוְיָא, וְשָׁצֵי וְקָטִיל (משלי ל׳:כ׳) וְאָמְרָה לֹא פָעַלְתִּי אָוְן. וְעַל דָּא הָכִי אִקְרֵי בְּנוּ''ן
Here's what the Pritzker Edition has ( Volume 9, pgs 195-196 )
"Why is nun called so? Well, as is said "וְלֹא תוֹנוּ" You shall not defraud one another ( Leviticus 25:17 ). For now, her face is beaming; yet she commits fraud against human beings -- afterward striking like a snake, destroying, and killing, and she says, "I have done no wrong" ( Proverbs 30:20 ). So she is called Nun."
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The link from Moses to Nehushtan still needs support.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The final nun is connected to the underworld... in Hebrew symbolism.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
As you noted previously, bronze includes impurities, so I'm not sure it's the best fit for your savior if it matches Christian theology.
Simply put, can anything bronze be considered literally perfect?
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
2 Kings 18:4 says Moses made the brazen serpent destroyed by Hezekiah. Are you implying this brazen serpent isn't Nehushtan?
נְחוּשְׁתָּן, נְחֻשְׁ׳ I m. (preced.) bronze. Midd. II, 3; Tosef. Yoma II, 4; Y. ib. III, 41ᵃ מפני שנ׳ מצהיב because bronze has the appearance of gold; (Bab. ib. 38ᵃ מפני שנְחוּשְׁתָּן מצוהבת היתה (from נחושת, v. preced.) because the bronze of which they were made was goldlike). Tosef. l. c. נ׳ קלנתיא היה (Var. נְחוּשְׁתָּא) it was Corinthian bronze; Yoma l. c. נחושת קלוניתא היתה (Ms. M. קלניתא); Yalk. Cant. 985.
Jastrow
Bronze's gold-lik appearance lends itself to the idea that it's a lesser God than a gold God: God-lite. And since the gold-appearance of bronze comes from non-metallic mixtures being mixed with the metal (copper) it's the perfect symbol for divine-incarnation: a god (gold) and man (non-metallic), that nevertheless looks like gold and not exactly like gold. Jesus looked like gold to Christians, and like not even a good imitation to Jews.
Btw, that's a great name for a thread/essay: Nehushtan: God-lite.
Oh, and Jastrow speaks of "Corinthian bronze." Nehushtan was richly appointed in Corinthian bronze according to Moses Montalban (BT Cordoba 320I).John <Ἰ Χ Θ Υ Σ><
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John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
It's literally undeniable (imo) that when Moses tells God that Israel won't believe he's spied God with his own eyes, God tells him to make a theophanic emblem of God so that he will carry this theophany in his right hand (Psalm 74:11; Isaiah 63:11-12), proving that he's seen God with his own eyes. As stated in a previous thread here:
The Talmud, as read by Rabbi Ellie Munk, asks how a copper snake could control life and death (Rosh Hashanah 29a). To quote Rabbi Munk, "The answer given is that when the Israelites raised their eyes to Hashem they were healed. . . when the people looked at the serpent at the top of the pole and held the thought that Hashem alone could cause a wound or its healing, then the healing soon followed."
The wording is interesting in that Rabbi Munk, speaking for the Talmud, seems to echo John 3:14-15. -----The Israelites were raising their eyes to Hashem when they peered at the serpent atop the pole. The Talmud is suggesting the serpent on the pole was designed to get the Israelites to cast their gaze toward Hashem. They’re healed by gazing up at Hashem.
In 2 Kings 18:4-5, the Israelites give the serpent on the pole a personal name, “Nehushtan.” They used the emblem pretty much as Christian's use the crucifix.
In a strange echo from the Gospels, after explaining that the Israelites were worshiping a personified serpent on a pole, Nehushtan, the very next statement reads : "He trusted in Hashem, the Hashem of Israel." . . . The Gospel documents that when they looked up at Jesus hanging on the cross the Israelites said: "He trusted in Hashem; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God" (Matthew 27:43).
John
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
The final nun is connected to the underworld... in Hebrew symbolism.
In Psalms, and the Gospels, the suffering servant is lifted, raised, out from מן, the underworld, by the power of God. Baptism, or the mikveh, is like that in symbolism: the water represents the underworld (perhaps this dark world) and rising out of it is resurrection.
John <השם><
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The problem is the nun is only going in one direction. Even if it comes back, it's not connected above.
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
Rabbi Ginsburgh claims the nun represents Messiah. As they say, the strong bend but don't break. The same Yitzchak Ginsburgh says the tsaddi is a bent over nun with a yod stuck in it's side. Messiah (the tsaddik) is bent, and even broken, and even has a thorn (yod) stuck in his side. He wears a crown of them, stuck in him; he bends, is broken, but repaired and lifted out of sheol.
John
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John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
גִּלָּיוֹן, גִּלְ׳, גִּיל׳ m. (b. h. גִּלָּיוֹן; גלי) 1) blank parchment, margin of scrolls. . .—2) (a satirical adaptation of ἐυαγγέλιον, v. אָיֶן) gospel. Tosef. Sabb. XIII (XIV), 5 הג׳ וספרי מינין; Sabb. l. c. הג׳ וספרי הצדוקים (Ms. M. הגליון … מינין) the gospels and books of heretics; [disputants, Sabb. l. c., take our w. in the sense of blanks]. Ib. sq., v. אָוֶן. —3) (v. Is. III, 23; cmp. גִּלְגְּלִין) a girdle of fine material. Gen. R. s. 19 (Ar. גליונים; ed. Koh. גולין, corr. acc.).
Jastrow (bolded emphasis mine).
John
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What can I say? I like how you're thinking. But at the end of the day Rabbi Ginsburgh says one thing; Rabbi Elazar says another. 1 to 1 it's a draw.
And when I see the final nun, it symbolises something else. It's not bent. The final nun does not contribute to a tzaddik.
Those are my issues, but, I don't need to dwell on it.